Dinoflagellates creating a sandbed black out acrylic puzzle (black out pieces)

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

Okay, so I have a good question. My dinos are large cell amphidiums. Why do they only stay on the sandbed and not my live rock? I do see some reefers shut down their systems becuase the dinos overun rocks, corals etc.

Mine hug the sandbed like mad, I vacuum them out with at 25 micron sock and this really helps keep the population down, they do regroup and I hit them the next day again.

But they are not going on my live rock at all, I have live rock from the ocean, paid a lot for it, it was aquacultured.

I never started with dry rock that as it is a magnet for all sorts of unwanted algaes, etc to grow on the surface.

So, I am wanting to ask, why not just place some say plate corals or even other small rocks that have corals on top of the live rock, to be placed on the gravel that has dinos?

You see when I moved around my live rock when I was cleaning the gravel of dinos, under the live rock is zero dinos, I am assuming they like the light and need it for some form of metabolism.

Are there any other reefers out there, that have ugly dinos only on the sandbed but nothing on their rocks?

If the dinos were not ugly nasty yellow/green snut, like if they were a nice see through color, my aquarium would look so nice.

I can't wait for my 5 micron sock to arrive, this Thursday I do batle again and will rank it against the 25 micron sock that has helped a lot.

Any suggestions about placing things over these dinos, I even thought about cutting a thing black piece of acrylic on my CNC machine to place over the area that has dinos, THINK OF IT AS A PUZZLE, WHEN YOU PLACE IT ONTO THE MAP, BELOW CAN NO LONGER HAVE LIGHT, WILL THAT WORK, I AM THINKING ABOUT IT, THAT WAY THEY DON'T HAVE ANY LIGHT TO WORK WITH BUT THE LIVE ROCK AND CORALS CONTINUE TO GETLIGHT.

Just a frustrated thinkign out the box Reefer.

 

 

 

 

[Tired]

I don't see why it would hurt anything, so it's worth a try. Curious if it would work. 

[kimberbee]

Interesting thought. But it would be difficult to cover the sandbed completely.

 

I have the same dinos (I'm assuming) and I've given up fighting. I did a 1/2 gallon water change after 3 months to help replenish trace elements, and the dinos flooded my sandbed again a few days later. 

[rough eye]

brilliant! that piece of acrylic will provide a nice fresh surface for them to grow on instead! until you move it, that is.

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

6 hours ago, kimberbee said:

Interesting thought. But it would be difficult to cover the sandbed completely.

 

I have the same dinos (I'm assuming) and I've given up fighting. I did a 1/2 gallon water change after 3 months to help replenish trace elements, and the dinos flooded my sandbed again a few days later. 

Did you ever ID yours, were they Amphidiums?  Did they ever leave your sandbed and infest your live rock, did they get on your corals.  MIne are all over just the sandbed.  I get a lot of them with a 25 micron sock, but in 24hours the next day they are back, but only on the live rock.  

 

That is why I thougth to do a black out of acrylic on top of the sandbed, going to try just to see what happens?

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

1 hour ago, rough eye said:

brilliant! that piece of acrylic will provide a nice fresh surface for them to grow on instead! until you move it, that is.

The idea is that if they like  to hug that top layer of the sandbed, which they love to do, placed a square black piece of arcrylic to see if when I lift it up at the end of the day, is there a white patch of sandbed.

 

If your theory is correct and they just move on top of a black piece of acrylic then this idea is trully flawed.

 

But the reason I am attempting, the Dinoflagellates are not on my live rock, none they hyg the top layer of the sandbed. 

 

Could it be that because the live rock is colonized, it is not giving itself up to Dinos?  Will this be flawed since acrylic surface is readhy to receive any form of life, incuding good film algae that does grow on my panels, will they also grow on the top of the black acrylic, or will it be dinos, it hasn't been tried, so I am thinking?

 

Help me out and think with me, what do you think?

[rough eye]

looking forward to hearing the results of your experiment.

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

41 minutes ago, rough eye said:

looking forward to hearing the results of your experiment.

I am reading up on these guys look what I read:

 

"Very few dinoflagellates use only sunlight to produce energy. Most are mixotrophic rather than purely photosynthetic (homotrophic) and digest particles located in their watery environment. Homotrophic phototropic and mixotrophic dinoflagellates contain plastids that manufacture and store food produced from photosynthesis. This food is stored in the form of amino acids, starch, and lipids."

 

So, my experiment would show a slow down under the acrylic, in theory because they can continue to function because they are mixotrophic not just homotropic like I thought.  they use both sources to carry on their metabolism.

 

And then the one I think I have look what it says:

 

"The dinoflagellate Amphidinium is another potentially toxic genus, although rarely fatal. As it stays close to the sand even at night (unlike most types of dinoflagellate), its dormant cysts may contaminate aquarium sand sold for marine fish displays.

 

My micron 5 filter came in today, and I filtered out the top layer to see if it works better than my 25 micron sock.  The vacuumed filtered water that went back into my aquarium was crystal clear compared to my previous micron 25 sock, I could see that difference, now to see how long the Dinos take to come back which they will but will it be less?

[kimberbee]

3 hours ago, Micro-Reefs Aquariums said:

Did you ever ID yours, were they Amphidiums?  Did they ever leave your sandbed and infest your live rock, did they get on your corals. 

My dinos have been hanging around since Thanksgiving. Pretty much they stay on the sandbed. I have mushrooms, palys, sinularia, toadstool, and RFAs that don't seem to be too bothered. I'm assuming amphidinium because they don't seem to be on the rocks, my snails are still alive, and blackouts don't seem to help. 

 

I tired cleaning, not cleaning, blackouts, dosing nitrates/phosphates... I've just given up and the tanks will look however they look. At the 6 month mark, I just got tired of all the constant testing and dosing. 🤷‍♀️ Yes, tankS, plural. It's in both tanks. 

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

14 hours ago, kimberbee said:

My dinos have been hanging around since Thanksgiving. Pretty much they stay on the sandbed. I have mushrooms, palys, sinularia, toadstool, and RFAs that don't seem to be too bothered. I'm assuming amphidinium because they don't seem to be on the rocks, my snails are still alive, and blackouts don't seem to help. 

 

I tired cleaning, not cleaning, blackouts, dosing nitrates/phosphates... I've just given up and the tanks will look however they look. At the 6 month mark, I just got tired of all the constant testing and dosing. 🤷‍♀️ Yes, tankS, plural. It's in both tanks. 

I couldn't agree more with you, I feel the more I went in to intercept the more I lost corals and did more damage than good.  I am seeing if they exhaust themselves out with nutrition, as they are mixotrophic. both using light and nutrition in the water column to keep them going.

 

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

I have a new concept now:  THE GOOD, (DIATOMS) THE BAD (OSTEO DINOFLAGELLATES) AND THE UGLY (AMPHIDINIUM DINOFLAGELLATES)!

 

THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY!

 

I have been reefing since 1991 when I was 21 years young, now at 2021 at the age of 51 and what I thought was wise unitl meeting Dinoflagellates and them schooling into being naive, I have come up with liking Diatoms wPUrhhen before they were my foes.

 

Vacuuming with a Micron 25, then with a Micron 5 filter sock, DOESN'T DO NOTHING BUT MAKE THE SAND GORGEOUS WHITE FOR ALMOST 24 HOURS.

 

Purhasing a Tiger Conch, will eliminate 98% of diatoms, yummy they love it and are the vacuum cleaners of diatoms, but THEY WILL NOT TOUCH, AMPHIDINIUMS! If they do taste it they will burry themselves in the sand for a 24 hour hold, on the stomach ache they received for trying that out for dinner.

 

Reducing whites from LEDs and increasing blues, makes it better for a short time, takes longer for the Dinos to regroup and multiply. If the whites were on, wow they do it quicker.

 

Raising the temperature from 77-78F to 82-83F, AMPHIDINIUMS, they don't care! Doesn't do a darn thing to them at all, in fact they seem to have reproduced more, warmer water, faster metabolism.

 

Keeping my Phosphate .03-09, Nitrates 5-15ppm still working on this concept for 2 weeks in and aquarium is not worse but it is not better!

 

Adding beneficial bacteria, like Microbacter 7, two weeks in not any better, not any worse!

 

Flushing filtered water from Micron 25 and Micron 5 filter through 100% by-pass UV, not any worse not any better.

 

Conclusion:

 

Large Cell Amphidiniums are here to stay, they are not going nowhere, they can have my sandbed, my rocks my corals are 100 percent free of Dinos, they are not interested, well at least not yet on the live rock which is aquacultured from the ocean, Keys of Florida. They are thriving on the sandbed, both from my lights and nutrition, this makes them both mixotrophic! These ugly guys are tough and resilient and that makes them almost bullet proof in our marine tanks.

 

My corals were suffering from my hands going into the tank and adding more mayhem, then they like, that stress knocked out a couple frags, so I stopped and brought back all parameters temp and lighting the same before and the corals are blooming once again.

 

This is not a fight to erradicate Dinos, no way! They have eluded predation and are part of the ecosystem in our tanks, I am led to believe they will burn themselves out into a smaller more un-noticeable area of my reef. When conditions favor them, they will explode, when conditions are against them, they will hibernate so they can live for the next run.

 

My microscope arrives this week, I cannot wait to learn more about these very ellusive Protist that has baffaled the reefing community. This is a hobby that fascinates me as easy as it irritates me when things go south. So, I miss the Good, Diatoms, I hate the Bad Osteo Dinos, and I really hate/dispise the Ugly Amphidinium but they are here to stay wilth us!

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

Two weeks in and see how the dinos have infected my SPS and LPS systems!

 

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

 

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

 

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

 

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

 

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

 

[mcarroll]

I would suggest going over the journal articles I've saved on dino's for some better reading material.  Check them out on my blog and feel free to post on there or here if you have any thoughts or questions on any of them: https://www.reefsuccess.com

 

One thing to begin with about your theory on light...

 

Our dino's are photosynthetic, but not very good at it.  The only reason you ever see them (actually clumps of them) is that in bright light they "snot up" together for light shielding.

 

At nighttime, under low light or shady conditions they have no need to do that and will operate as practically-invisible individuals.

 

My old "dino mega thread" on R2R has lots of info on this as well.   Amph. is not the best kind of dino to have your tank infected with....sorry about your luck.

 

5µ should be pretty good, BTW, but I'd have suggested a 1µ filter sock....1µ mesh should be easier to work with and clean vs a regular poly bag.

 

Keep us posted on any progress.  🙂