Picos and Dinos

[skippylou]

Having never kept a pico tank before something got me thinking and curious everyone's thoughts...

 

Going with the current theory that bottoming out nitrate and phosphate can lead to dinos having their opening and chance to bloom, while combining that with many pico owners doing regular 100% water changes which would consistently lower those nutrients, why are pico owners not constantly plagued by dinos?  Is it the nutrients in the small volumes of water build back up so quickly?

[A.m.P]

Many of those keeping picos take advantage of the 100% waterchanges to feed coral foods quite heavily, especially since they're the only source of nutrients.

Heavy-in, heavy-out is more-or-less the new trend, and it seems to be working out fairly-well for most.

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, skippylou said:

Having never kept a pico tank before something got me thinking and curious everyone's thoughts...

 

Going with the current theory that bottoming out nitrate and phosphate can lead to dinos having their opening and chance to bloom, while combining that with many pico owners doing regular 100% water changes which would consistently lower those nutrients, why are pico owners not constantly plagued by dinos?  Is it the nutrients in the small volumes of water build back up so quickly?

Zero-/Low-PO4 is the most common "ingredient" of a reef tank dino bloom...but the cause of any given dino bloom is often more than just low nutrient levels.  Specifically, carbon dosing (all forms) and the use of dead rock are also strongly related.

 

By far, the most sure way to create a dino bloom is to combine dead rock, aggressive nutrient reduction and carbon dosing.  

 

This creates a disturbed environment of low diversity.  Low diversity is unstable by nature.  And then if carbon dosing (which can mean amino acids, vinegar, vodka, or any number of similar commercial additives) applied too, it causes something bad for most organisms, including corals, called microbialization.

 

To circle back to your question about pico tanks...in general, pico keepers have not messed with crazy things like carbon dosing.  Nor has there ever been a common practice of over-filtering with things like GFO.  

 

And in real life, most wild reefs get something closer to 100% water changes than to 10%.

 

So there's nothing inherently bad about LOTS of water exchange as long as conditions are otherwise favorable.  

 

Real wild reefs, after all, ARE NOT in low nutrient environments.  The common knowledge that they ARE from low nutrient environments is based on a mis-reading of local conditions by focusing too much on test numbers....assuming incorrectly that the numbers exert the effect on the corals and not the other way around.

 

The low nutrient water surrounding a reef is a byproduct of the efficiency of a wild reef in recycling (vs losing) available nutrients.  

 

Wild reefs (and the corals within) are a balanced nutrient environment whether the test numbers are relatively high or low.

 

But...

 

Try (for example) installing an industrial plant that emits a carbonaceous effluent into that 100% "wild" water change (ie carbon dosing), and all bets will be off.  

 

Check out this article: "Global microbialization of coral reefs"  There are other goodies like that in my blog's section on Carbon Dosing.

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

You are using the term pico, so what is the range in gallons you are referring to?

[PeterU]

1 hour ago, Micro-Reefs Aquariums said:

You are using the term pico, so what is the range in gallons you are referring to?

Pico on this forum normally refer to 5 gallons and under. I suspect the OP may be referring to jars and such which are normally 2 gallons or less.

[brandon429]

The reason I'm not convinced that big water changes cause dinos in large tanks is because the last five rip cleans on large tanks/40-60 gallon ones cleared the dinos right out. I was expecting growback we'd need to remove and guide, but none has come. 

 

I think the rumor comes from large tanks who do partial water changes, which doesnt remove dinos. and pouring back in mixes up stratified waste + complexed dino mats for redistribution and increased mass. 

 

a rip clean is the polar opposite: take down cleaning of the system including tapwater sandbed wash back to total clean (final rinse in RO water to evacuate tap) and rocks washed off in saltwater externally, detailed free of mass, then all reassembled doesn't have any complexed material to redistribute. it looks like a gem of a reef thereafter, and stays that way so far in our collected patterns. Large tankers racked by dinos have assessed all kinds of causatives but doing I thorough and dedicated surgical cleaning fixes dinos, it doesnt cause more. the full commit attitude prevents dinos, the lukewarm mode perpeptuates them.

 

agreed also on GFO causing dinos, carbon boosting and dry rocks agreed. Even picos with dry rocks rarely get dinos due to not much use for the other forms of media, I dont know any jar reefs running gfo for example 

 

there may be some, but I haven't seen them/not common

[skippylou]

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

To circle back to your question about pico tanks...in general, pico keepers have not messed with crazy things like carbon dosing.  Nor has there ever been a common practice of over-filtering with things like GFO.  

This makes sense for sure.

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

And in real life, most wild reefs get something closer to 100% water changes than to 10%.

I think this is the gem of your post here :).  Reefs in the ocean are in a constant "water change", not necessarily by "clean" water fsvo that word but by different water.

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

So there's nothing inherently bad about LOTS of water exchange as long as conditions are otherwise favorable.  

Yep, makes sense especially in the context of above.

 

2 hours ago, PeterU said:

Pico on this forum normally refer to 5 gallons and under. I suspect the OP may be referring to jars and such which are normally 2 gallons or less.

I guess initially I meant whatever was feasible for 100% water changes but your bring up a good point that jars probably fall more in line with that than all picos.

1 hour ago, brandon429 said:

The reason I'm not convinced that big water changes cause dinos in large tanks is because the last five rip cleans on large tanks/40-60 gallon ones cleared the dinos right out. I was expecting growback we'd need to remove and guide, but none has come. 

I think I was thinking about it less with having to do with big water changes and more that when it's 100% water changes it _must_ drastically reduce the nutrients each time.

1 hour ago, brandon429 said:

 

agreed also on GFO causing dinos, carbon boosting and dry rocks agreed. Even picos with dry rocks rarely get dinos due to not much use for the other forms of media, I dont know any jar reefs running gfo for example 

Makes sense and this was likely what I was missing was that the absence of nutrients is just one factor in what is likely a multi-factor set of factors that leads to dinos successfully blooming. 

[brandon429]

it was a keen observation to see the groups as a whole regarding dinos problems, we'd have to search pages and pages to find four active pico reefs with a sustained problem. If there were four, they probably don't know how effective a rip clean actually is/then there'd be zero pico reefs with dinos issues

 

but agreed in searches its all large tanks copying methods that don't seem to always cure the option, the rumor about water changes literally prevents more rip cleans getting ran, we usually only get the work jobs when the keeper is fed up. they view a rip clean as so harmful they've got nothing to lose, so its last trial ran after months of headache and delay

 

one key hidden truth about rip cleans is they're not harmful, anyone who takes a reef large or small and enters it in my home move threads gets a perfectly polished reef on the other side/the new home. its their old stuff, skip cycled over from the old home...we rip cleaned before moving. transferring only pristinely clean substrate eliminates cycle risk, and invasion risk, in the new home. Folks aren't trained to see rip cleans in a large perspective like that, though the procedure is the same tank to tank regardless of reason to run one.

 

its not practical to use rip cleans to fix dinos across reefs...but for tanks truly struggling its also an incredibly viable option with a stronger sustain rate/cure rate than other methods. we still need non rip clean methods developed though, to help the large tankers

[ubpr]

If you have a chance to try this by yourself, try and see what happens. When tank is out of balance, it has to be restored. Each tank is unique, some are plagued with problems, other are seemingly problem free.

 

With abundant feeding you have to have enough biodiversity that will be able to consume what was stuck between rocks and corals. With only moderate feedings, there us a fair chance to have ultra low nutrient system (ULNS) with zero nitrates and phosphates, affecting tank general state and coral well being, dosing them will be necessary to keep them in detectable range. This is my problem with picos, have to use Brihtwell's NeoPhos and NeoNitro.

 

AlgaeBarn has an article about OceanMagic, building biodiversity by dosing live phytoplankton, making almost sterile water more like live water, with variety of microorganisms in it. Then pods start appear on a glass. It's a lot of work to build biodiversity in the tank, especially now, when live rock is not available in stores, more of a curbside pick up.

[filefishfinatic]

On 11/13/2021 at 10:27 AM, skippylou said:

Having never kept a pico tank before something got me thinking and curious everyone's thoughts...

 

Going with the current theory that bottoming out nitrate and phosphate can lead to dinos having their opening and chance to bloom, while combining that with many pico owners doing regular 100% water changes which would consistently lower those nutrients, why are pico owners not constantly plagued by dinos?  Is it the nutrients in the small volumes of water build back up so quickly?

biodiversity and high input. i am planning to do almost no wcs in my tank and letting the water and macro do the tank cleaning. 

[Jakesaw]

13 hours ago, ubpr said:

With abundant feeding you have to have enough biodiversity that will be able to consume what was stuck between rocks and corals. With only moderate feedings, there us a fair chance to have ultra low nutrient system (ULNS) with zero nitrates and phosphates, affecting tank general state and coral well being, dosing them will be necessary to keep them in detectable range. This is my problem with picos, have to use Brihtwell's NeoPhos and NeoNitro.

 

 

This for me has been the most frustrating part of Nano - reef.  And it took and is still taking me a long time to understand.  

 

This site, focusing on Nano's should have in the beginner section more on this topic. I was attracted to Nano reef b/c of the ability to start the hobby with a small budget / footprint, but the low nutrient issue has been the biggest bugger for me.  I have seen 1 gallon PICO's thrive, while my 10 gallon with a quality light have up and down success.  

 

I resolved the issue several times adding a 2nd fish which increased my Nitrates instantly, but since I have a mature clown that owns every inch of the tank after 9 mo on his own, the new fish is no longer living after a week's time.

 

I was coming to the conclusion that your post summarized, but I don't know where to start with the nano reef dosing.  Been dosing PHyto for about a month and had some success, but I do feel there is more I can / should do b/c Phos / Nitrates are still low w/o that 2nd fish.  Just don't know what that should be doing besides upgrading to 20G tank with at least 3 fish in it.

[filefishfinatic]

here is how to defeat dino for anyone intrested. its ridiculously easy. set heater to 82 or more. add nitrate. add live rock. as low flow as you can manage. add other algaes and do not dose or water change. 

[Jakesaw]

26 minutes ago, filefishfinatic said:

add other algaes and do not dose or water change. 

What does this mean?

 

The other algaes - what are you referring to?

 

When I got my 2nd fish in there, the DINO instantly started moving back as my tank got " other algaes " naturally, like within a day or two.  I was even starting to grow some GHA on my back wall for first time.  

 

When I lost the nitrate factory ( 2nd fish died )... back to DINOs.  "Other Algae " needs more nutrients, and that's the crux of the problem - no?

 

How does one raise nutrients to grow "other algaes" without raising nutrients first?  

[filefishfinatic]

21 minutes ago, Jakesaw said:

What does this mean?

 

The other algaes - what are you referring to?

 

When I got my 2nd fish in there, the DINO instantly started moving back as my tank got " other algaes " naturally, like within a day or two.  I was even starting to grow some GHA on my back wall for first time.  

 

When I lost the nitrate factory ( 2nd fish died )... back to DINOs.  "Other Algae " needs more nutrients, and that's the crux of the problem - no?

 

How does one raise nutrients to grow "other algaes" without raising nutrients first?  

you need consistent nitrate. just get some potassium nitrate or algae fertilizer or something. its ok if you have to raise some other nutrients 

[mitten_reef]

20 minutes ago, Jakesaw said:

What does this mean?

 

The other algaes - what are you referring to?

 

When I got my 2nd fish in there, the DINO instantly started moving back as my tank got " other algaes " naturally, like within a day or two.  I was even starting to grow some GHA on my back wall for first time.  

 

When I lost the nitrate factory ( 2nd fish died )... back to DINOs.  "Other Algae " needs more nutrients, and that's the crux of the problem - no?

 

How does one raise nutrients to grow "other algaes" without raising nutrients first?  

I'd take anything coming from that account very caustiously.  if you look at the post history, you'll realize that 50% of what posted even made any sense (and we're being generous here with 50% mark).  you can always check someone's post history by tapping/clicking on their profile name, their "badge" will show up, and bottom right corner "find contents".  I encourage everyone to do some "background check" on the person whose recommendations you're reading.  Just because someone answers, it's not always the appropriate answer, just has to keep that in mind.  Good for you for questioning the comment.  

 

Read this by @DevilDuck, very informative on the steps he's taken for dealing with dino.  Make sure to read it thru, as he summarized somewhere on what he thinks worked, and what he thinks was non-contributing.

 

As far as nutrient dosing, you can use google to search N-R faster, example type in google "nano-reef.com nitrate dosing" you'll get a handful of recent topic about how to add pure nitrate as supplement, same goes for phosphate.  I think the topic above might even goes into nutrient dosing as well.  But my recommendation first and foremost, is to look at your feeding routine and system's filtration.  are they balanced, i.e. too much filtration, too little bioload?  any chemical media that you can take offline, less % water change, etc?  

 

  

[Jakesaw]

19 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

I'd take anything coming from that account very caustiously.  if you look at the post history, you'll realize that 50% of what posted even made any sense (and we're being generous here with 50% mark).  you can always check someone's post history by tapping/clicking on their profile name, their "badge" will show up, and bottom right corner "find contents".  I encourage everyone to do some "background check" on the person whose recommendations you're reading.  Just because someone answers, it's not always the appropriate answer, just has to keep that in mind.  Good for you for questioning the comment.  

 

Read this by @DevilDuck, very informative on the steps he's taken for dealing with dino.  Make sure to read it thru, as he summarized somewhere on what he thinks worked, and what he thinks was non-contributing.

 

 i.e. too much filtration, too little bioload?  any chemical media that you can take offline, less % water change, etc?  

 

  

I'm pretty certain I"m in the too little bio-load, but my 10 gallon tank and leaving a Clown to grow from baby to a good sized fish by his lonesome has restricted me from adding 2nd fish successfully. 

 

I could get rid of my " OG "clown and start with 2 smaller clown pair, but I'd like to keep my first fish if possible.

 

20 Gal Long with 3 fish is my best guestimate, but not sure if I put the clown in that new tank; will he try and claim that tank too. Much of the rockwork will be from LR from the 10 gal ( I'll rescape as best as possible and add some new Dry Rock, eliminate his cave, but he may recognize some parts and feel homey )

 

Didn't appreciate how much the small tank limiting my fish would cause these issues when I started the hobby.

 

 

[filefishfinatic]

3 minutes ago, Jakesaw said:

I'm pretty certain I"m in the too little bio-load, but my 10 gallon tank and leaving a Clown to grow from baby to a good sized fish by his lonesome has restricted me from adding 2nd fish successfully. 

 

I could get rid of my " OG "clown and start with 2 smaller clown pair, but I'd like to keep my first fish if possible.

 

20 Gal Long with 3 fish is my best guestimate, but not sure if I put the clown in that new tank; will he try and claim that tank too. Much of the rockwork will be from LR from the 10 gal ( I'll rescape as best as possible and add some new Dry Rock, eliminate his cave, but he may recognize some parts and feel homey )

 

Didn't appreciate how much the small tank limiting my fish would cause these issues when I started the hobby.

 

 

even 3 fish in a 20 long unless they are larger is probably too little. you could try something equally agressive. i dont know very many aggro fish beyond clowns. you could TRY a dwarf fuzzy lion but you would need to upgrade it to a 20 long at the very least. hawkfish are pretty strong too. a clown wont mess with a lion i dont think. 

32 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

I'd take anything coming from that account very caustiously.  if you look at the post history, you'll realize that 50% of what posted even made any sense (and we're being generous here with 50% mark).  you can always check someone's post history by tapping/clicking on their profile name, their "badge" will show up, and bottom right corner "find contents".  I encourage everyone to do some "background check" on the person whose recommendations you're reading.  Just because someone answers, it's not always the appropriate answer, just has to keep that in mind.  Good for you for questioning the comment.  

 

Read this by @DevilDuck, very informative on the steps he's taken for dealing with dino.  Make sure to read it thru, as he summarized somewhere on what he thinks worked, and what he thinks was non-contributing.

 

As far as nutrient dosing, you can use google to search N-R faster, example type in google "nano-reef.com nitrate dosing" you'll get a handful of recent topic about how to add pure nitrate as supplement, same goes for phosphate.  I think the topic above might even goes into nutrient dosing as well.  But my recommendation first and foremost, is to look at your feeding routine and system's filtration.  are they balanced, i.e. too much filtration, too little bioload?  any chemical media that you can take offline, less % water change, etc?  

 

  

i have dealt with dinoflagettes, cyano, and briopsis. i know what i am talking about in regards to invasive algaes. 

[Ratvan]

9 minutes ago, Jakesaw said:

I'm pretty certain I"m in the too little bio-load, but my 10 gallon tank and leaving a Clown to grow from baby to a good sized fish by his lonesome has restricted me from adding 2nd fish successfully. 

 

I could get rid of my " OG "clown and start with 2 smaller clown pair, but I'd like to keep my first fish if possible.

 

20 Gal Long with 3 fish is my best guestimate, but not sure if I put the clown in that new tank; will he try and claim that tank too. Much of the rockwork will be from LR from the 10 gal ( I'll rescape as best as possible and add some new Dry Rock, eliminate his cave, but he may recognize some parts and feel homey )

 

Didn't appreciate how much the small tank limiting my fish would cause these issues when I started the hobby.

 

 

These numbers of fish and tank size are good stocking levels. How did you try and introduce the other fish to the tank? I would personally add clowns last in my experiencethey are dicks to anything added after. 

 

You coukd try putting your current clown in a breeders box/isolation box abd add thr new fish direct to tank after QT if you go that route. 

 

How low are your nitrates? 

[Jakesaw]

33 minutes ago, Ratvan said:

These numbers of fish and tank size are good stocking levels. How did you try and introduce the other fish to the tank? I would personally add clowns last in my experience they are dicks to anything added after. 

 

You could try putting your current clown in a breeders box/isolation box abd add thr new fish direct to tank after QT if you go that route. 

 

How low are your nitrates? 

Mai Tai Clown was added when I got my tank started 9 months ago as a baby.  He's a pretty healthy at least 2 1/2 inches head to tail, maybe 3 inches max. 

 

So if I go the 20 gallon, you think I should keep the clown in 10 gallon for a big longer til the new fish got the lay of land and put Clown in last, or just keep him out of there altogether.

 

Nitrates w/ 1 fish are pretty undetectable, the few times I had a 2nd live fish in there, they crept into the 2 - 5 range and I was getting some healthy algae growth pretty quick

 

Edit: Introducing fish, I just added them in.  

Royal Gramma - was pretty healthy for about 10 days.  Hid for day or two, and then came out.  He found a rock to house and swam around daily.  When I put 2 coral frags by both entries of his rock, he freaked out, moved out of rock and never found a new home.  Stopped eating and was stuck to powerhead a few days later.

 

Bicolor Blenny & yellow tail Chromi damsel ( chromi was thrown in for cheap by LFS ... grrr ).  Damsel swam around tank happy first day and carpet surfed first night.  Bicolor Blenny found a nice hole in rock to settle into.  When he was alive, healthy eater, swam around tank from holes in rocks to swimming around the tank exploring.  As for fish interaction, Best blenny hole was right in middle of tank where Clown liked to hang out.  My clown basically hosted the Blenny for 3 days til I found him stuck under a rock the next day with a crab feasting on his guts. 

 

Last one was a ( probably too small ) Talbot Damsel - swam around first day all over tank.  Had a couple tiny bites of food, Next 2-3 days he found rock / side tank wall and basically hunkered in that area all day and did not eat.  Next morning, I found him dead with Red Scarletts cleaning up the mess again.

[filefishfinatic]

get venomus fish or puffer. do a fuzzy lion and a puffer along with the clown. you need aggro stuff or venomus stuff. the reason puffers and lions got good personalitys is because they are basically inveunerable to other fish and they can be as bold as they want. though i am confused with your posts, id you already add fishes to the 20 long. if you keep those fish in there, another thing id do is let them get established \in there and then hopefully they may not fight. 

[Ratvan]

39 minutes ago, Jakesaw said:

Mai Tai Clown was added when I got my tank started 9 months ago as a baby.  He's a pretty healthy at least 2 1/2 inches head to tail, maybe 3 inches max. 

 

So if I go the 20 gallon, you think I should keep the clown in 10 gallon for a big longer til the new fish got the lay of land and put Clown in last, or just keep him out of there altogether.

 

Nitrates w/ 1 fish are pretty undetectable, the few times I had a 2nd live fish in there, they crept into the 2 - 5 range and I was getting some healthy algae growth pretty quick

 

Edit: Introducing fish, I just added them in.  

Royal Gramma - was pretty healthy for about 10 days.  Hid for day or two, and then came out.  He found a rock to house and swam around daily.  When I put 2 coral frags by both entries of his rock, he freaked out, moved out of rock and never found a new home.  Stopped eating and was stuck to powerhead a few days later.

 

Bicolor Blenny & yellow tail Chromi damsel ( chromi was thrown in for cheap by LFS ... grrr ).  Damsel swam around tank happy first day and carpet surfed first night.  Bicolor Blenny found a nice hole in rock to settle into.  When he was alive, healthy eater, swam around tank from holes in rocks to swimming around the tank exploring.  As for fish interaction, Best blenny hole was right in middle of tank where Clown liked to hang out.  My clown basically hosted the Blenny for 3 days til I found him stuck under a rock the next day with a crab feasting on his guts. 

 

Last one was a ( probably too small ) Talbot Damsel - swam around first day all over tank.  Had a couple tiny bites of food, Next 2-3 days he found rock / side tank wall and basically hunkered in that area all day and did not eat.  Next morning, I found him dead with Red Scarletts cleaning up the mess again.

I'm going to guess that you have algae pest or otherwise in the tank, as in my opinion the nitrates are probably low as theyre being used up.

 

I would be tempted to add another mai tai clown if you can find one, pick a fish much smaller than your current one. I would be tempted at that point to call it a day on fish, or add something like a shrimp goby to dwell at different level in the tank. I would keep the established clown isolated for a few days when adding the newcomer 

[Jakesaw]

Thanks for the advice,

 

I went to LFS store and discussed my frustration in adding fish, and we decided I'd take clown out for a while and totally re-work rockscape.  No more main cave - now I've got 2 islands.  

 

Not ideal for coral placement, but most of mine are in the sand bed right now anyway.  I made a little more space in the sand in the process.

 

I added a larger Talbot's Damsel and the OG clown at the same time and nobody has territory.  Made sure to ask for feeding @ store before I grabbed him.  

 

Sadly, I may have traumatized my clown in the process as somehow the net I caught him in hooked him in the process.  Maybe he bit the net, but his head was stuck for a bit before I could release him in the Temp bucket with aquarium water.    I transferred him to tank in a cup for safety.

 

I can see Talbot in mini cave created by 2 stacked rocks, and clown is hanging in back of tank behind rockwork.  Hopefully they will be both out swimming in the next day or two.

 

Wish me luck!

[Jakesaw]

Thanks for the advice,

 

I went to LFS store and discussed my frustration in adding fish, and we decided I'd take clown out for a while and totally re-work rockscape.  No more main cave - now I've got 2 islands.  

 

Not ideal for coral placement, but most of mine are in the sand bed right now anyway.  I made a little more space in the sand in the process.

 

I added a larger Talbot's Damsel and the OG clown at the same time and nobody has territory.  Made sure to ask for feeding @ store before I grabbed him.  

 

Sadly, I may have traumatized my clown in the process as somehow the net I caught him in hooked him in the process.  Maybe he bit the net, but his head was stuck for a bit before I could release him in the Temp bucket with aquarium water.    I transferred him to tank in a cup for safety.

 

I can see Talbot in mini cave created by 2 stacked rocks, and clown is hanging in back of tank behind rockwork.  Hopefully they will be both out swimming in the next day or two.

 

Wish me luck!

 

Update: Talbot Damsel found a home ( mini cave ) he wants to call his own, but the larger Clown keeps intruding and forcing him out.  Not aggressive per see, just both are swimming in, trying to claim the same space as their own. 

 

Talbot sets in cave from front and backs in

Clown likes to come in from behind and force him out of the cave

Back & Forth they go

 

Neither fish have looked at the other island yet.

 

This will be interesting to watch play out.   

 

 

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Jakesaw said:

Didn't appreciate how much the small tank limiting my fish would cause these issues when I started the hobby.

Back in the day, (before "nano reef" was a coined term) small reef tanks were always considered more difficult than larger tanks....beginners were NEVER encouraged to start small.  20 gallons or less was, in general, actively discouraged.  20 is the low edge of "minimal".

 

It's nice that nano's took off and became popular (I mean look at some of the tanks over the years – wow!), but the baby went out with the bathwater in the process on some things.  E.g. Losing the bias against beginner's wasn't the best thing that could have happened to nano tanks IMO.  

 

The fairly prevalent idea that nano's are easier and/or simpler than large tanks (which is reinforced by the low up-front costs) is deceiving to the average noob and a slight disservice to the hobby...which can be (and should be) challenging in any size of tank!

 

Basically my way of saying that nano's deserve more respect than they get...a nano is not a toy reef, or a starter reef, or a learning reef...it's an expert reef.  That's my own opinion anyway...

 

IMO the smallest tank a noob reefer should start with is 20-30 gallons – and 20 gallons is REALLY small for saltwater.  (ie smaller is "nano")  To paraphrase about 10,000,000 Usenet posts from the 90's, "30-50 gallons would be better ideal starting range." 😉  (If you're talking about excluding fish and only doing corals and inverts, then smaller can become less problematic in a number of ways.  Still not "easier" than a bigger tank.)

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, Jakesaw said:

a larger Talbot's Damsel

Pic or it didn't happen!   Half-kidding....juvenile Black Damselfish are often sold as Talbot's as the coloration is generally similar.

 

Post a pic so we can see which it is!

 

I took a Black Damselfish in my 125 Gallon from someone who was disappointed by this switcharoo.   (They don't grow up to be similar to a Talbot's.)