LiveAquaria's Diver's Den fish are apparently NOT disease-free.

[Tired]

Sounds pretty good. Quarantined, pre-treated fish that are eating and healthy before being offered for sale. I don't have the tank space for the big-ticket angelfish they sell in Diver's Den, but they had some cute little clown gobies. So, I ordered one. Figured that would be a good way to get a healthy fish, and not have to worry about getting a clown goby to eat. 

 

 

Yeah. Super healthy. Sunken stomach, not eating, and ich. Now I have to put a notoriously finicky-when-stressed eater into a bare quarantine tank and treat him before I can put him in my nice, microfauna-rich tank, instead of putting him in there and letting him get fat and healthy. If I'd put him straight into the tank without noticing the ich, I'd be looking at having to tear the whole thing up, catch him, and let the tank run fallow for two months. 

 

So, I emailed them about it. Sent them the picture, told them he has ich and isn't eating. Here's the reply I got. 

The "main cause" of ich is fish having ich pathogens on them. Which their quarantine and treatment is supposed to prevent. Yes, stress can let low levels of pathogens multiply, which is probably what happened here. Yes, increasing the life cycle of the ich and feeding garlic can be helpful against ich. But I can't feed garlic to a fish that's not eating, and "here's how to probably let the fish get the upper hand with the ich" isn't good advice. If somebody emails them and says "hey, my fish has ich", they should be giving advice on how to CURE the ich. 80F and garlic will not cure ich. I know some people take the ich management strategy, but even if you go with that, 80F and garlic does not "rid the fish of ich". It can help lower the amount of ich to a tolerable level. 

 

I wonder how many of those big-ticket fish have ich, too? Since they probably don't keep the little gobies in entirely separate tanks.

 

Good thing I didn't put this guy straight into my tank. If I bought some expensive angelfish from LA and put it right into a display tank, and it got the whole tank sick, I'd be mad as hell. I'm still pretty mad- I'm worried about this guy, and I wouldn't have ordered if I didn't think I was getting a disease-free fish. At least I noticed the ich before putting him in my tank.

 

Either they need to step up their game, or they need to put a disclaimer somewhere about "our fish may not actually be healthy". 

[Tamberav]

3 hours ago, Tired said:

Sounds pretty good. Quarantined, pre-treated fish that are eating and healthy before being offered for sale. I don't have the tank space for the big-ticket angelfish they sell in Diver's Den, but they had some cute little clown gobies. So, I ordered one. Figured that would be a good way to get a healthy fish, and not have to worry about getting a clown goby to eat. 

 

 

Yeah. Super healthy. Sunken stomach, not eating, and ich. Now I have to put a notoriously finicky-when-stressed eater into a bare quarantine tank and treat him before I can put him in my nice, microfauna-rich tank, instead of putting him in there and letting him get fat and healthy. If I'd put him straight into the tank without noticing the ich, I'd be looking at having to tear the whole thing up, catch him, and let the tank run fallow for two months. 

 

So, I emailed them about it. Sent them the picture, told them he has ich and isn't eating. Here's the reply I got. 

The "main cause" of ich is fish having ich pathogens on them. Which their quarantine and treatment is supposed to prevent. Yes, stress can let low levels of pathogens multiply, which is probably what happened here. Yes, increasing the life cycle of the ich and feeding garlic can be helpful against ich. But I can't feed garlic to a fish that's not eating, and "here's how to probably let the fish get the upper hand with the ich" isn't good advice. If somebody emails them and says "hey, my fish has ich", they should be giving advice on how to CURE the ich. 80F and garlic will not cure ich. I know some people take the ich management strategy, but even if you go with that, 80F and garlic does not "rid the fish of ich". It can help lower the amount of ich to a tolerable level. 

 

I wonder how many of those big-ticket fish have ich, too? Since they probably don't keep the little gobies in entirely separate tanks.

 

Good thing I didn't put this guy straight into my tank. If I bought some expensive angelfish from LA and put it right into a display tank, and it got the whole tank sick, I'd be mad as hell. I'm still pretty mad- I'm worried about this guy, and I wouldn't have ordered if I didn't think I was getting a disease-free fish. At least I noticed the ich before putting him in my tank.

 

Either they need to step up their game, or they need to put a disclaimer somewhere about "our fish may not actually be healthy". 

 

They have never done a true QT. It is observation/conditioning for minimum 2 weeks but ya they kind of trick people as it sounds good. 

 

The response is just scary. People will believe that... 80F is going to make ich reproduce faster. 

 

If you are looking for fish that have been QT, there are several at https://humble.fish/

 

@Humblefish to see their response.. lol

[Murphs_Reef]

Yeah that's poor. Ich doesn't just happen and doesn't just go away. It's brought in and is killed.. simple. 

 

Problem with many fish stores or wholesale is that they are likely to have many if not all tanks on a loop.. so one fish has ich then they are all at risk..

[Humblefish]

To be frank, LADD has gone to hell in a handbasket ever since Petco bought them out and then Kevin Kohen left. I think Petco has since sold them to another company.

[Tired]

Yeah, I was really expecting them to at least say "wow, you shouldn't have gotten a fish with ich, that's not supposed to happen". In a more professional way, of course. But, no! Just "speed up the life cycle and feed it garlic". 

 

Last time I order anything from them. I got some really nice fish from them years ago, including a green clown goby who ate right off. I'd heard that they weren't as good any more, but I thought at least their Diver's Den fish ought to be in decent shape.

 

I know there's a place that sells actually quarantined and medicated fish- TSM Aquatics or something like that. Or I could order from KP Aquatics and quarantine myself, since at least their stuff hasn't been in tanks with fish from all over the hobby and all over the world. Should have fewer germs. 

[Tamberav]

4 minutes ago, Tired said:

Yeah, I was really expecting them to at least say "wow, you shouldn't have gotten a fish with ich, that's not supposed to happen". In a more professional way, of course. But, no! Just "speed up the life cycle and feed it garlic". 

 

Last time I order anything from them. I got some really nice fish from them years ago, including a green clown goby who ate right off. I'd heard that they weren't as good any more, but I thought at least their Diver's Den fish ought to be in decent shape.

 

I know there's a place that sells actually quarantined and medicated fish- TSM Aquatics or something like that. Or I could order from KP Aquatics and quarantine myself, since at least their stuff hasn't been in tanks with fish from all over the hobby and all over the world. Should have fewer germs. 

 

😉

[Tired]

Oo! I hadn't noticed that was a thing, thanks. 

 

I called LA to ask what the clown gobies are eating (mysis shrimp soaked in Selcon), and I told the lady who answered the phone that I was very annoyed both with the sick fish and with their email response. She said she'll pass it along. 

[Jakesaw]

23 hours ago, Tired said:

I wonder how many of those big-ticket fish have ich, too? Since they probably don't keep the little gobies in entirely separate tanks.

I've watched a ton of videos with big beautiful fish and tanks on Youtube.  One of them I remember the guy had his entire level of his home as a fish tank with several hundred expensive fish and corals in there.  The guy had 5 Air Conditioners to cool the tank during hot months. 

 

During the video he was asked about quarantine, and the guy mentioned he has quarantined " EVERYTHING " before putting it in the main tank. There were 5 or 6 fairly large QT tanks in the basement at any given time.

 

I somehow brought in bubble algae. Its on all my rocks, powerheads ( I just completely cleaned em and ran in venegar for 40 min 2 weeks ago ) HOB filter intake. that I'm probably point to have to nuke tank with the Bubble Algae.  My 2 Emerald crabs are not keeping up with BA even though I see them snacking on it from time to time.  

 

I'm probably going to have to chemically nuke my tank and kill off all the algae in process to rid my tank of BA.  It really sucks when I have taken a year to get a solid base of coraline algae growing on my rocks.  

 

Frustrating part of the hobby I guess.

 

[Tired]

See, the thing is, I'd thought half the point of Diver's Den (aside from the WYSIWYG aspects and the rare fish) is that you get to avoid that part of the hobby. With all their boasting about the fish being healthy. Because there ARE places that fully quarantine and treat fish. 

[Tamberav]

25 minutes ago, Tired said:

See, the thing is, I'd thought half the point of Diver's Den (aside from the WYSIWYG aspects and the rare fish) is that you get to avoid that part of the hobby. With all their boasting about the fish being healthy. Because there ARE places that fully quarantine and treat fish. 

 

They never did a full QT but it wasn't as big a deal before when fish were generally healthier. Used to be able to order off LA side which comes from wholesalers and end up with a healthy fish most of the time. Also when Dr Foster and Smith owned LA, they would not send you a fish like that and if they accidently did, they would have refunded you but the company has now been sold twice and I don't even know who owns it now... which isn't a good thing when you haven't even heard of the place. Fish seem to be much worse for disease right now too from wholesalers so LA's old method pretty much isn't worth squat. 

 

It used to be "I get a fish that isn't fully QT but looks clean, healthy, and eating" but now it's kind of a gamble. 

[Jakesaw]

21 minutes ago, Tired said:

Because there ARE places that fully quarantine and treat fish. 

I would guess they are few and far between - even when advertised.  There is cost and real estate of QT fish. 

 

 How many people who come in door shopping would be willing to pay a 20 - 40 percent premium on fish to be quarantined.  

 

My method is - I make sure a fish has settled a few days in store before purchasing and want to see him eat. No eat - no purchase, regardless if they tell me he ate right before I came in store. 

 

Doesn't guarantee you won't get an unhealthy fish, but puts odds in my favor.

[Tired]

Their Diver's Den clown gobies were listed for twice the price of their non-DD ones. Granted, that's still not much, but I am willing to pay extra for a fish that's actually healthy. A lot of people probably are. QT can get expensive, particularly if you have to treat something.

 

Buying a healthy-seeming fish in-store is how I got ich the first time. 

 

If LA isn't going to actually sell healthy fish, they need to freakin' well remove the bit about them having the healthiest fish anywhere. 

[Tamberav]

You would be surprised that people seem to want QT fish. The handful of QT venders online sell fish pretty fast. Like before QT is finished. I have two LFS that QT. One fully and one almost fully (copper gets done fully but not all the other meds) and they move fish fairly fast. 

[Tired]

TSM Aquatics seems to sell out pretty fast, and they have a bunch of things available for pre-order at any given time. Their site is also kinda funny to browse; the fish are all photographed by having someone with a white glove trap them against the side of the tank, so every fish pictured is in some state of going "what the HECK". 

[Reefkid88]

So they just went live on FB and I asked him how their QT and diseaee prevention was going and the screen went black lol I am assuming they booted me 😂