Managing Nitrates - Convert WD to fuge or Macro in DT?

[stevie1493]

Okay so here's the situation. I have had my 55g DT set up for two months and have tested Nitrate and Phosphate weekly for the last month. On 08/07 when the tank was three weeks old I first tested NO3 and the result was higher than I expected. Maybe I am falling into old habits in terms of chasing numbers, but I am not comfortable with these test results:

 

8/07 - 38.3ppm NO3; (didn't test PO4)

8/14 - 21ppm NO3; 0.21ppm PO4

8/21 - 20.5ppm NO3; 0.5ppm PO4

8/29 - 24.3ppm;  0.26ppm PO4

 

I want to act and nip this in the bud. I use Hanna Checkers for both NO3 and PO4. I have been performing 10-30% weekly WC in this tank. I make my own RO/DI water and recently switched to Brightwell salt. When I tested my freshly mixed SW this weekend the result was 0.01ppm NO3...I didn't test PO4. Currently the only stock in the tank are two juvenile clowns. I generally feed twice daily, sometimes once. My routine is usually to feed about a pinky nail sized flake in the AM and enough frozen in the PM that is consumed in 1min or less. In terms of filtration I have an Eshopps WD filter (2 chambers) with around 5g water volume, a skimmer rated for 75g, and run chemi pure elite. I only have a few BioBalls and about 30lbs of LR under the drip plate. The tank is set up with dry rock and sand (4.5" DSB). This will be a soft coral tank exclusively. I had a close to identical setup about five years ago that had similar Nitrate issues. I heard from Marc at Melev's Reef that WD filters are notorious Nitrate factories. I am considering 3 courses of action:

 

Option 1 - Convert the WD filter to a traditional sump using a Filter Sock Mount. Remove the protein skimmer from the return chamber and move most of the LR from the drip chamber to the return chamber. Use my spare Kessil A160 as a refugium light and begin to grow Chaeto in a small refugium (around 2.5g water volume).

 

Option 2  - Leave the WD filter as is and stock macro algae such as gracilaria, halimeda, etc. in the DT

 

Option 3 - Convert the WD filter to a refugium as in option 1 AND stock macro in the DT.

 

What other options would you consider? Am I feeding too much? What else could be causing this? Should I even be worried about these numbers? Did I not perform large enough WC after the cycle was over? (I really don't want to be in the habit of doing larger than a weekly 10-20% WC). I am open to all feedback and suggestions - Thanks!

[Tired]

Those numbers are fine for soft corals, which will likely reduce the nutrients anyway. No harm in some decorative macros if you want 'em.

 

Weird your nutrients are relatively high with just two little fish, though. I don't know enough about the filter type you're describing to know if it contributes, but I know a tank of that size, with two little clowns, shouldn't have high nutrients with weekly water changes. That said, a nitrate factory might be a good thing, if you want lots of soft corals. They'll love that. 

 

You are definitely not feeding too much. 

[stevie1493]

10 minutes ago, Tired said:

Those numbers are fine for soft corals, which will likely reduce the nutrients anyway. No harm in some decorative macros if you want 'em.

Well on Thursday this week I'm getting a shipment from IPSF including a leather coral and anthelia polyps, as well as a ton of other critters (worms, snails, hermits, mini stars). So we'll see how they do.

 

Still thinking about the macros. A month or so after this new stock settles I will place an order with Reef Cleaners and maybe get some macro then.

 

At what levels would you begin to be concerned with Nitrate in a softie tank?

[NoOneLikesADryTang]

Really, consistency is key for reef tanks. We had a RFA/zoa tank that had a consistent nitrate of 40ppm. It grew zoas like crazy. I think your numbers are fine for a softie tank. 

[debbeach13]

I also would not worry about those numbers for a softy tank😉The tank is still young. Let it settle in some more. 

[Clown79]

I wouldn't be overly worried.

 

I had phos go up to 0.37 with no ill effects and i had mixed reef. 

 

I'd rather higher nutrients to no nutrients. 

 

The corals will start using up the nutrients. Right now you don't have much using up the available nutrients.

 

I don't know what filter you are using(WD) but if its a known nitrate factory, then maybe that is something that may need changing in future.

 

Bioballs could be another thing to look into. They aren't preferred these days due to the problems that arise from them if they aren't kept clean.

 

Adding macro in display is always nice, it has a natural look to it and can help.

[stevie1493]

6 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I don't know what filter you are using(WD) but if its a known nitrate factory, then maybe that is something that may need changing in future.

It's an Eshopps WD75CS. I think they're really designed for fresh water. When I got into the hobby the owner of the LFS I went to used them on all her tanks and helped me set up my first tank the same way she had all hers.

 

[Tired]

Yeah, that's gonna catch detritus in the media/rock and produce nitrates. Again, maybe not a bad thing. Softies might love it. 

[jservedio]

I don't see any problems with your setup at all and agree your numbers are fine. Not sure where you got your rock or sand from, but that may be a source. If you have no omnivore or carnivore CUC (hermits, nassarius, etc), uneaten food entirely breaking down can bump the nutrients.

[stevie1493]

44 minutes ago, Tired said:

Yeah, that's gonna catch detritus in the media/rock and produce nitrates. Again, maybe not a bad thing. Softies might love it. 

When I had this setup before I would take the LR out once every 3-6 months and set it in tank water while I cleaned out all the detritus from both chambers. Even when the tank was well established around 2 years I hovered around 20-40 nitrate depending on how well I kept up with WC. Sometimes I would do aggressive water changes to get down to <10 Nitrate but it would always be back to >20 within a month or so even with regular WC.

 

I've never had macro or a refugium before. I'm still on the fence, but I'm leaning toward option 2 after hearing everyone's feedback. I really want to try my hand at a refugium though, and I have this spare Kessil just collecting dust. My intuition tells me having macro in a fuge competing with macro in the DT seems undesirable now that I think of it more. I like the look of macros, but am somewhat intimidated by scaping with them and am worried about overdoing it and robbing myself of valuable real estate for corals. 

 

@brad908's tank below is an inspiration and probably the featured tank that I keep finding myself wanting to emulate with my own twist with this build. I initially planned on using mangroves but the dimensions of my tank would have made it awkward imo.

 

Anyone interested in convincing me to dust off my Kessil and convert this into a fuge?

 

 

 

[Subsea]

Don’t chase numbers, even on a mature tank.  Yours is very young.  I have systems that are 25 yrs young and I add ammonia to all 500G in my home every day.  The worst thing you can do in a mixed garden reef is run low nitrates.

 

consider a cryptic refugium using good quality live rock.  Cryptic sponges process DOC & DOM 1000 times faster than protein skimmer.  Also cryptic sponges process DOM into detritus which feeds the microbial loop to move  carbon up the food chain.  Also, detritus accumulated from display tank water will combine to make MULM in your sump/refugium.

I like your refugium with the bioballs.  The 25 yr 75G tank with Jaubert plenum has  a 30G EcoSystem mud macro refugium which I converted into cryptic refugium with mud filter.  

 

Abstract

Ever since Darwin’s early descriptions of coral reefs, scientists have debated how one of the world’s most productive and diverse ecosystems can thrive in the marine equivalent of a desert. It is an enigma how the flux of dissolved organic matter (DOM), the largest resource produced on reefs, is transferred to higher trophic levels. Here we show that sponges make DOM available to fauna by rapidly expelling filter cells as detritus that is subsequently consumed by reef fauna. This “sponge loop” was confirmed in aquarium and in situ food web experiments, using ¹³C- and ¹⁵N-enriched DOM. The DOM-sponge-fauna pathway explains why biological hot spots such as coral reefs persist in oligotrophic seas—the reef’s paradox—and has implications for reef ecosystem functioning and conservation strategies.

 

 

https://wamas.org/forums/topic/78578-mulm-in-a-reef-tank/

 

https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.1241981

 

Picture #1 is 4 month young ornamental seaweed mixed garden 55G lagoon

 

picture #2 is 25 yr young mixed garden.

 

All of my systems have cryptic refugiums and most have mud/detritus filtration.  Yes, I run high nutrient systems.  View my thread on nutrient management by old school reefer.

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nutrient-management-by-“old-school”-reefer.784640/

 

[DevilDuck]

As the others were saying those numbers are fine, let it be for now.

Once you start adding corals and/or the tank starts to mature and enter the "ugly phase" the nitrate and phosphates will start dropping.

You'll probably find that you will need to dose to keep them detectable.

 

 

 

[stevie1493]

4 hours ago, Subsea said:

I like your refugium with the bioballs.  The 25 yr 75G tank with Jaubert plenum has  a 30G EcoSystem mud macro refugium which I converted into cryptic refugium with mud filter.  

Very interesting strategy that I have not considered. I skimmed through the links provided but will read through thoroughly tonight. I've honestly never heard of a cryptic refugium. Is there a significant cost/benefit in your research between a cryptic fuge and macro fuge?

 

Also, what species of sponges and detritivores would you be stocking to make the most of a cryptic fuge?

[stevie1493]

15 hours ago, jservedio said:

Not sure where you got your rock or sand from, but that may be a source.

Most of the rock is fiji rock that I purchased live from LFS 5 years ago. I let it dry completely after I tore my last tank down and recently bleach cured and natural cured. About 25% of the rock is reef saver dry rock.

 

Sand is a mixture of caribsea Fiji pink and special grade. Was live sand in previous tanks, I rinsed it thoroughly after taking it out of storage - no bleach.

[jservedio]

35 minutes ago, stevie1493 said:

Most of the rock is fiji rock that I purchased live from LFS 5 years ago. I let it dry completely after I tore my last tank down and recently bleach cured and natural cured. About 25% of the rock is reef saver dry rock.

 

Sand is a mixture of caribsea Fiji pink and special grade. Was live sand in previous tanks, I rinsed it thoroughly after taking it out of storage - no bleach.

 

Yep, that'll do it in terms of nutrients! Don't worry about changing anything and eventually all of the nutrients leaching from the rocks will reach equilibrium with the tank water through osmosis/diffusion and be used up by bacteria, algae, and other microscopic life.

 

Your new dry rock is also soaking up phosphates right now and will continue to do that for a while (a few months to maybe a year depending on concentration) which is why they aren't changing at the same rates.

[Subsea]

44 minutes ago, stevie1493 said:

Very interesting strategy that I have not considered. I skimmed through the links provided but will read through thoroughly tonight. I've honestly never heard of a cryptic refugium. Is there a significant cost/benefit in your research between a cryptic fuge and macro fuge?

 

Also, what species of sponges and detritivores would you be stocking to make the most of a cryptic fuge?

The specific names are in the research links.  Purchase diver collected live rock as your most significant, long term investment in biodiversity.  I get mine from Gulf Live Rock using next day air freight to maximize biodiversity.

 

https://gulfliverock.com/premium-deco-live-rock

 

Significant cost benefit is the wrong question.  Biochemistry is complex, so I will generalize to paint a broad picture.  And when you ask specific questions, I will give you specific answers. if I know.  
 

Before we move too deep into biochemistry, you should understand DOC, dissolved organic carbon.  All photosynthetic activity produces DOC as exudates.  Coral DOC normally consists of lipids & proteins while algae DOC consists of glucose.  All three compounds are required building blocks for biomass.  
 

macro refugiums absorb inorganic nutrients (N,P,K) to be removed as nutrient export.

 

cryptic refugiums recycle both inorganic & organic nutrients into live food to move up the food chain via the microbial loop. 

 

 

 

 

[jservedio]

44 minutes ago, Subsea said:

macro refugiums absorb inorganic nutrients (N,P,K) to be removed as nutrient export.

 

cryptic refugiums recycle both inorganic & organic nutrients into live food to move up the food chain via the microbial loop. 

A Cryptic refugium is a long term strategy and they take a very long time to fully develop. However, once they get going, the are absurdly effective and can keep a tank going indefinitely. It's not something you can set up overnight and will build for years and years, slowly ramping up.

 

To give OP an idea of just of effective this strategy is, I had maybe 1-1.5lbs of really good LR rubble in my sump that after around 4-5 years the sump was so efficient at processing both organic and inorganic nutrients that in order to maintain a healthy level of nutrients in my tank and moving it up the food chain, I had to remove every other form of nutrient export (turned off skimmer, no chemical filtration, no other mechanical filtration), stopped doing regular water changes (10-15% every 6-8 weeks or more), and was feeding frozen nearly every day plus pellets twice per day. I would let detritus build up to 1/8-1/4" deep across the entire sump and every week or two actually kick some up into the water column to raise my nutrients. I credit this as one of the primary reasons I was able to keep my 20g running for more than 10 years.

 

IMO sponges (clathrina and sycon) are some the most adept nutrient exporters in our tanks - just like our corals, sponges have symbionts and are fantastic at soaking everything up from the smallest of picoplankton to large organic molecules at the interface between the biological and chemical worlds all the way down to directly taking up inorganic molecules (both dissolved and released by the sponge itself) via their symbionts. There's been tons of new research in the past 5 years specifically about sponge holobiont and they are almost as fascinating as corals.

 

This is what that sump looked like after 10 years and just a couple pounds of rock, a bit of egg crate, and the surface on the glass were able to keep up with a very, very input heavy tank:

 

[stevie1493]

8 hours ago, Subsea said:

cryptic refugiums recycle both inorganic & organic nutrients into live food to move up the food chain via the microbial loop. 

After reading most of the material you linked I have a much more solid grasp on the technique and science behind it now. I will come back and pay to buy the issue of that journal article on sponges later for sure. My decision to go with my second option and keeping the filtration as is (LR+bioballs) in the sump area and stocking soft corals and macro in the DT would essentially be leaning into a cryptic refugium method...I just didn't know that was what it would be referred to as. Thank you for providing me the science for better understanding. Previously my idea was to clean out all of the detritus and take a sponge or scraper to everything in the sump area for maintenance, but now it seems that would be counter-productive.

 

Other than adding as much biodiversity to the tank as possible to create a balanced cryptic ecosystem what type of maintenance routine goes into this type of filtration system?

 

I have been considering buying enough bioballs to fill the remaining space in my filter to provide more surface area and to silence the trickle filter a bit. Would you recommend purchasing more bioballs?

 

 Do you mind sharing some photos of your mud/refugium setup?

 

I stumbled upon this site awhile ago (http://www.reeffarmers.com/farmsponge.htm) and immediately thought of it while reading your posts. Have you ever heard of them? Any other suppliers out there for biodiversity other than gulf live rock? I am definitely considering a purchase from them of 10lbs of their decorative rock and maybe some live sand but am concerned about unwanted pests...

 

7 hours ago, jservedio said:

To give OP an idea of just of effective this strategy is, I had maybe 1-1.5lbs of really good LR rubble in my sump that after around 4-5 years the sump was so efficient at processing both organic and inorganic nutrients that in order to maintain a healthy level of nutrients in my tank and moving it up the food chain, I had to remove every other form of nutrient export (turned off skimmer, no chemical filtration, no other mechanical filtration)

 

What you are talking about is exactly what I envisioned for this tank...to eventually take out as much equipment and filtration as possible in order to allow the natural ecosystem to do all the heavy lifting for me! How did you obtain your LR rubble?

 

 

Sorry for all the questions. This thread has taken off more than I anticipated and I am very appreciative of everyone's contributions. I feel much better about my situation and am really excited about this tank!!

[Subsea]

( think you have enough bioballs.  I am not much concerned with pest,  I purchased 50lbs of live sand and 150 lbs of live rock.  In 4 months I found two Aptasia.

 

Steve Tyre founded reeffarmers and he wrote the book on cryptic refugiums.  I found his stuff pricey.  I still prefer GLR.  If you want detrivore kits with micro fauna & fana then check out IndoPacific SeaFarm.  http://ipsf.com

 

Pictures are difficult with no light in refugium. From ecosystem website

 

[stevie1493]

2 minutes ago, Subsea said:

If you want detrivore kits with micro fauna & fana then check out IndoPacific SeaFarm.  http://ipsf.com

Funnily enough I have an order from them currently in transit... Will arrive sometime tomorrow.

[jservedio]

10 hours ago, stevie1493 said:

What you are talking about is exactly what I envisioned for this tank...to eventually take out as much equipment and filtration as possible in order to allow the natural ecosystem to do all the heavy lifting for me! How did you obtain your LR rubble?

Honestly, I wasn't even trying to set my sump up like that and sort of developed on it's own. Back in 2010 when I set the tank up, it was a lot easier to get really high quality LR locally (albeit very expensively) and after scaping my tank with mostly garbage rock, sprung for some of the good stuff. Over the years as corals grew, I pulled rock out bit by bit and while I mostly took out crappy rock, if I needed to re-scape the good rock and had to take a chisel to it, I saved all of the chunks and put them in the sump.

 

It wasn't designed as a typical cryptic zone, but it sort of just exploded with sponges, worms, and all different kinds of life over a very long time. As the life ramped up in the sump and started colonizing everything, I removed all of my other filtration piece by piece until there was nothing left and the skimmer was the last to go. Compared to most, my tank had relatively high nutrients and not the fastest growth, but what I was really aiming for was coloration and it was great for that.

[Subsea]

@Timfish at Austin Reef Club indoctrinated me on sponge chemistry.   As I was a sponge already, I was intrigued with the science of the “sponge loop”.  It took yrs for the science of chemistry to sink in, but the results were evident in time.   
 

Cryptic refugiums  take many forms.  I use high flow canister filters as cryptic refugiums and as a convenient method to seed a tank.  Most recently, I use reverse flow undergravel filters as cryptic refugiums.

35 minutes ago, jservedio said:

Honestly, I wasn't even trying to set my sump up like that and sort of developed on it's own. Back in 2010 when I set the tank up, it was a lot easier to get really high quality LR locally (albeit very expensively) and after scaping my tank with mostly garbage rock, sprung for some of the good stuff. Over the years as corals grew, I pulled rock out bit by bit and while I mostly took out crappy rock, if I needed to re-scape the good rock and had to take a chisel to it, I saved all of the chunks and put them in the sump.

 

It wasn't designed as a typical cryptic zone, but it sort of just exploded with sponges, worms, and all different kinds of life over a very long time. As the life ramped up in the sump and started colonizing everything, I removed all of my other filtration piece by piece until there was nothing left and the skimmer was the last to go. Compared to most, my tank had relatively high nutrients and not the fastest growth, but what I was really aiming for was coloration and it was great for that.

 

35 minutes ago, jservedio said:

Honestly, I wasn't even trying to set my sump up like that and sort of developed on it's own. Back in 2010 when I set the tank up, it was a lot easier to get really high quality LR locally (albeit very expensively) and after scaping my tank with mostly garbage rock, sprung for some of the good stuff. Over the years as corals grew, I pulled rock out bit by bit and while I mostly took out crappy rock, if I needed to re-scape the good rock and had to take a chisel to it, I saved all of the chunks and put them in the sump.

 

It wasn't designed as a typical cryptic zone, but it sort of just exploded with sponges, worms, and all different kinds of life over a very long time. As the life ramped up in the sump and started colonizing everything, I removed all of my other filtration piece by piece until there was nothing left and the skimmer was the last to go. Compared to most, my tank had relatively high nutrients and not the fastest growth, but what I was really aiming for was coloration and it was great for that.

 

[stevie1493]

Thought I'd post some photos of what I decided to go with. 

 

This setup was online on 9/4/21. It's basically a two compartment sump with about 5-7gal water volume. A refugium/drain compartment and a skimmer/return compartment with a semi-cryptic zone.

 

Fuge has Ulva, Fern Caulerpa, and Red Gracilaria and about 10lbs of rock. The Kessil 160WE that lights the fuge averages around 40% intensity at 10,000K during a 12hr photoperiod from 00:00 to 12:00. I also have some corraline seed pieces in the fuge.

 

I have what I think is cyano in the fuge and skimmer section, due to light spillage. which has steadily increased over the last week. I'm considering siphoning and sponging it all out or putting some CUC members down there like astraea snails 

 

The return compartment has about 25lbs of rock in addition to the skimmer and Return pump. Skimmer has been getting a nice dark skimmate since I dialed it it within the last few weeks. Two bags of chemi pure elite.

 

The only mechanical filtration is a sponge in the overflow box. I am considering removing this if nutrients become a problem.

 

As much as diver collected life rock intrigues me, I just can't get myself to accept the risk of introducing a mantis shrimp or some other baddie into my tank.

 

Instead, after the tank settles in a few months I would like to seed my cryptic area with a standard seed cryptic sponge pack from http://www.reeffarmers.com/farmsponge.htm

 

[mcarroll]

Is there actually a way to order from reef farmers?

[stevie1493]

On 10/13/2021 at 2:51 PM, mcarroll said:

Is there actually a way to order from reef farmers?

I've never placed an order with them but my understanding is you need to send them an email at reeffarmers@rocketmail.com