High ammonia, nitrates AND nitrites

[Cubeguy11]

Haha, on closer inspection turns out they had just push the algae around a bit and I thought they had eaten it!

[seabass]

Well, I promised pics of results from an API ammonia test; so here it goes.  First, this test kit was purchased in November of 2016, and (unfortunately) expired in August of 2021.  I'm wondering how this has affected my results.

You can see that there is a distinct green tinge as @brandon429 claims is always the case.  However, this was quite unexpected to me.

 

The below pic is from testing my reef tank back in 2013.  This is what I commonly see when I test a mature tank; and is a much closer match to an undetectable reading.

 

This has got me wondering why the results seemed non-negative, so I tested a holding bin with just rock (no life or ammonia source) and another tank with almost no bio-load.  The results were identical (which I believe is due to extremely low ammonia levels in all three of these samples).

 

My thought is that the reagents have settled or degraded with age.  Obviously I don't test for ammonia on a regular basis, but I think I'll order a new API kit just for comparison.  I'll be as transparent as I can with the results.  If I get similar results, I'll have to apologize to Brandon.  However, I expect this aberration was due to the age of the kit; we'll see, and I'll post the results.

[Tamberav]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:18 PM, Cubeguy11 said:

Sorry for the late response, here are the pictures:

 

You already got a lot of advice so I won't muddle that up

 

cute tank... I would probably add more rock at some point.

 

Is the shrimp hiding?

 

 

[brandon429]

Team

 

For sport and entertainment

 

Keep an eye on this live time thread, in about 12 days we're going to find out of updated cycling science has any actual utility. set a reminder to go check its outcome roughly June 14th. That gentleman has the most stuck cycle I've ever seen posted, #1 highest ammonia reading ever posted by an API owner lol.

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cycling-new-reef-tank-question.915492/

 

 

The reason to watch that thread is because he's about to move 2 thousand bucks worth of current bioload from another tank into that suspect tank on a specific date, after a water change, and that's a lot on the line. A failure here will be serious, and attained in public live time. but a win, that will go on page 31 like the others. 

 

That thread really doesn't have much application here, Cube's tank is already carrying bioload. that above is just plain fun to watch because it's pressure and nobody stepped up to assign an exact start date. I don't know if he has that much real ammonia...he didn't report his house smelling like chemical productions laboratory. he may have a good kit, a bad kit, he may have placed actual ammonia inside the test vial before testing, I don't know, but that's one. dark. ammonia. read. 

 

I have never seen all the ways folks can arrange a cycle actually stall, and by stall I mean kill all his living animals in front of us when he adds them in after a water change on a forecasted date. Not all cycle settings require a complete wait to oxidize huge amounts of ammonia, that may take this tank sixteen months of wait. you can shortcut the massive wait time on nonstandard cycles by replacing the load water above the bioslicks with clean water after a reasonable wait time. 

 

I figured only one or two clownfish were going in the new tank 

 

🙂

 

nope, surprise! it's a full blown reef worth two or three grand, all at once. get popcorn. if he follows the rules exactly, he'll win. if he customizes, hesitates, doses more stuff, he may not. enjoy. what use if updated cycling science if it can't deliver on a big job.

B

 

the specific method from new cycling science we're using is the water change after day ten trick. Old cycling science says any report from API is correct and that his bacteria are melting/dying. What is that in the reading, like 32ppm nh4? maybe 1000 ppm? it's so dark I can't tell lol.

 

but updated cycling science says his bioslicks are still forming, eating heartily, and will be ready after day ten (the ammonia drop line on a cycle chart) and we're also about to test again the tenet that nitrate and nitrite controls don't need to be factored in a display cycle. Those are givens as well, on the cycling chart and though day 12 isn't nitrite completion date (its day 25) we simply don't care, it's a neutral param.

 

 

Cube's tank is going to work out ok, we need some drama to watch build up yep

[Cubeguy11]

20 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Is the shrimp hiding?

Yeah he usually likes to stay at the mouth of a little cave in the back so you can’t see him in the picture.

[seabass]

35 minutes ago, Cubeguy11 said:

Yeah he usually likes to stay at the mouth of a little cave in the back so you can’t see him in the picture.

As Brandon stated, they are fairly sensitive animals.  So it's a very positive sign that everything is doing well.

[Cubeguy11]

That’s good, I got a pair of turbo snails for the diatoms a few days ago and I have been noticing something interesting:

the snails will go around and eat some algae for 6-12 hours before they “fall asleep” and stop moving for about 12-24 hours.

the problem with this is that the diatoms in my tank are growing fast and usually almost all of the snails’ progress will be reversed. Is this behavior normal, should I get more snails, will they stop doing this once they’re more acclimated?

[seabass]

Could we get a picture of the algae?  It could be film algae, or it could be diatoms.  Diatoms are very common at this stage of a tank, and they are fueled by silica.  The diatoms will usually bloom until the silica is used up.  I wouldn't get too many snails for this particular issue, as this is usually just a temporary condition.

[Tired]

Most animals spend some portion of the day eating, and some portion resting. 

 

You definitely don't want to add enough snails to eat all your ugly stage algae. They'll starve once the tank matures and stops growing tons of algae everywhere.

[Cubeguy11]

Sorry it’s a bit late but here is a picture:

The snails were active at the time of the picture by the way.

[seabass]

Definitely looks like diatoms.

[Cubeguy11]

6 hours ago, seabass said:

Definitely looks like diatoms.

Ok, should I just wait or should I use something to try to absorb the silica?

[seabass]

Most people just wait for the diatoms to use it up.  Seachem PhosGuard can adsorb it, but it will also reduce phosphate; and you don't want to bottom out phosphate.  So I'd suggest waiting it out.  If you really wanted, you could even siphon the diatoms off of the substrate (to export the silica).

[Cubeguy11]

ok good to know, I’ll probably wait it out but I might get a gravel vacuum eventually to help take it out.

[seabass]

On 5/31/2022 at 5:54 PM, seabass said:

My thought is that the reagents have settled or degraded with age.  Obviously I don't test for ammonia on a regular basis, but I think I'll order a new API kit just for comparison.  I'll be as transparent as I can with the results.  If I get similar results, I'll have to apologize to Brandon.  However, I expect this aberration was due to the age of the kit; we'll see, and I'll post the results.

So I just got a new API ammonia test kit.

 

Sample from an overfed 40 gallon reef tank with a pair of breeding clownfish.

 

Then I took two samples from the above reef tank; the first with the new kit, the second with the expired kit.

 

So as expected, there is no indication of ammonia in my mature reef tank; and the anomaly was due to the expired kit.

[Ratvan]

17 hours ago, seabass said:

So I just got a new API ammonia test kit.

 

Sample from an overfed 40 gallon reef tank with a pair of breeding clownfish.

 

Then I took two samples from the above reef tank; the first with the new kit, the second with the expired kit.

 

So as expected, there is no indication of ammonia in my mature reef tank; and the anomaly was due to the expired kit.

Have heard of this occuring but having that side by side comparison of the two vials definitely shows the issue, i might have to check my test kits shortly. 

[seabass]

I believe that a big part of this particular expired kit (which went bad), is the fact that it was opened and used back in 2016.  I'm speculating if I just opened this kit, that it might have been OK (despite the expiration date).  I'm guessing that it might be a little like sealed deli meat that's basically only good for a week after it's opened, despite not reaching it's printed expiration (or best by/use by/purchase by) date.

 

Now obviously these reagents will last longer than a week (so its comparison to meat isn't literal), but I feel that kits which have been opened several years ago, might be suspect (especially if you get unexpected results).  So use up your kits.  Kits that you opened several years ago might need to be replaced.

[Morpheus77]

So it is possible to get a 0 on ammonia with API? I keep hearing they give out a false positives at .25. Good to know.

[seabass]

21 minutes ago, Morpheus77 said:

So it is possible to get a 0 on ammonia with API? I keep hearing they give out a false positives at .25. Good to know.

Yeah, it's one of those things that keeps getting repeated (drives me crazy).  However, I don't believe that these are actually false positives; the results show actual total ammonia.  These low level, non-negative results might not be very harmful, and might not require any corrective measures.

 

Sure, there are documented cases where tanks have continued to produce non-negative results for awhile.  This is especially common with newer tanks.  But healthy, mature reef tanks can definitely produce negative ammonia results using API's test kit.

 

So when the kit shows a low non-negative result (without any visible signs of livestock distress), this doesn't mean that there isn't ammonia present.  Instead, it shows a slight spike in total ammonia.  Maybe not a big enough spike to cause concern, but maybe something to investigate.

 

However, with results over 0.25 ppm, I get more concerned because that's higher than normal for a fully cycled reef tank.  The sensitivity of API's allows us to more closely monitor levels (versus going from undetectable straight to dangerous levels).

[Morpheus77]

Good info. I was considering buying another brand, and still may, just to see the differences. I don't recall having major issues in my previous experience with reefs years ago using API on the Ammonia side. I do remember having a smorgasbord of other brands on trace elements. Anyway, thanks for the info.