Any tips setting up sump flow?

[Bldgengineer]

I can’t seem to get it right. It’s either too much or not enough. Any tips to find that sweet spot?

[PeterU]

That would depend on how your overflow and return are setup.

 

On my system I only have one valve, it's on the pump outlet. I set it to just under the maximum the overflow can take and I never have to change it.

[Bldgengineer]

I have a single ball valve on the overflow drain

[Murphs_Reef]

What's your configuration? Have you got an emergency drain or just one drain pipe? 

 

To be honest getting it exact is difficult, I settle on having a trickle down the emergency as it's silent that way. Having a perfect balance isn't really a thing as when your sock gets clogged up it will push the water level up in the display a little. 

[Bldgengineer]

5 minutes ago, Murphych said:

What's your configuration? Have you got an emergency drain or just one drain pipe? 

 

To be honest getting it exact is difficult, I settle on having a trickle down the emergency as it's silent that way. Having a perfect balance isn't really a thing as when your sock gets clogged up it will push the water level up in the display a little. 

It’s a single drain hob overflow. I went back and forth so much that I almost flooded my display tank lol. I’ve given up on it for the day. The ball valve isn’t very easy to move which is making it even more difficult 

[DaJMasta]

If it's a single outlet from the overflow box, don't constrict it at all.  If you need it quieter, look into adding a well vented cap to the overflow box or something to reduce splash noise where it enters the sump.

The multidrain configurations have the emergency drain to fall back on in the event of a constriction or other issue, but with a single drain constricting it will only result in it ultimately getting blocked enough to overflow your display (which it sounds like you've already noticed).

[Bldgengineer]

7 minutes ago, DaJMasta said:

If it's a single outlet from the overflow box, don't constrict it at all.  If you need it quieter, look into adding a well vented cap to the overflow box or something to reduce splash noise where it enters the sump.

The multidrain configurations have the emergency drain to fall back on in the event of a constriction or other issue, but with a single drain constricting it will only result in it ultimately getting blocked enough to overflow your display (which it sounds like you've already noticed).

The problem I’m having with it wide open is it’s acting like it wants to flood the sump. The drain is 1 inch and return is 3/4in.  

[DaJMasta]

Then either your sump doesn't have enough headroom in its water level, or there's something else wrong with the setup.  An overflow works on gravity, so by definition, it can only drain as much water as is put up into the display and at that rate.  Now if the overflow level drains too far below the waterline, or if it fully siphons in the event of a power outage, you can pull a whole bunch of extra water into the sump from the display, but when the pump is on and things have equalized, your drain return rate will be identical to your return pump rate - it has to be.

If it seems like it's close to overflowing in operation like this, I think your sump just needs to be run at a lower water level.

[Bldgengineer]

What's weird is that the water level in the sump goes above the adjustable weir if I don't slow the drain down.

[jefferythewind]

yeah something isn't right, if you turn off the pump completely and let all the water drain into the sump, it shouldn't overflow the sump, if it does, it must be water flowing back from the return line. To fix that you need to add a hole in the return line in the display, right at the water level. Then when you turn on the pump the only direction the sump level can go is down. There should never be any problem putting the drain fully open in the overflow besides noise.

[Bldgengineer]

10 minutes ago, jefferythewind said:

yeah something isn't right, if you turn off the pump completely and let all the water drain into the sump, it shouldn't overflow the sump, if it does, it must be water flowing back from the return line. To fix that you need to add a hole in the return line in the display, right at the water level. Then when you turn on the pump the only direction the sump level can go is down. There should never be any problem putting the drain fully open in the overflow besides noise.

I have a check valve on the return line to keep water from draining back. This is really baffling. If I leave to drain valve wide open I can watch the sump level keep climbing. If I close it off some I can watch the sump water level drop and DT go up.  

[PeterU]

Can you post a picture?

If your sump can't handle the flow through it your pump is rated too high. That is why I think the flow should be controlled by a valve on the outlet of the pump and not the on the overflow.

[Bldgengineer]

10 minutes ago, PeterU said:

Can you post a picture?

If your sump can't handle the flow through it your pump is rated too high. That is why I think the flow should be controlled by a valve on the outlet of the pump and not the on the overflow.

I’ll try it again in the morning. Too many beverages to try tonight lol. If it helps, the pump is a sicce syncra 1.5

[Bldgengineer]

Here’s a picture of the sump. It’s a 20L with a Fiji cube kit

[Bldgengineer]

Got to thinking about this and is it possible I don’t have enough pump? I mean if it can’t keep up with the drain wide open then that makes me lean towards the pump not having enough flow to keep up with the drain

[jefferythewind]

I really don't think the strength of the pump matters as long as it is getting the water up there. After that its about preference. The overflow in the display tank will always keep the water at the same height in the display, what ever water goes in from the return pump will then overflow down the drain, that's it, the water in the sump will quickly find its equilibrium. 

[Murphs_Reef]

Again I'm speaking as some one with the Herbie (drain + emergency), you need as best you can to match the return to the drain. *It won't just find it's own balance, if you have a ball valve it's going to be very difficult to control the drain (it's pretty much an on off switch). So you may have to turn up / down your pump until it balances. 

 

It look me 2 weeks until I was happy with mine btw.  And even now I try to tweak it. 

 

* Well it might but that's likely too low (not enough return which causes a waterfall sound along with burping in the sump) or too high (DT fills up to fast and drain can't keep up)

[jservedio]

15 hours ago, jefferythewind said:

I really don't think the strength of the pump matters as long as it is getting the water up there. After that its about preference. The overflow in the display tank will always keep the water at the same height in the display, what ever water goes in from the return pump will then overflow down the drain, that's it, the water in the sump will quickly find its equilibrium. 

The strength of the return pump will definitely make a big difference in the water level of the display tank all other things being equal. If OP is reducing flow on the drain side, it will increase the water level in the DT. However, for an HOB overflow (or any overflow without a backup), this is not the correct way to adjust the water level in the DT. For an HOB overflow, OP would need to use the water level adjustment screws and raise the entire HOB overflow up. The other option is adding a bigger return pump, but this comes with it's own drawbacks since you will be increasing flow through the sump.

 

When setting up a sump, you should pick your return pump to match what you want the flow rate through your sump to be at the given head height (typically 3-10x of DT turnover through the sump per hour). From there, you make adjustments to change your DT water level depending on the type of setup (drain valve for herbie/bean-animal, weir or standpipe height for single drain overflows, or box height for HOBs).

 

For an HOB, you should only be adjusting flow through the drain and sump by adjusting the flow through your return line with a valve - restricting the drain without a secondary open drain is a guarantee of a flood.

 

OP - I ran an HOB overflow for 8 years and have experienced pretty much every failure mode. Absolutely do not restrict your drain line ever and make sure you have a float switch in your DT that will shut off the return pump if the HOB overflow fails. I prevented multiple floods with this simple float switch.

[PeterU]

The more I read this thread the more it sounds to me like you have too much water in your system.

[mcarroll]

On 1/2/2022 at 9:36 PM, Bldgengineer said:

Got to thinking about this and is it possible I don’t have enough pump? I mean if it can’t keep up with the drain wide open then that makes me lean towards the pump not having enough flow to keep up with the drain

Not possible....you can only have too much pump.  For what it's worth, "too much pump" would either overflow the display OR empty the sump, whichever came first....no other flood outcome.   A "lesser amount" of too much pump can make your drain very noisy instead of causing a flood....above 50% capacity, this tends to become a problem.   A 1" drain has a 600 GPH total capacity.

 

"Not enough pump" will simply result in a lower flow rate – and the overflow box will deliver 100% of the pumped water back into the sump.

 

BTW, wow this thread has a lot of confusing info about flow!

 

Here's what I can tell you so far:

1. Remove the valve from your drain.  At the very least, open the valve ALL THE WAY and leave it that way permanently.
2. The water level in the display is dictated by the height of the overflow weir in the tank.
3. The water level in the sump is going to be dictated by a few things.
   1. the amount of water you put in the system
   2. the height of baffles
   3. the return pump emptying the chamber it's in

The return pump chamber is the only place you can really gauge the overall water level in the system or changes to the water level.

For example, day after day evaporation will slowly remove water from your system – but only the return pump chamber's water level will drop.

 

How many gallons of water did you put in at the beginning?  What size is the display tank?  Sump is 20 gallons?

[jservedio]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

The water level in the display is dictated by the height of the overflow weir in the tank.

OP, the weir height on an HOB overflow is controlled by moving the entire HOB box up/down using the two thumbscrews directly over the rim. If you raise the height of water in the display, the water level in the sump will be reduced assuming you don't add water. When you are adjusting stuff like this, make sure your ATO is turned off and make sure your return pump is on since the flow rate of the return pump will also affect the display tank water level.

 

If the water level in your sump is too high and you aren't seeing overflow falling from the main chamber(s) to the return chamber, you have too much water in the system. The water level in your return chamber should always be lower than the water level in your main chamber(s). Always make sure you are adjusting this stuff with the whole system running.

 

 

[Bldgengineer]

Let’s try this again. When I have the drain valve open all the way, the level in the sump rises above the adjustable weir in the sump. If I close the drain valve halfway the water level in the return chamber disappears. 
 

i will say that I have not let it go and see what happens. I’ve stopped it once I see the return chamber get half empty. 

[DaJMasta]

Looking at your sump design, that means that the gap under your final baffle for the return zone is not far enough off the bottom glass, or your flow is otherwise restricted between the weir and the return chamber.  You have that one baffle beyond the weir that is very high, if it even partially seals against the bottom of the sump, that will force water over the top of it, which is well over your weir.

 

Otherwise, you need to adjust the valve to keep the pump from running dry and let the system's water levels stop fluctuating, then record the level in each chamber (picture is easiest) and try to figure out what is wrong.  Either baffles are too high, flow between them is too restricted, or there is too much water in the sump, and it could be some combination of them.

[PeterU]

1 hour ago, DaJMasta said:

or there is too much water in the sump,

I'd recommend opening the drain valve fully then when the level get above the baffles, start removing water from your system. I guessing you have upwards of 5 gallons too much. Your return chamber should have the lowest level and be the only place in your system that sees a change in level due to evaporation.

[Bldgengineer]

I finally have the flow right in the sump! Only issue I have is the overflow box is gurgling pretty loud. Any tips on getting it quiter?