monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 Hey all! I'd like to start a discussion with those of you who have had success or NO success using a freshwater set-up for a nano tank. This is a controversial topic, for sure, but I want to build a sparse, Japanese inspired tank that has no visible equipment with macros, gorgonians, a few softies, and maybe an LPS or two. I have a build thread on R2R which I will probably also transfer here since I think the audience is more appropriate: R2R build thread But, my plan is: UNS 90L 21 g ONF Flat One Blue/White 36" light UNS 90U wooden stand OASE Biomaster 600 or 850 Thermo canister (heater and prefilter integrated into the unit) (600 model = 350GPH max flow | 800 model = 400gph max flow) Algae reactor (if needed - plumbed inline after the canister) Dosing pump for ATO Lily pipes for inflow and outflow w/ surface skimmer Acrylic U-pipes for ATO I'd like to do this without a powerhead if possible Here's what I'm interested in discussing: 1. Your stories of success or failure 2. Pros and cons of the set up 3. Things I can do to optimize it. Specific canister size question: 1. I believe getting an oversized canister is the best bet, and I've been told I need to go with at least the Oase biomaster 600, but I'm wondering if going all the way up to the 850 would help with flow, filtration, and add 10% extra water? Since I want to do this without power heads if possible, would 400GPH from the 850 work with lily pipes? Would it be enough flow? It is not a DC pump so you add valves to adjust. Quote Link to comment
A.m.P Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 Plenty of reefers used and continue to use canister filters, a lack of rock might make things a bit less stable and limit your stocking options but ultimately isn't the end of the world for coral (Coral don't just die after being taken to frag shows for a week without any rock). I think the biggest failure point is using too fine a filter sponge and just not cleaning it often enough. 400 GPH for a 20 gallon lands you solidly in the "middle road" of flow rate for reef tanks, you may struggle with stuff settling out into dead spots. Algae reactors are great, but they're extra maintenance load on you and easy to forget about lol. In any case you'll be best served waiting until you've actually had livestock in the tank for a while before setting one up. The other thing I'll mention is that single, point-source flow in reef tanks can be very frustrating to work around. You'll likely be moving corals around quite allot which may somewhat limit what and where you can keep animals. Quote Link to comment
monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 Thanks for the reply! Obviously i WILL put a powerhead in the tank if I need one, but your points are valid. I currently run a 10g waterbox and the cube shape makes flow kind of a nightmare. I'm always moving frags or the powerhead around to try to get it just right. Haven't hit the sweet spot yet. I should also mention that there will be rock + sand. I didn't put that on my list. I'm starting it with aquacultured live rock from KP aquatics + fiji pink. 1 Quote Link to comment
Nixperience Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 I think everything should be fine except gorgonians. They require a bit more flow. A Nero 3 is pretty low profile and can mount anywhere. That should be more than enough to provide enough flow for anything. Quote Link to comment
monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 It's low profile, for sure, but it's black. 😞 Quote Link to comment
Nixperience Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 Just now, monicalooze said: It's low profile, for sure, but it's black. 😞 Are you going to leave all 4 sides clear or paint one of the sides? Quote Link to comment
monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 All four sides will be clear. Hence the challenge. That's where the lily pipes came from to begin with - I don't want to see the equipment in the tank. I've mocked up so many overflow options... I was going to have one custom made of frosted light blue glass. I tried a volcano style to see if I could hide it in the rock work, but the "volcano" would have to be HUGE. I've also looked at the MAME overflows and a sump, but the mame's look even more likely to break than the lily pipes and are more expensive + harder to clean. Quote Link to comment
Nixperience Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 I get what you’re going for. Then I would suggest doing I higher gph pump and running a split return for 2 Lilly Pipes. So you can have the overflow pipe drawing a suction in one area and 2 return pipes to direct flow where you need it. Maybe one can be longer or shorter so you can have a deep return and a surface return? If there is any significant rock in the scape, you could hide a powerhead behind there. An mp10 won’t have any cords in the tank, so that could be more easily hidden. 1 Quote Link to comment
jservedio Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 My old 20g tank was converted from a FW setup using a canister filter for a few years before eventually adding a sump. It ran successfully for 10 years and I didn't remove the can and add a sump because I was having issues - I simply wanted to hide the gear and it's less maintenance. You absolutely need to add a powerhead (or some other sort of flow) even if you go with the big canister for a 20g tank unless you get one with even more flow - that flow rating is for an entirely empty canister. Even for a softy tank you are going to have issues. I had a can that was rated for around 300gph and with nothing but carbon in it, I'd estimate it was well below 200gph - with a filter pad or floss it was cut even more dramatically. My Koralia 240 was putting out significantly more flow than the can. If you don't go with a powerhead, you could always build a closed loop system by drilling the bottom and have no equipment in the tank. You can also get as creative as you want with hiding a pump if you don't want to drill - it doesn't have to be mounted to the walls of the tank. Another huge disadvantage for a can with a lily pipe is the velocity and size of the flow - even if it's putting out numbers that seem to be reasonable, it's not very useable flow. You can successfully run a tank with nothing except a box of water, a source of flow, a heater, and a light successfully, all the gear does is make your life easy. 1 Quote Link to comment
monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 I am definitely going to build an aquascape that can hide a powerhead. I wish canister filters came with higher flow. I believe there are other brands, but they don't have pre-filters, which, from what I've read, is the key to making canister filters less of a maintenance headache. Quote Link to comment
M. Tournesol Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 34 minutes ago, monicalooze said: I am definitely going to build an aquascape that can hide a powerhead. I wish canister filters came with higher flow. I believe there are other brands, but they don't have pre-filters, which, from what I've read, is the key to making canister filters less of a maintenance headache. You could also do a close loop with lily pipes. You would have one set for the canister and one set (or more) for the close loop. Quote Link to comment
monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 I never thought of that! I kept thinking about a closed loop requiring drilling. I am not completely opposed to drilling, FYI, just that no plumbed solutions go with the aesthetic. So with a closed loop, you'd have a set of lily pipes with the external pump, and then a set of lily pipes attached to the canister...basically a double closed loop tank... Quote Link to comment
jservedio Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 42 minutes ago, monicalooze said: I am definitely going to build an aquascape that can hide a powerhead. I wish canister filters came with higher flow. I believe there are other brands, but they don't have pre-filters, which, from what I've read, is the key to making canister filters less of a maintenance headache. IMO the biggest drawback of using the can for flow purposes with a lily (or similar style pipe) is the flow pattern and velocity - it just isn't the wide, low-velocity flow that your corals need and that keeps detritus suspended. The reality is that while canister filters are a great low-profile method of filtration (and in the Oase case, heating), they just aren't designed for or even good at providing a flow source. It's great for replacing an HOB or sump, but it's just very narrow and high velocity flow - upping the flow rate would just increase the velocity. Mine was an older Fluval (more than 10 years old) and I kept it close to empty, just a little floss and a small bag of carbon and ran it without a pre-filter - basically just a low-profile replacement for an HOB. Cleaned it every 10-14 days. For the price of the Oase 850, you could have a drilled tank with bulkheads in the bottom pane to custom built to have a closed loop system. IMO quality flow is the most important aspect in a reef tank right after stability. 2 Quote Link to comment
monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 I know the price is ridiculous. Thanks for explaining the flow from the canister. This is all very new to me. I was going to drill this tank, but I still don't like it aesthetically. I want this thing to look like an impossible tide pool in a glass box running on magic. But it sounds like it makes more sense to have either a second closed loop or hide a Nero 3.... 1 Quote Link to comment
monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 20 minutes ago, M. Tournesol said: You could also do a close loop with lily pipes. You would have one set for the canister and one set (or more) for the close loop. Do you have any idea which style lily pipes would work best to create the flow? There are definitely quite a few... Quote Link to comment
M. Tournesol Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, monicalooze said: Do you have any idea which style lily pipes would work best to create the flow? There are definitely quite a few... 🤷♂️, I suppose the best would be a jet lily. But, if you aquascape gives you the opportunity, I would go with a close loop as @jservedio proposed: 44 minutes ago, jservedio said: For the price of the Oase 850, you could have a drilled tank with bulkheads in the bottom pane to custom built to have a closed loop system. This solution would be the cleanest and have the best flow. For example: https://reefbuilders.com/2019/12/16/building-a-massive-closed-loop-for-the-400-gallon-hardline-reef/ or the following picture with blue as input and orange as output: Edited December 29, 2021 by M. Tournesol added an example 1 Quote Link to comment
Nixperience Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 You find a lot of influence and solutions in these builds from @WV Reefer@brad908 @East1 @Wawawang I think you will find that in these builds, flow/circulation has a higher value than filtration for the overall health of the reef. These are also clear 4 sided and have similarities to Japanese Aquascaping. If you haven’t looked at these, I suggest you do. 3 Quote Link to comment
monicalooze Posted December 29, 2021 Author Share Posted December 29, 2021 I haven't seen all of these, so thank you for linking them! 1 Quote Link to comment
Tired Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 Have you thought about a sump? That would let you put lots of rock in the sump, fit whatever filtration you wanted, add in a strong pump, and possibly keep some cool crabs down there. You could use quite a small sump if it was just a place to hide your pump and some rock. That said, I have been growing zoas, a few LPS, and even a couple of encrusting montis quite well off an empty canister filter. It's a pico tank, but it's also a pretty small canister. Flow is vital in a reef, but some corals aren't as fussy about it as others. An oversized canister filter with little to no media to obscure the flow (though you do need some media for bacterial housing) might work. 1 Quote Link to comment
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