High ammonia, nitrates AND nitrites

[Cubeguy11]

Hello, I recently started a new 20 gallon aquarium and I am almost 2 weeks into cycling. I am cycling with fish (2 clownfish and 1 cleaner shrimp). today I tested my water and my resutls were as follows:

 

PH: 8.0

ammonia: 0.25 ppm

nitrites: 0.50 ppm

nitrates: 20 ppm

 

I was considering doing and 20% water change but I'm not sure if that will stall the cycle. Any adive is greatly apreciated.

[seabass]

Water changes shouldn't be a problem.

[Cubeguy11]

Ok good to know I’ll probably do one tomorrow and hopefully the levels should start to go down.

[Tired]

Fish-in cycling is really hard on the livestock, and unnecessary. Wherever told you to do that gives bad advice.

 

With fish-in cycling, you have to keep the ammonia level as low as possible, without quite having zero, in order to minimize the harm to the fish. You should have been testing the entire time, frankly, and doing regular water changes. 

 

Are you using an API test kit? They're notorious for being inaccurate, particularly with ammonia. 

 

How much are you feeding? 

[Cubeguy11]

Yes I’m using an api test kit and I have some soft 1mm pellets that are meant for clownfish but the shrimp likes them too the shrimp usually eats 1-3 per day and the clownfish 5-10 respectively.

[Toomanymatts]

Did you start off with bottled bacteria?   Live rock?

[Cubeguy11]

Just now, Toomanymatts said:

Did you start off with bottled bacteria? 

Yeah I used fritz turbostart, it says its supposed to instantly cycle a tank but I guess not.

[Toomanymatts]

It gives it a good running start that's for sure.  I'd grab an ammonia badge so you can watch the ammonia in real time and pick up some seachem prime to neutralize the ammonia.  

[Cubeguy11]

OK I'll see if i can find an ammonia badge and I did actually dose the water with seachem prime a few days ago but everything is already back to it's previous levels.

[Toomanymatts]

Pretty sure you can do it every 24 hours.

[seabass]

From what I've read, Prime is basically just a dechlorinator.  Seachem's claims that it detoxifies ammonia don't seem to be valid.

 

However, API's ammonia test kits get an unfair rap.  It's actually a relatively good ammonia test kit, which can detect fairly low levels of ammonia.  Like most reagent kits, it tests for total ammonia versus free ammonia (which is what the Ammonia Alert Badge tests for).

 

Here's a decent discussion about it:  https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/424410-ammonia/#comment-6073875

 

Prime can also affect the color of most reagent test kits; while the Ammonia Alert Badge is not affected by use of Prime.

 

 

It's true that establishing a nitrogen cycle using fish is not a practice endorsed by most conscientious fish keepers.  Nitrifying bacterial cultures do help, but they do not instantly establish a robust biofilter as implied.

 

The deal with water changes while establishing the nitrogen cycle, is that they are very effective once the biofilter is processing more ammonia than is being inputted.  Before that, at best, they will just temporarily lower ammonia by the percentage of water changed; at worst, they can actually add back some ammonia due to contaminants commonly found in many salt mixes.

 

At this point, I'd recommend dosing something like MicoBactor7 daily until the biofilter is built up.

 

[seabass]

14 hours ago, Cubeguy11 said:

ammonia: 0.25 ppm

nitrites: 0.50 ppm

nitrates: 20 ppm

About your levels.  0.25ppm using API's ammonia kit probably doesn't indicate a fatal level of free ammonia (see the linked discussion above).  Nitrite is not very toxic in a marine environment.  Nitrate of 20ppm is fine in itself.  You can use water changes to help keep nitrate down to 10ppm (which is a more common value).

[brandon429]

There’s a neat perspective that also may apply worth investigating:

 

#1 no symptoms again

 

 

-all these fish-in cycle posts are told they’re harming fish, but fish aren’t acting harmed. the title of the post is a non digital test read concern, not an actual concern about bad outcomes in the tank we can see

 

 

#2 all fish in cycles show these trends when read on non digital kits

- and all digital meters showing .00x nh3 levels disagree with the non digital meters charted for any day of a bottle bac cycle. We can’t really make rules about cycling procedure as long as this conflict exists. Find which params are correct, make the rules only off that discovery. We should stop accepting any stated param as a fact, we haven’t even seen the actual ammonia reading here to apply nh3 conversion rules to it, then match it up with fish acting fine. The two markers will indicate ammonia was in control, the whole time.

 

 

#3 Fish disease is the #1 killer of our fish collectively, because bottle bac makers have the easy part down…initial ammonia control is easy. No cycling threads discuss disease prep as the actual constant risk. Old cycling science comes at the expense of disease prep discussion which is all trackable, + symptoms posts. Cycling losses of fish has so few posts I can’t find any that are current, and proven not an acclimation issue.

 

#4 if no remedial action was taken here in this thread, the same fish behavior will continue- acting just fine. Things were ok from day one, it’s why that bottle bac costs so much. Our fear as cycle umps is aimed at the wrong risk I’m seeing in web patterns.

 

As SeaBass said and once told me nine years ago before I understood nh3 vs nh4 and it’s criticality to cycle troubleshoots, these tests most likely aren’t misreads. We have all been trained to apply the wrong rule sets to cycling is my takeaway. By excluding nitrite from the factor and by applying nh3 conversion readings to the ammonia test vial, we free up these bottle bac cycles to accurately aim concern: disease has been vectored in since the start. Look for some challenges anywhere between now and November, if fish get lost and get replaced by then, don’t suspect any parameter you can measure as the cause. 

 

 

 

 

We have all been trained to ignore certain safety confirming details, and incorporate only what any test kit says without verification required. Reef tanks don’t run at zero nh3 says any digital test kit owner for devices that read in the thousandths ppm nh3, so the fact api rarely shows zero remarks good on api, not bad.

 

the issue is our rule set needs updating, disease control is now more important than ammonia worry because there aren’t examples of ammonia noncontrol we can find after nh3 conversions are applied.

 

[brandon429]

SeaBass I truly thought that above was a fair summary of the changing landscape of cycling dynamics and start date tracking in the hobby, I tried to win back API  🙂

 

 

I talked bad about the test kits ten thousand times there isn’t a way I can go back and edit it all, but repositioned against updated cycling science rules the classic .25-.5 is a sign of health, not wreckage.
 

there must be fifty thousand full running reefs that post .25-.5 as symtomless measures from api…as nh4, the tanks are healthy. It’s a good number, not a bad number 

 

 

 

 Now we can all start picking on the few that post hard yellow ammonia zeroes lol as misreads, api can’t win it seems 

 

 

if api registers actual level .002 nh3 as yellow zero, and then light green .25 when seneye or hach + calibrated pH probe would measure .006 nh3, both well within safe zones, then this explains the constantly happy fish found in fish+bottle bac on day one posts. It would explain the entire history of api’s accusation base. It would indeed vindicate api from all its accusations.  We are lacking toxicity training in the hobby, *any* ammonia seen is seen as bad when in fact low levels are good for the system and provides energy substrate to thousands of organisms in the loop. 
 

toxicity studies linking symptomatology to accurate digital nh3 trending measurements will show ammonia control predictable and consistent and rather fast in today’s display tank cycles. If we want to lose less fish in the hobby we must place all concern formerly given to ammonia and nitrite into fallow and quarantine/ at minimum observational quarantine disease prep.

 

 

[euphyllinme]

I would recommend trying Brightwell Aquatics Microbacter-7. Really works well for cycling a tank.

[Cubeguy11]

Ok I think that the best course of action is to dose more prime (in case it does detoxify ammonia) and to do some water changes. As for weather or not I should have done a fishless cycle, I would probably do a fishless cycle for any future tanks I get so that there is more room for error. I will also probably get microbactor7 because alot of people are recomending it to me.

[brandon429]

Those actions won’t help, because you can see by looking at your fish tank there’s nothing wrong with it. You would be adding a random mix of chemicals to a tank running fine, in response to a perceived ammonia noncontrol event.

 

 

how your tank looks matters when it comes to cycle assessment. When it’s running normally don’t find reasons to make a guess response.

[Cubeguy11]

1 hour ago, brandon429 said:

SeaBass I truly thought that above was a fair summary of the changing landscape of cycling dynamics and start date tracking in the hobby, I tried to win back API  🙂

 

 

I talked bad about the test kits ten thousand times there isn’t a way I can go back and edit it all, but repositioned against updated cycling science rules the classic .25-.5 is a sign of health, not wreckage.
 

there must be fifty thousand full running reefs that post .25-.5 as symtomless measures from api…as nh4, the tanks are healthy. It’s a good number, not a bad number 

 

 

 

 Now we can all start picking on the few that post hard yellow ammonia zeroes lol as misreads, api can’t win it seems 

 

 

if api registers actual level .002 nh3 as yellow zero, and then light green .25 when seneye or hach + calibrated pH probe would measure .006 nh3, both well within safe zones, then this explains the constantly happy fish found in fish+bottle bac on day one posts. It would explain the entire history of api’s accusation base. It would indeed vindicate api from all its accusations.  We are lacking toxicity training in the hobby, *any* ammonia seen is seen as bad when in fact low levels are good for the system and provides energy substrate to thousands of organisms in the loop. 
 

toxicity studies linking symptomatology to accurate digital nh3 trending measurements will show ammonia control predictable and consistent and rather fast in today’s display tank cycles. If we want to lose less fish in the hobby we must place all concern formerly given to ammonia and nitrite into fallow and quarantine/ at minimum observational quarantine disease prep.

 

 

Should I at least do water changes to be safe? The tank looks fine and the fish are acting normally or should I just wait. (Sorry I quoted the wrong one I mean to do Brandon429s most recent post)

[Cubeguy11]

16 minutes ago, brandon429 said:

Those actions won’t help, because you can see by looking at your fish tank there’s nothing wrong with it. You would be adding a random mix of chemicals to a tank running fine, in response to a perceived ammonia noncontrol event.

 

 

how your tank looks matters when it comes to cycle assessment. When it’s running normally don’t find reasons to make a guess response.

Ok should I still do water changes, the tank looks fine and the fish are acting normally.

[mje113]

What is an ammonia badge?

[seabass]

A couple of thoughts:

3 hours ago, brandon429 said:

#1 no symptoms again

-all these fish-in cycle posts are told they’re harming fish, but fish aren’t acting harmed. the title of the post is a non digital test read concern, not an actual concern about bad outcomes in the tank we can see

The hobby hasn't really come back around to cycling with fish quite just yet.  Maybe it will.  Although traditional ammonia test kits usually do show increased amounts of ammonia when using fish to establish the nitrogen cycle.  With the hardy fish that are usually used for this method, I agree that we usually don't see direct signs of harm.  Although the thought is that some unseen harm (or discomfort) might result.

 

So while it might be possible to cycle a reef tank without apparent harm using fish and a bottled nitrifying bacteria culture,  we can totally use products available today to cycle our aquariums without the use of livestock as an ammonia source.  The reasoning here is that exposing livestock to ammonia is avoidable.

 

 

3 hours ago, brandon429 said:

#2 all fish in cycles show these trends when read on non digital kits

- and all digital meters disagree with the non digital meters charted for any day of a bottle bac cycle. We can’t really make rules about cycling procedure as long as this conflict exists. Find which params are correct, make the rules only off that discovery. We should stop accepting any stated param as a fact, we haven’t even seen the actual ammonia reading here to apply nh3 conversion rules to it, then match it up with fish acting fine. The two markers will indicate ammonia was in control, the whole time.

Maybe not all, but slight elevations of ammonia readings is pretty common.  And like you state, most don't result in any discernible harm.

 

Apparently there is some disagreement in test results from different types of kits.  My argument is that kits like API are reflecting actual changes.  The fact that these changes are seemingly not detectable by digital test kits seems like a shortcoming of those particular kits.  Although I don't disagree that these modest elevations don't seem to pose a significant danger to the livestock we keep.

 

 

3 hours ago, brandon429 said:

#3 Fish disease is the #1 killer of our fish collectively, because bottle bac makers have the easy part down…initial ammonia control is easy. No cycling threads discuss disease prep as the actual constant risk. Old cycling science comes at the expense of disease prep discussion which is all trackable, + symptoms posts. Cycling losses of fish has so few posts I can’t find any that are current, and proven not an acclimation issue.

Good point about disease and parasites.  These are proven killers.

 

 

3 hours ago, brandon429 said:

#4 if no remedial action was taken here in this thread, the same fish behavior will continue- acting just fine. Things were ok from day one, it’s why that bottle bac costs so much. Our fear as cycle umps is aimed at the wrong risk I’m seeing in web patterns.

You're right, the fish should be fine as is.  Much of my response was intended for instruction (to be used by the original poster in the future, or others following along looking for best practices).

 

Do fish suffer from exposure to ammonia?  There are many articles written which discuss some of the effects of ammonia on fresh and saltwater fish (as well as other livestock):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8614401/

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/

 

Limiting exposure seems like a good general practice.

 

 

3 hours ago, brandon429 said:

Reef tanks don’t run at zero nh3 says any digital test kit owner for devices that read in the thousandths ppm nh3, so the fact api rarely shows zero remarks good on api, not bad.

+1

 

The same is true in the ocean, where 0.000 ppm ammonia is not the case.  Our hobby grade kits have typically not been accurate enough to show typical low levels, so we have been trained to look for test results which show that ammonia is undetectable.

 

 

3 hours ago, brandon429 said:

SeaBass I truly thought that above was a fair summary of the changing landscape of cycling dynamics and start date tracking in the hobby, I tried to win back API some honor 🙂

Very fair indeed.  Disease should be a bigger concern.  Luckily, I'm seeing more interest in quarantine and even prophylactic treatment of common diseases and parasites.  I appreciate the nod to API.  It's a common (maybe the most common) test kit; and I feel that it does provide information about the relative values of total ammonia in our tanks (showing results before they are noticeably harmful to our livestock).

 

 

3 hours ago, brandon429 said:

updated cycling science rules the classic .25-.5 is a sign of health, not wreckage.

I'd disagree about levels over 0.25 ppm.  I feel that this is a definite warning of higher than normal levels, which I'm not comfortable in exposing livestock to.  However, I've become much more comfortable with API readings that approach 0.25 ppm.

 

 

3 hours ago, brandon429 said:

Now we can all start picking on the few that post hard yellow ammonia zeroes lol as misreads, api can’t win it seems 

I get clear undetectable readings from rock bins that I keep without livestock in them (which I can use as a reference).  However, I often get results which are pretty close to undetectable with my mature reef tanks with small bio-loads.

 

But I like not seeing the term "false positives" being associated with API's ammonia kit.  I feel that people can use API's kit to show relative changes in ammonia levels (and possibly learn what has caused them).  I do wish that their color chart would better reflect danger from NH3 (in some form of conversion within a pH range of 7.8 to 8.2).  However, I doubt that we will see changes to the existing color chart; so we can learn to use the results provided (and maybe not freak out whenever we seen non-negative test results).

[seabass]

3 hours ago, Cubeguy11 said:

Ok I think that the best course of action is to dose more prime (in case it does detoxify ammonia)

From everything that I'm reading lately, Prime will do nothing to detoxify ammonia.

 

 

2 hours ago, Cubeguy11 said:

Should I at least do water changes to be safe?

Shouldn't hurt anything.  And water changes can help you manage nitrate levels.  You could do water changes to help reach a nitrate target (say 10 ppm).

 

 

1 hour ago, mje113 said:

What is an ammonia badge?

Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge: https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-Ammonia-Alert-Year-Monitor/dp/B01HHA4ITY/

[Cubeguy11]

Alright good to know, i'll just do water changes until it regulates itself. Thanks for your help everyone, I'll give updates in a day or two!

[brandon429]

All seneye machines on display tank cycles show compliance at the start, not a buildup. How can we rectify the sheer numbers of non stuck cycles on new digital kits when in contrast to non digital kits that somehow cause 99% of owners to take a hesitation stumble or purchase? A doubt happens using the old kits on the old rules of measure (must get zero ammonia to be safe, anything non zero is a stuck cycle is old cycling science)

 

 

calibrated seneye: is already set and running within spec on a matured reef, so baselines are known. Then the device is moved into a new cycling tank or study tank, it’s nh3 readings are very calibrated for the measure. 
 

 

cycles are pretty much controlled day one, knows any seneye owner. Our hobby is replete with multi source bacteria inputs

 

we should be able to locate at least five, let’s say, threads showing obvious ammonia noncontrol with symptoms. But we can’t, it’s all fish disease posts past the cycle wait time, and .2 ammonia readings like everyone posts even in the normal tanks. If we are on a continuum of harm to fish used with bottle bac day one, I’m expecting to see more losses vs all wins.

 

 

Dan here is really a good chemist. Look how he makes quick work of a claimed ammonia reading 

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/just-moved-ammonia-spike.914716/#post-10255942

 

 

and that’s not even taking into account studies that show side by side seneye vs api ammonia tests where ammonia reads high, darker green, on api while seneye has nh3 at safe levels on day one. There’s a direct mismatch between test kit types and tank symptoms, non digital kits take days to register a ten minute drop is what links are revealing as people post comparison measures.

[brandon429]

Cubeguy

 

please post a pic of your tank and a pic of your ammonia test near the color card 

 

Looking for:

dilution 

low bioload

high surface area 

clean water vs gray and cloudy 

fish not positioned in a hovering pattern, gasping for air.

 

the pic might look like a pic from a fully cycled tank, in my opinion there isn’t symptomless ammonia noncontrol in reefing. It’s either controlled or it’s not and the system crashes. There is not a hover just above safe phase in anyone’s tank, digital measures will reveal one day/ making the prediction.

 

 

**Seabass I do believe there are dead bottle bac attempts among all these speed starts. Agreed there are 

 

in those cases agreed fish resiliency and dilution and luck are carrying the fish until ability of the system sets in. Those instances are so few and far between, that I can’t find any seneye owners who cycle with fish on day one ever, ever posting a noncontrol event.