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simplicity ecosystem theroy


filefishfinatic

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filefishfinatic

i have a crazy idea that needs someone who is smarter than me to critique. wouldnt it be better to just keep a few big colonies of sessile animals (coral sponge anenome tube worm) all with different niches than 1000 frags of different coral? i think this might make sense with fishes too. as opposed to 25 uniuqe species you keep 10 species with small groups of fishes. along with this you do a diversity of microfauna as opposed to large life forms as you can dedicate care and have a huge amount of life. this also minimizes chemical warfare. 

 

Good idea?

 

@Subsea

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Your idea is not new (having only a limited number of corals colony of compatible species). It is just not implemented because people want all the trendy or beautiful sessile animals possible. From what I understand, old reef tanks will hallway have a dominant sessile animals which will slowly eliminate the other sessile animals. (If you add Xenia it will be Xenia, if you add mushroom it will be mushroom, if you add BTA it will be BTA, ... ).

 

This is why my pocilloporidae themed tank is mainly composed of pocilloporidae corals (with may be the addition of some Acropora) and two zoanthids that can easily be removed (ie, on an isolated rock).

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filefishfinatic

i think this also is good for health of fish. if i was a fish (obviously not a great white shark or an anglerfish) i would like to have some friends to hang out with and some good hiding places. i wouldnt want to live my life alone in a parking lot with traffic cones everywhere. nowhere to hide and i would have to be with all the other fish at the same time. your tank is a great example of a simple ecosystem where the fish occupy different niches and they do not fight or compete. you have the mantis shrimp which just eats snails and crabs, your watchman goby that eats burrowing animals and plankton and your court jester that eats pods 

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filefishfinatic

simplified: in a more simple tank with large amounts of things to the point of being usable along with groups of fish, the fish show natural behavior and they will spawn and they will have actual hiding places. a clown goby cannot live in a frag of coral and a brotulid will hide more if it is not stocked in a group. my other thinking is that if we keep the animals simple (not a ton of different specialized creatures and just a handful of niches being filled that could still create a proper ecosystem) we can focus on diversity of plankton and bacteria which the animals will utilize for nutrient export and food. we also will gain more natural processes and our tank iwll become more interconnected and it will reach a homeostasis where everything will depend on eachother. to me, it sounds like a paradox but it makes sense at the same time. 

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My mantis is not part of this "ecosystem" (which is a wrong term since the tank is too small to be considered an ecosystem). It's a non-desired addition ...
My snails participate more in the equilibrium of the system than the mantis. Moreover, I think that watchman goby and court jester may have intersecting food (pods).

 

What you also need in order to thrive is to have a balance system and not an ecosystem. An Ecosystem is not realistically realizable with complex organisms like corals and fish scrammed into small tanks.

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3 minutes ago, filefishfinatic said:

simplified: in a more simple tank with large amounts of things to the point of being usable along with groups of fish, the fish show natural behavior and they will spawn and they will have actual hiding places. a clown goby cannot live in a frag of coral and a brotulid will hide more if it is not stocked in a group. my other thinking is that if we keep the animals simple (not a ton of different specialized creatures and just a handful of niches being filled that could still create a proper ecosystem) we can focus on diversity of plankton and bacteria which the animals will utilize for nutrient export and food. we also will gain more natural processes and our tank iwll become more interconnected and it will reach a homeostasis where everything will depend on eachother. to me, it sounds like a paradox but it makes sense at the same time. 

Maybe with a very very very understocked tank which you are not known to do (For reference, my tank is considered over stocked).

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filefishfinatic

a reef can have hundreds of species, a reef is massive though and not all of them will live with eachother. they subdivide into seperate ecosystems which in of themselves work together. similar to how organelles work together to run a cell, cells work together to make an organ, organs work together to make an organisim : species make a eco-subdivision subdivisions make an ecosystem, ecosystems (cryptic zones, rubble zone, reef crests, seagrass beds) create regional systems (reefs) which creates the ocean. a brain cell depends on a heart cell but it is not realized until you reach a wider selection of life. idealistically, you would want to create 1-2 ecosystems  i.e a reef crest with a rubble bottom. or a seagrass lagoon with a small bommie of coral. this is how reefs are organized in the wild too. even though they seem seperated, on a single ecosystem. on the substrates there are still algaes and cryptic animals which will create homeostasis for that ecosystem. 

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filefishfinatic
3 minutes ago, M. Tournesol said:

My mantis is not part of this "ecosystem" (which is a wrong term since the tank is too small to be considered an ecosystem). It's a non-desired addition ...
My snails participate more in the equilibrium of the system than the mantis. Moreover, I think that watchman goby and court jester may have intersecting food (pods).

 

What you also need in order to thrive is to have a balance system and not an ecosystem. An Ecosystem is not realistically realizable with complex organisms like corals and fish scrammed into small tanks.

Yes! you are understanding what im saying, the system balances itself out. it cannot be an ecosystem and it is foolish to replicate one. if you want to truly make an "ecosystem" in the sense of aquaria you want a balanced tank not a diverse tank. if i was making a peice of furniture that would be used 100 years from now, i wouldnt care about form (biodiversity) necessarily i would care about function (balance) because i want it to be sturdy and reliable through it getting stained, chipped, refinished. you can have a tank with a ton of tangs and no algae, it is not balanced because the fish compete for the algae. you can have a tank with a lot of fish (gobies blennies angels wrasse tangs) and a few others. they will still compete amongst themselves, which is natural but they will not compete agianst others and their effects on the system are balanced out on what the other fish do. for example, a goby could eat a pod but a wrasse poops alot and bacteria convert to nitrate and that makes algae. the tang eats some of the algae and poops too. the poop turns to detritus or algae or nitrogen whatever. all of these factors feed the pod and then the goby can eat another pod. 

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filefishfinatic

i have 1 ambitious idea of getting like 5 5 gallons vs 1 25 gallon or something, starting both with dry rock but constraining different creatures from different subsystems in 1 tank and just 1 subsystem in the other tank. i measure growth in the 2 identical tanks (1 5 and 1 25) and i see what has a better growth. the 1 simplified tank or the 1 non simpliified tank 

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12 minutes ago, filefishfinatic said:

a reef can have hundreds of species, a reef is massive though and not all of them will live with eachother. they subdivide into seperate ecosystems which in of themselves work together. similar to how organelles work together to run a cell, cells work together to make an organ, organs work together to make an organisim : species make a eco-subdivision subdivisions make an ecosystem, ecosystems (cryptic zones, rubble zone, reef crests, seagrass beds) create regional systems (reefs) which creates the ocean. a brain cell depends on a heart cell but it is not realized until you reach a wider selection of life. idealistically, you would want to create 1-2 ecosystems  i.e a reef crest with a rubble bottom. or a seagrass lagoon with a small bommie of coral. this is how reefs are organized in the wild too. even though they seem seperated, on a single ecosystem. on the substrates there are still algaes and cryptic animals which will create homeostasis for that ecosystem. 

The problem is the volume. the smaller is the system and the easier it's for it to be unbalanced by a small event. Furthermore, the current tank stocking guideline is considering the minimal space a fish need and an unbalanced tank that need input food and output of waste (water change, skimmer, ...).

 

It is the same for corals. Our tanks are too small to sub-stain a big SPS colony without an input of Kh, Ca, ...

 

Thus, taking reef as an example may not always be the best practice. You must always consider the limitation of your tank volume. Its volume means by nature less ecological niches and less resources.

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filefishfinatic
2 minutes ago, M. Tournesol said:

The problem is the volume. the smaller is the system and the easier it's for it to be unbalanced by a small event. Furthermore, the current tank stocking guideline is considering the minimal space a fish need and an unbalanced tank that need input food and output of waste (water change, skimmer, ...).

 

It is the same for corals. Our tanks are too small to sub-stain a big SPS colony without an input of Kh, Ca, ...

 

Thus, taking reef as an example may not always be the best practice. You must always consider the limitation of your tank volume. Its volume means by nature less ecological niches and less resources.

thats what i was talking about. of course you have to dose because in nature water refreshes but not necessarily water change or other things. you can feed and dose to add nutrients and have natural nutrient recycling systems that are very simple but reliable to export. you would eventually have to cut the coral or pull out macroalgae or scrape coraline but that can be labeled as "humphead parrotfish breaks coral" or "manatee comes and eats the algae" 

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58 minutes ago, filefishfinatic said:

a reef can have hundreds of species, a reef is massive though and not all of them will live with eachother. 

I was watching something on Natural Coral reefs in the ocean a while back on Television.  One thing that stood out to me was when they were talking about the smaller fish ( and other critters ) that are plentiful in the corals symbiotically living within.  They reproduce alot and some only had an average lifespan of a year b/c of predators eating them.  Nature itself thins the herd every year, and nature replenishes it.  

 

There is so much complexity out there in the vast ocean reef ecosystem that the best we can do is take a slice of the system and educate ourselves in keeping them happy and thriving within, be it from tank size, water conditions, dosing elements or water changes, food, etc.  

 

Pretty unrealistic to replicate the ocean in a glass box at home. 

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filefishfinatic

true! if we kept only a few species of acropora or a few species of soft coral, we only have to tailor to their needs. a mixed reef is unnatural in most circumstances. you will not find sps with some low light lps and zoanthids or mushrooms. they require different water peramaters (flow lighting etc) it isnt necessarily nutrients as an issue. almost all water is consistent besides flow salinity and lighting and temprature. 

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On 11/29/2021 at 9:09 AM, filefishfinatic said:

i have a crazy idea that needs someone who is smarter than me to critique. wouldnt it be better to just keep a few big colonies of sessile animals (coral sponge anenome tube worm) all with different niches than 1000 frags of different coral? i think this might make sense with fishes too. as opposed to 25 uniuqe species you keep 10 species with small groups of fishes. along with this you do a diversity of microfauna as opposed to large life forms as you can dedicate care and have a huge amount of life. this also minimizes chemical warfare. 

 

Good idea?

 

@Subsea

When John Tullock wrote The Natural Reef Aquarium he recommended a biotheme tank as representing a specific community of compatiable livestock.  Because I am a Laissez faire reef keeper I chose easy to care for livestock.  I spend much time researching compatible tank mates to eliminate trouble down the road.  
 

To me, a balanced system is an ecosystem in dynamic equilibrium.

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Enquiring minds, or at least curious cats have to know. 

Is the motivation for this thread, the justification of the purchase, of expensive large coral colonies? 

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filefishfinatic
8 hours ago, fenderchamp said:

Enquiring minds, or at least curious cats have to know. 

Is the motivation for this thread, the justification of the purchase, of expensive large coral colonies? 

no, i cant go to the lfs until christmas. then, mabye. im not the type of person who needs an enabler to purchase things 

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filefishfinatic

I simply wish to understand the ideal setup of aquaria so i can better help others and myself by creating more balanced systems. one part of this theroy comes from paul b's book talking about how fish do not need diversity of food because all animals were made to eat specific things and they will be happy with those specific things because they have all the nutrients the fish need to remain in spawning condition. id assume this applies to corals and invertebrates too. an example of this could be the harlequin shrimp which only consumes starfish and they do it in pairs. they need to be in a pajr and they need to eat starfish. another one is comennsalisim involving coral. clown gobies need colonies of sps to live in and feed on. they need large colonies of 1 species as opposed to 100 frags of many species 

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[paul b's book talking about how fish do not need diversity of food because all animals were made to eat specific things and they will be happy with those specific things because they have all the nutrients the fish need to remain in spawning condition. id assume this applies to corals and invertebrates too]
 

Did Paul say that fish would be happy not to get diversity of food?  I know he feeds his fish with fresh clams from his own table.  Paul also collects amphipods & grass shrimps from the estuaries.  Knowing Paul, I assure you, he  feeds his systems diverse live food collected  including natural seawater from the Atlantic Ocean.  I haven’t read his book but we have talked at reef2reef and I know him as a friend.  He lives close to the tip of Long Island not far from family that  I have on Long Island.

 

Paul is an authority on spawning fish.  I respect his knowledge and admire him as a person. He sometimes takes poetic license to make his point in a “tongue & cheek” fashion.

 

[The urban dictionnary says: "When a statement is "tongue in cheek" it is ironic, slyly humorous; it is not meant to be taken seriously, however its sarcasm is subtle. Though not meant to be taken seriously, it is not overt joking or kidding around, it is "gently poking fun".]

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3 hours ago, filefishfinatic said:

I simply wish to understand the ideal setup of aquaria so i can better help others and myself by creating more balanced systems. one part of this theroy comes from paul b's book talking about how fish do not need diversity of food because all animals were made to eat specific things and they will be happy with those specific things because they have all the nutrients the fish need to remain in spawning condition. id assume this applies to corals and invertebrates too. an example of this could be the harlequin shrimp which only consumes starfish and they do it in pairs. they need to be in a pajr and they need to eat starfish. another one is comennsalisim involving coral. clown gobies need colonies of sps to live in and feed on. they need large colonies of 1 species as opposed to 100 frags of many species 


@filefishfinatic

In the Natural Reef Aquarium, John Tullock addresses pivitol species tanks and community theme tanks.  In my experiences, the ideal set up is to start at the microbial level and build diversity of micro fauna & fana, then using recycling of nutrients in picoplankton, carbon is moved up the food chain via the microbial loop.  I see recycling as  bedrock for longevity of our closed ecosystems and biodiversity as a stabilizing influence to establish that longevity.

 

Aside from the basics that I addressed above “ideal is in the eyes of the beholder”.  Instead of a hodge podge setup, prudence suggest decide what you want, learn what it needs and design system accordingly.  

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filefishfinatic
16 hours ago, Subsea said:

[paul b's book talking about how fish do not need diversity of food because all animals were made to eat specific things and they will be happy with those specific things because they have all the nutrients the fish need to remain in spawning condition. id assume this applies to corals and invertebrates too]
 

Did Paul say that fish would be happy not to get diversity of food?  I know he feeds his fish with fresh clams from his own table.  Paul also collects amphipods & grass shrimps from the estuaries.  Knowing Paul, I assure you, he  feeds his systems diverse live food collected  including natural seawater from the Atlantic Ocean.  I haven’t read his book but we have talked at reef2reef and I know him as a friend.  He lives close to the tip of Long Island not far from family that  I have on Long Island.

 

Paul is an authority on spawning fish.  I respect his knowledge and admire him as a person. He sometimes takes poetic license to make his point in a “tongue & cheek” fashion.

 

[The urban dictionnary says: "When a statement is "tongue in cheek" it is ironic, slyly humorous; it is not meant to be taken seriously, however its sarcasm is subtle. Though not meant to be taken seriously, it is not overt joking or kidding around, it is "gently poking fun".]

i dont have the book right this second but he quoted a study about gut bacteria and how feeding a consistent diet (plankton, worms, clams, shrimp, amphipods) as opposed to feeding a different food every single feeding will give the fish a better diversity of gut bacteria 

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filefishfinatic

https://cns.utexas.edu/news/diet-variety-can-hamper-gut-microbial-diversity. i dont think this applies to a diversity of plankton and methods to raise carbon through the food chain though. i have been learning about the calvin cycle and the kreb's cycle in biology along with other ways carbon assimilates into different biological molecules. i think the study is mostly based on feeding 3 meals of clams and pods vs 3 meals, 1 with clams and pods, 1 with blackworms and whiteworms, 1 with plankton and brine shrimp. the bacteria would be more well acclimated to just the clams and pods. ive heard about some people feeding their lionfish nori to add diversity but that is not a good idea because it would destroy their gut bacteria because they are carnivorus fishes 

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On 12/2/2021 at 8:30 AM, filefishfinatic said:

i dont have the book right this second but he quoted a study about gut bacteria and how feeding a consistent diet (plankton, worms, clams, shrimp, amphipods) as opposed to feeding a different food every single feeding will give the fish a better diversity of gut bacteria 

Define consistent diet.

 

Plankton 

On 11/29/2021 at 11:06 AM, M. Tournesol said:

Your idea is not new (having only a limited number of corals colony of compatible species). It is just not implemented because people want all the trendy or beautiful sessile animals possible. From what I understand, old reef tanks will hallway have a dominant sessile animals which will slowly eliminate the other sessile animals. (If you add Xenia it will be Xenia, if you add mushroom it will be mushroom, if you add BTA it will be BTA, ... ).

 

This is why my pocilloporidae themed tank is mainly composed of pocilloporidae corals (with may be the addition of some Acropora) and two zoanthids that can easily be removed (ie, on an isolated rock).


@filefishfanatic

Your first idea is a good one.  However, study up on how you mix different species whose exudates are nauseous to other species.  Because I operate balanced systems with zero water changes, what I say is not relative for nano reef operation.  I am all about diversity of micro fauna & fana that form complex food webs to recycle inorganic & organic nutrients using the microbial loop to move carbon up the food chain.  In conjunction with balanced comes longevity.  
 

Diversity of gut cavity bacteria in fish is central to healthy fish immune system, which is relevant to fish.  Diversity of bacteria in our ecosystems , includes so much more than nitrification bacteria.   As you get deeper into the details of DOC & TOC in a zero water change systems, you will find that bacteria, algae (includes coral zooanthelia) and cryptic sponges process each others exudates.  

 

I have a somewhat  modified view of “climax forest” scenario as being inevitable.  I have seen “climax forest” with redwoods in California.  They are magnificent.  In our reef tank, it is very easy to prune and for nutrient export, sell frags as you prune so it’s an easy way to operate a mixed garden.   In a nano tank, partial water changes should rectify those concerns.  Another option is activated carbon that uses adsorption & absorption to perform chemical filtration & biological filtration.

 

As I operate too many large systems, I use cryptic sponges to perform biochemical filtration 1000 fold more effective than granulated activated carbon.
 

 

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filefishfinatic

i was talking to someone who has done zeovit before. he says it uses bacteria and microfauna to filter nutrients. i wonder what would happen if you put small quantities of zeovit material in a tank's filtration system, you could create a more stable enviroment. 

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