Importing Coral

[New Fishy Boy 612]

I have a problem. See, I live in Hawaii, and apparently you can’t port coral, it has to be legally collected. But here’s the thing, the only legally collected coral there is are zoathids. Should i get just zoathids or do you recommend something else. If just zoathids, how many should i get. Just FYI, i have a 10 gallon 

[Utahpico]

I believe you can collect anything non reef building “legally” there are lots of cool corals and inverts you can collect yourself and not have to spend money like the rest of us. Load it up! I used to collect small Easy to remove zoas from colonies I felt it was wrong to take the whole thing like most lfs in the area we’re doing and selling massive rocks of zoas. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

[A.m.P]

Macro tanks will likely be a bit easier and more rewarding, unless you know exactly where and what to look for wild-collection is a recipe for dead animals and disappointment. 

If locals have some zoas around I would absolutely grab some, most of the classic pretty "people-eater zoas" (magicians, salted agave, etc.) are all hawaiian.

[Clown79]

https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/dar/habitat/coral-reefs/coral-and-live-rock-laws-of-hawaii/

 

 

According to this, its illegal to take any stony corals, anemones, mushrooms, or reef corals

[mcarroll]

Quote

It is unlawful to take, break or damage, with any implement, any stony coral from the waters of Hawaii, including any reef or mushroom coral. HAR 13-95-70

They're including shrooms as stony coals.  I get that "no means no and they don't want to talk about it anymore" but IMO that web page could at last have been written to be coherent.

 

The HI scene has become fairly famous in the last 5-10 years or so for being anti-aquarium so none of this is very surprising.  

 

A more detailed link: https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/dar/files/2020/05/Coral_restoration_FAQ.pdf

 

There is apparently some loophole for live rock propagation, also mentioned in the PDF, but there're no details provided.

 

This is the ouchiest part for me to read:

Quote

What can I do to help protect corals?

Here are some ideas for ways to protect corals: -Leave corals in their place

-Observe corals from a safe distance
-Don’t litter
-Use biodegradable fishing line
-Be a cautious boater, use mooring buoys and only anchor in sandy areas -Use reef safe sunscreen, with non-nano zinc and/or titanium dioxide -Reduce your carbon footprint

I would add a closing point to their list:  

  -Above all, be sure to remain ignorant about reef habitats.  Go get a boat, a fishing pole, and a tan if you want to like the ocean like a REAL Hawaiian. (Oh and stop littering.)  

 

Seems like an unfunny joke.

 

HI is still hosting elephants and giraffes at their zoo, for what it's worth.  A legendary Bird of Paradise collection too.  🙄   Seems to me that converting some of their 300 acres of (apparently only about 50 acres are dedicated zoo land) to "Aquaculture" research, where they grow live rock, corals and reef fish for research and for sale would make a lot of sense.  Especially compared to the status quo.  

 

The land was traditionally used for fish farming, among other things, according to their site:  https://www.honoluluzoo.org/about/  So it's a return to tradition for HI if they did that.

 

The saddest part for my personally/selfishly (since I don't live there), is that HI inadvertently promotes less successful reefing practices with their all-or-nothing legislative approach.  This can only add to the confusion that newbs already encounter when trying to set up a tank for he first time....this inevitably leads to a higher failure rate among aquarists....which translates to a higher mortality rate for the aquarium animals they want to protect.  

 

I understand reefs a bit, but politics seemingly not at all...

[A.m.P]

Conservation isn't politics mate, before the ban every third joe shmoe could and did break off chunks of the reef, claim it was "for their own use" and it would mysteriously end up somewhere else in the world a month later, past that tourists who'd otherwise just leave with a water bottle full of green sand (and cumulatively export hundreds of metric tonnes a year) contributed to the issue. The ban was one of the best things they ever did for the reefs.
Pertaining to import, Hawaii has been settled so many times, by so many cultures, that the literature there can hardly identify what was or wasn't native, aside from a few near-exclusive endemics like ohia. In that light they are rightly quite strict about bringing in anything from off the island, much less corals which may bear diseases ripping through stony reef elsewhere in the world. 

You need a license to collect in the AU and in Japan, it's no different on the island. Worth noting there are propagation efforts on-island, they cooperate with folks on the mainland and have had quite a number of successes, including the breeding of leafy sea dragons.
https://www.thegardenisland.com/2020/07/05/lifestyles/meet-ekaha-ku-moana-hawaiis-black-coral/
Only one of countless examples. "It's just me", "It's only a little", "It's just this one time" sounds allot less innocent when there are billions of people within a standard deviation of being utterly-undifferentiable from "me".

[New Fishy Boy 612]

10 hours ago, Utahpico said:

I believe you can collect anything non reef building “legally” there are lots of cool corals and inverts you can collect yourself and not have to spend money like the rest of us. Load it up! I used to collect small Easy to remove zoas from colonies I felt it was wrong to take the whole thing like most lfs in the area we’re doing and selling massive rocks of zoas. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

So should I go to somewhere like Hanama Bay (for those of you who don’t know what that is, it’s one of the beaches with lots of fish and livestock) and go try get some easy to remove corals?

[Utahpico]

21 minutes ago, New Fishy Boy 612 said:

So should I go to somewhere like Hanama Bay (for those of you who don’t know what that is, it’s one of the beaches with lots of fish and livestock) and go try get some easy to remove corals?

I used to collect zoas from Haleiwa to Kailua. Never That side of the island. I definitely wouldn’t do Hanama, that’s all protected area.  

[New Fishy Boy 612]

23 minutes ago, Utahpico said:

I used to collect zoas from Haleiwa to Kailua. Never That side of the island. I definitely wouldn’t do Hanama, that’s all protected area.  

Mmmm ok, but somewhere else that isn’t protected would be good right?

[Ohmegg]

I actually recently called the Hawaii fish and wildlife department about this very question. The young man told me although technically "legal" to collect a  zoa that wasn't on a rock, it would be hard to prove that you didn't get rock while collecting. Plus potential lawsuits from nature conservancy organizations may push the state to "clarify" some of thee  rules in the future , and that may make anything more illegal in the future. Plus bringing them state side would probably trigger Lacy Act investigation...plus the species out there has zoatoxin. He basically painted a picture that it's a really bad idea. 

[A.m.P]

9 hours ago, New Fishy Boy 612 said:

Mmmm ok, but somewhere else that isn’t protected would be good right?

If you're set on doing some collecting, try to find someone working with a local uni branch or wildlife service to go out with you, or give you detailed instructions/guidelines. Basically get everything you can greenlit and always just call and ask if you're not sure, you may even get lucky and run into a fellow enthusiast like @yoshii.

Oh, and stay away from anything at all which looks like a big, brown-green proto-paly in shallow water, the locals used to dip spears into tidepools and collect enough palytoxin to kill just about anything they touched.

[Jakesaw]

RULES PERTAINING TO STONY CORALS

Unlawful to take, break or damage, any stony coral, including any reef or mushroom coral.
Unlawful to damage any stony coral by any intentional or negligent activity causing the introduction of sediment, biological contaminants, or pollution into state waters.
Unlawful to sell or offer for sale any stony coral, except that stony coral rubble pieces or fragments imported for the manufacture and sale of coral jewelry, or dead stony coral obtained through legal dredging operations in Hawaii for agricultural or industrial puposes, may be sold.
HAR 13-95

 

https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/dar/habitat/coral-reefs/coral-and-live-rock-laws-of-hawaii/

 

---------------

CAN I COLLECT AQUATIC LIFE FOR MY PERSONAL HOME AQUARIUM?

Yes. You may recreationally collect aquatic life for your personal home aquarium. Please be sure to utilize legal gear and follow all other applicable regulations. Additionally, please be aware that any taking of aquarium fish or other aquatic life in the West Hawai‘i Regional Fishery Management Area is prohibited. 

 

https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/dar/fishing/faqs/

 

---------

 

Living in hawaii, you can swim out to view live coral any time.  Why not just get a fish / creature aquarium for free and enjoy the corals in the great wide open. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[New Fishy Boy 612]

11 hours ago, Ohmegg said:

I actually recently called the Hawaii fish and wildlife department about this very question. The young man told me although technically "legal" to collect a  zoa that wasn't on a rock, it would be hard to prove that you didn't get rock while collecting. Plus potential lawsuits from nature conservancy organizations may push the state to "clarify" some of thee  rules in the future , and that may make anything more illegal in the future. Plus bringing them state side would probably trigger Lacy Act investigation...plus the species out there has zoatoxin. He basically painted a picture that it's a really bad idea. 

Oh crap

[mcarroll]

On 10/20/2021 at 11:01 AM, Jakesaw said:

Living in hawaii, you can swim out to view live coral any time.  Why not just get a fish / creature aquarium for free and enjoy the corals in the great wide open. 

1 boat trip to bring a fish and a coral to your home aquarium to enjoy 365 days a year. 

vs

52 boating trips PER YEAR  to see fish and coral on the weekends.

 

That's a lot of fuel getting to and from the boat; lotsa fuel using the boat; ancillary waste such as sunscreen, et al.

 

 

Why is encouraging every bozo in HI to acquire a boat so they can go fishing and SCUBA diving considered better?

 

On 10/19/2021 at 8:57 PM, A.m.P said:

Conservation isn't politics mate

Boating, fishing and sun tanning are promoted as protecting of reefs while aquariums are viewed as harmful to the reef.  

 

🤦‍♂️

 

Which activities sell more beer? I think THAT may be the real question.

 

On 10/20/2021 at 11:01 AM, Jakesaw said:

 

https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/dar/fishing/faqs/

 

Quote

CAN I COLLECT AQUATIC LIFE FOR MY PERSONAL HOME AQUARIUM?

Yes. You may recreationally collect aquatic life for your personal home aquarium. Please be sure to utilize legal gear and follow all other applicable regulations. Additionally, please be aware that any taking of aquarium fish or other aquatic life in the West Hawai‘i Regional Fishery Management Area is prohibited. 

CAN I TRANSPORT THE AQUATIC LIFE I COLLECT FOR MY PERSONAL HOME AQUARIUM OUT OF STATE?

Yes, although you should check with the appropriate agency in your home state for any restrictions on the kinds of animals they will allow to be imported. Many states have alien species concerns, which may include microscopic organisms, pathogens, or parasites in the water or on the fish. You should also check with your airline to find out their requirements and recommendations for shipping live fish. 

DO I NEED A LICENSE OR PERMIT TO COLLECT AQUATIC LIFE FOR MY PERSONAL HOME AQUARIUM?

No.  You may collect aquatic life for your home aquarium without a license or permit, provided you use legal gear and methods.  Small mesh throw nets are always prohibited. Regulations such as minimum size, season, bag limits, etc., still apply.  Please be aware that any taking of aquarium fish or other aquatic life in the West Hawai‘i Regional Fishery Management Area is prohibited.

According to that FAQ the collection policy is almost 100% permissive, almost without qualification – just some rules around how you collect (eg. only use nets; stay out of specifically protected areas).

 

FINE TO COLLECT

FINE TO TRANSPORT OUT OF STATE

NO LICENSE NEEDED

 

That's just plain confusing when you read it with the rest of the hawaii.gov links so far in this thread.

 

😵‍💫

 

@New Fishy Boy 612 Collecting is either totally allowed or totally illegal depending on what info you prefer to look at – I'm not sure what I'd think in your position...

[A.m.P]

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

(...) [Strawman] (...)
Again, they tried the highschool-Libertarian "sa'l gud bruh" route and nearly lost their reef, same as everywhere else in the world.
People largely can't even commit to a TV show or a diet, maybe relying on self-moderation for conservation efforts is a bit optimistic. (see, Florida)

@New Fishy Boy 612 Collecting is either totally allowed or totally illegal depending on what info you prefer to look at – I'm not sure what I'd think in your position...

That's why they need to call the local wildlife department instead of fishing for approval on forums lol...

[Ohmegg]

13 hours ago, mcarroll said:

1 boat trip to bring a fish and a coral to your home aquarium to enjoy 365 days a year. 

vs

52 boating trips PER YEAR  to see fish and coral on the weekends.

 

That's a lot of fuel getting to and from the boat; lotsa fuel using the boat; ancillary waste such as sunscreen, et al.

 

 

Why is encouraging every bozo in HI to acquire a boat so they can go fishing and SCUBA diving considered better?

 

Boating, fishing and sun tanning are promoted as protecting of reefs while aquariums are viewed as harmful to the reef.  

 

🤦‍♂️

 

Which activities sell more beer? I think THAT may be the real question.

 

According to that FAQ the collection policy is almost 100% permissive, almost without qualification – just some rules around how you collect (eg. only use nets; stay out of specifically protected areas).

 

FINE TO COLLECT

FINE TO TRANSPORT OUT OF STATE

NO LICENSE NEEDED

 

That's just plain confusing when you read it with the rest of the hawaii.gov links so far in this thread.

 

😵‍💫

 

@New Fishy Boy 612 Collecting is either totally allowed or totally illegal depending on what info you prefer to look at – I'm not sure what I'd think in your position...

Yeah...it's confusing. That's why I would encourage speaking with the state fish and wildlife service, and even that information may be different from the federal agencies that operate in HI.
In my opinion having a system where one could pay a fine (that would fund conservation) to collect, propagate and sell coral stateside would at the least help create a "living ark" of propagated corals in the event of a disease (like the one currently ravaging the Florida Keys).  But, opinions are like Aiptasia, everybody's got em. 

[A.m.P]

22 hours ago, Ohmegg said:

 a "living ark" of propagated corals in the event of a disease (like the one currently ravaging the Florida Keys).  But, opinions are like Aiptasia, everybody's got em. 

To be fair, this idea is fine, but our aquarium corals are largely useless for reintroduction, they have little to no feeding response, no genetic diversity, have been selected for aesthetics instead of viability for survival, and have largely lost their cyclical breeding tendencies. There have been a couple presentations about it, but the colonies in our systems would starve and die in the wild with little-to-no inclination to reproduce.

[mcarroll]

On 10/22/2021 at 1:18 PM, Ohmegg said:

In my opinion having a system where one could .... help create a "living ark" of propagated corals....

Sounds like a great idea, but maybe too rational to happen.

[Tired]

In every pet-keeping hobby that involves creatures which are suffering in the wild, this question of "can pets provide offspring to be reintroduced" pops up. And the answer is always, no, they cannot.

 

There's two main problems. One is that the creatures have been exposed, directly and indirectly, to other creatures from all over the world. That means they've been exposed to pathogens from all over the world, and often to strains of pathogens only found in captive populations. Releasing those animals into the wild would release those pathogens, which, not being native to the local environment, would be pathogens the local wildlife has no resistance to. Something a bit like this can be seen with backyard chickens: it's best not to keep them with other game birds, as chickens can carry many pathogens they're resistant to, but non-domestic game birds have no resistance at all. Keeping chickens and, say, coturnix quail together can kill the quail from pathogen exposure. 

 

The other is, as mentioned above, these creatures are now acclimated to captivity. This is an issue even in zoo captive-breeding programs, as only those animals calm enough in captivity to breed can be bred at all, but is especially bad with pets. Selection for tameness, hardiness in specifically captive conditions, and aesthetics can really take a toll. Probably not quite so much in corals, since they aren't being selectively bred (accidentally or not) for any traits, but I'd bet money that a coral whose original "ancestor" (for lack of a better word for "frag parent many times removed") was collected years ago will act differently than its ancestor did.

 

(There's also frequently a concern of accidental hybridization producing offspring that look like the original species but are not, but that's not really a concern with corals. More with dart frogs, which is where I've seen this argument hashed out a number of times. It always comes back to these same things.)

 

Living arks exist, but they exist at facilities that are doing their best to avoid these problems. Once an organism leaves the wild and enters private petkeeping, it and all its offspring need to stay there. 

[A.m.P]

13 hours ago, Tired said:

In every pet-keeping hobby that involves creatures which are suffering in the wild, this question of "can pets provide offspring to be reintroduced" pops up. And the answer is always, no, they cannot.

 

There's two main problems. One is that the creatures have been exposed, directly and indirectly, to other creatures from all over the world. That means they've been exposed to pathogens from all over the world, and often to strains of pathogens only found in captive populations. Releasing those animals into the wild would release those pathogens, which, not being native to the local environment, would be pathogens the local wildlife has no resistance to. Something a bit like this can be seen with backyard chickens: it's best not to keep them with other game birds, as chickens can carry many pathogens they're resistant to, but non-domestic game birds have no resistance at all. Keeping chickens and, say, coturnix quail together can kill the quail from pathogen exposure. 

 

The other is, as mentioned above, these creatures are now acclimated to captivity. This is an issue even in zoo captive-breeding programs, as only those animals calm enough in captivity to breed can be bred at all, but is especially bad with pets. Selection for tameness, hardiness in specifically captive conditions, and aesthetics can really take a toll. Probably not quite so much in corals, since they aren't being selectively bred (accidentally or not) for any traits, but I'd bet money that a coral whose original "ancestor" (for lack of a better word for "frag parent many times removed") was collected years ago will act differently than its ancestor did.

 

(There's also frequently a concern of accidental hybridization producing offspring that look like the original species but are not, but that's not really a concern with corals. More with dart frogs, which is where I've seen this argument hashed out a number of times. It always comes back to these same things.)

 

Living arks exist, but they exist at facilities that are doing their best to avoid these problems. Once an organism leaves the wild and enters private petkeeping, it and all its offspring need to stay there. 

I appreciate you taking the time, the "hobby level living ark" argument isn't new and it's almost always about self-aggrandizement or justification, and very, very rarely about the animals themselves. That's before even going into the messy details about it being a stance of moral justification which doesn't hold up well to scrutiny, data, or can be outright insulting towards actual conservationists and/or real effort/facilities/information. Everyone thinks they're sanjay...

[mcarroll]

3 hours ago, A.m.P said:

Everyone thinks they're sanjay...

 

There can be only one!

[Tired]

I mean, I can see why people would think that the corals in the hobby might be useful for reintroduction. There are certainly quite a lot of them, and the idea of fragging captive corals and putting them back on reefs is a nice one. I think a lot of people probably just don't realize the issues that are in the way. Believe me, I wish it worked like that! Outsourcing coral propagation to hobbyists who could compete to submit the most healthy frags for 'release' would probably be pretty useful, if it did work that way. 

 

But the fact remains- and let me be clear before I say this. I am not against sustainable wild collection of creatures to be pets, if those creatures can reasonably be kept alive (i.e. not crinoids unless by special request of someone who's actually able to keep them). But once an animal is removed from the wild and placed into private petkeeping, that animal is as good as dead to wild populations. It's not going back, its descendents aren't going back. It might help its wild relatives by inspiring others to conservation, or forwarding research, but it's cut off from the wild. Not an inherently evil thing to do, just worth knowing. 

 

As to collecting corals in Hawaii, I would be very careful of legality. Same with importing. If you can find a place where you can both legally and ethically collect corals (i.e. you'll do no harm of note to the wild population), go for it! Or there's another angle, sometimes used with carnivorous plants; if you can find plants or corals that are legal to collect, and about to be destroyed by construction, you may as well take as many as you can carry. Many carnivorous plants are slow-growing and their populations are best not disturbed, but if someone's building a boardwalk right over some sundews, no harm in taking a big chunk of them that would otherwise be mulch.

Basically: you should not be damaging the wild habitat just for your own entertainment. And laws... generally exist for a reason. Sometimes they're overly broad, done in a way that's useless, or would just be useless either way. But even if you find a circumstance in which something would be illegal but harmless to the environment, you shouldn't do that. Don't need to be encouraging people to break laws about wildlife conservation. Also don't need to be giving anyone any ideas that reefkeepers like to go bust up reefs to put in their aquariums.