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Billy's Deep Sandbed Experiment


billygoat

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15 hours ago, gena said:

Jellies????  Woah...must be something new they are stocking.  Never saw those before...cool!!!!!

I think they have had them for awhile (they are everywhere in Florida and very easy to collect since they don't really move), but nobody ever buys or notices them. That's probably because they are a very bad choice for the average reef tank, and also because they're tucked away on KPA's "oddball invertebrates" page.

 

13 hours ago, growsomething said:

Certain times of the year dinner plate sized jellies like those are in the near-pass lagoons that I haunt by the hundreds.  They are sort of zebra-striped with purple and lay on the muck bottom.  They must like flow bcs I've never seen them far from a pass, but never in the pass. 

 

That tank now looks great, and just like a transition zone where a pass, channel, or rock rubble wall meets a flat.

Thank you! I watched a lot of amateur dive videos featuring upside-down jellies and noticed that they live... well, everywhere! Canals, estuaries, mud flats, lagoons, underneath of your local boat ramp... they definitely don't seem picky. We'll see if I can actually keep them alive, although honestly based on everything I've read it really doesn't seem that hard. They are photosynthetic, they eat all sorts of things, and they live in sludge - sounds like the perfect animal for this tank. 😂 

 

13 hours ago, DevilDuck said:

Wow! I just saw these things in the New Orlean's Aquarium. How long do they live? Will they breed in the tank?

They live for a couple of years if they are well fed, and they should reproduce in the tank for sure. However I think it's unlikely that any of the offspring will survive unless I intentionally propagate them by collecting gametes with a pipette and combining them in a separate culture system. But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it - first I need to see if I can keep them alive to begin with. 😅

 

13 hours ago, Tired said:

I was going to ask if you're planning on fish, but seeing those jellies, I'm thinking maybe not! Bit of a minefield in there for fishies. 

Their sting is mild and they don't really move around very much, so I think there would certainly be compatible fish choices if I had a mind to add some. The main obstacle to fish is that I'm unwilling to keep them in a tank without a lid. If the jellies don't work out I may reassess that plan and consider something like a pipefish that is unlikely to jump.

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So, my official opinion on the jellies after having them in my tank for 24 hours: I hate them. There are two major reasons for this.

 

  1. Flow. Upside-down jellies, or at least small ones, need a setup with near-zero water movement. Even moderate flow seems to interfere with their ability to capture food, and the slightest current blows them willy-nilly around the tank. If I turn off the powerhead and run only the HOB filter I am able to provide an environment that is amenable to their needs, but it's a terrible setup for literally all of my other livestock. The temperature goes wild without strong flow, and the seagrasses become overgrown with epiphytes. Flow is a major obstacle to success here.
  2. Mucus. These jellies exude large amounts of nematocyst-laden mucus. This is obviously not good for anything else in the system, and the fact that the jellies require low flow makes this mucus even more difficult to disperse. My Anthelia is all scrunched up and pouty, and strings of gunk are hanging on everything in my tank. Not a fan.

I knew these things about upside-down jellies before purchasing them, but only after I put them in my tank did I realize how specialized of a system they need. A setup designed for mangroves would probably be better, as those require considerably less flow to thrive. Seagrasses, on the other hand, grow much better with robust water movement.

 

Not sure how to proceed from here. I'm considering just euthanizing these animals in my freezer, so I can get the tank back on track. Normally I would be horrified at the thought of freezing freshly-purchased livestock without even giving them a chance but sea jellies are literally the least advanced animal that you can put in your tank (no hearts, brains, or complex nervous responses whatsoever) and contrary to my initial impressions they are obviously a poor match for this system, so I'm seriously considering it.

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I might consider setting up a little cookie jar setup (or some other small tank) just for them.  Maybe with an air bubbler for flow.

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10 minutes ago, seabass said:

I might consider setting up a little cookie jar setup (or some other small tank) just for them.  Maybe with an air bubbler for flow.

I suppose I could, as that is really the type of tank that they would do best in - a completely species-specific environment with nothing else going on. Even the airstone might cause problems though, as air bubbles can cause damage if they become trapped in the jellies' bodies. 

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Maybe a cookie jar with a really weak fountain pump? It's worth a shot, if the alternative is euthanizing them. Though I do agree that euthanizing them isn't unethical, since these are both a very common species and roughly equivalent to a meaty plant in intelligence. 

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52 minutes ago, Tired said:

Maybe a cookie jar with a really weak fountain pump? It's worth a shot, if the alternative is euthanizing them. Though I do agree that euthanizing them isn't unethical, since these are both a very common species and roughly equivalent to a meaty plant in intelligence. 

Jellyfish may actually qualify as marginally less aware than some plants, on average, but I believe upside down jellies are some of the most sophisticated and environmentally-aware/active out there (hilariously enough). I do not recall if you can eat upsidedown jellies, otherwise it sounds like they wouldn't be particularly difficult to set up a system for, but keeping them happy sounds a bit tricky.

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I guess the question is, can upside-down jellies learn? Mimosa pudica, the sensitive plant, can learn. There was an experiment awhile back that showed they can learn a certain stimulus isn't actually harmful, and can stop responding to it to save energy, while still responding to other potential threats.

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  • billygoat changed the title to Billy's Seagrass Experiment - Upside-Down Jellies... were a bad idea.
25 minutes ago, A.m.P said:

I do not recall if you can eat upsidedown jellies, otherwise it sounds like they wouldn't be particularly difficult to set up a system for, but keeping them happy sounds a bit tricky.

They have a very weak sting, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were edible. I am not super keen to try on this particular occasion, though. As for setting up a system for them - I think that if your stated objective was to culture upside-down jellies, you would be able to do so with an absolute minimum of fuss. They are indestructible and very prolific, but they need an environment that is absolutely tailor-made for them in order to thrive. Thinking I could get away with a fair simulation of the seagrass beds they inhabit in nature was hubristic of me. I did not fully grasp how specialized my setup would need to be in order to succeed, given the basic limitations of captive aquaria.

 

27 minutes ago, Tired said:

I guess the question is, can upside-down jellies learn? Mimosa pudica, the sensitive plant, can learn. There was an experiment awhile back that showed they can learn a certain stimulus isn't actually harmful, and can stop responding to it to save energy, while still responding to other potential threats.

I think the plant has a leg up on the jellies in this regard. They don't seem to be capable of anything other than responding to basic stimuli. I offered mine to an aquarist friend but she isn't interested (surprise surprise), so I think I will go ahead and freeze them.

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So I ended up putting the jellies in a pitcher with a heater and air bubbler. If I put the bubbler on super low and place it close to the surface it seems to be okay and not push the jellies around too much. Still no idea what I am going to do with these jellies but I want to think it over a bit longer and see if I can't come up with a use for them. It seems wasteful to just freeze them and be done with it, as tempting as that may be.

IMG_2035.thumb.JPG.d7197bb4e1bda338ae9500467a719c71.JPG

 

With the jellies gone, the HOB once again removed (I hate that thing), and the powerhead back up to speed, things are looking better already.

 

IMG_2036.thumb.JPG.8095623854154a10b08cd566264e1c1d.JPG

 

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I hope you are able to figure out what to do with the jellies!  Maybe put an ad on FB Marketplace.  You never know...someone may have the perfect setup for them!

 

I just went to KP Aquatics website and don't see them on there.  They do have a bunch of things now that they never used to sell.  I saw they are still using some photos I gave them as a trade for some livestock lol.  The neon gobies and the masked goby were from my tank :).

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growsomething

I'd just freeze them.  Like you said, they are basically meaty plants.  Ice water is how we euthanize fish, crabs or shrimp we are going to consume around here.  

Tank looks like an ecosystem instead of a neon art piece.  

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Ice water isn't an approved euthanasia method for laboratories to use for fish, and shouldn't be approved for crustaceans, as crustaceans are now thought to feel pain. Laboratory standards are a good way to check if something is humane. For pets, clove oil is a good method, but might taste weird for food. With food animals, just look up enough about their anatomy to know where the brain is, then put a knife through it. 

 

I might just have to try a seagrass tank in the future sometime. It's a really cool look so far, interested to see how it grows out. 

 

Any thoughts on what fish you might get? I feel like something sneaky-colored would be good, preferably weird-shaped, though I don't know if there's much weird-shaped that'd work. Shrimpfish hang around seagrass sometimes, right? And they're really cool fish, with how strange they look and how they move. But those are tricky to keep, like pipefish. 

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Oh! Absolutely get a rhino blenny, if you can. I used to have one. Delightful little fish, all the blenny personality in a reasonably unusual shape. 

 

Or there's always waspfish. Also used to have one of those. Kinda like a blenny/goby combination with a big gulping mouth. Venomous, but it's only the "ow, that hurts like hell" kind of venomous, not the "somebody call an ambulance" kind. 

 

(They did have a really unfortunate incident wherein something startled them both, the waspfish hunched and flared its spines, the rhino blenny dashed around in panic, and they met in a most unfortunate manner. Then I did not have a rhino blenny. But I don't think that's likely to happen again. You don't really hear about people having a fish dash itself onto the spines of a lionfish, after all, and they're even pointier.)

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growsomething
11 hours ago, Tired said:

Ice water isn't an approved euthanasia method for laboratories to use for fish, and shouldn't be approved for crustaceans, as crustaceans are now thought to feel pain. Laboratory standards are a good way to check if something is humane. For pets, clove oil is a good method, but might taste weird for food. With food animals, just look up enough about their anatomy to know where the brain is, then put a knife through it. 

 

For sure Tired, with tank fish, clove oil or snipping through the brain stem is best.  Trying to stab a 2' redfish or 6" blue crab on a rocking skiff would be brutal and a horror movie though.  Crabs and shrimp on ice, fish in a saltwater slush.  It also effects taste as they seem to go numb and not struggle.

I recently read a NG article where biologists sedate trout in a West Asian lake to strip eggs and sperm from them, then release them after recovery to spawn again.  They do it to lessens stress to increase survival, and it would do so for us as our tank fish die.

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14 hours ago, gena said:

The neon gobies and the masked goby were from my tank :).

That's amazing! I've bought from KP so many times over the years and I have seen those pictures again and again, and here I am in the presence of their creator. I feel honored. 😂 Seriously though they could use some new livestock photos. Some of their stuff is super dated or just has no picture at all, lol. They're such a great company but their website looks like it was made in 1998 (and it probably was, to be fair).

 

All of those fish that you folks suggested seem like they'd probably work out (except for the shrimpfish - I used to work with those in wholesale and know they'd be a dud in here. They need a bit less flow and more vertical space) , but to be honest with you I don't think I'm going to be adding any fish in the near future. This may seem weird coming from someone who focuses as much time and energy into aquaria as I do, but... I don't even really like fish. 😅 I love all the different environments and complex systems that exist in the sea and I recognize that fish are a big part of all that, but for my personal tanks I have to say I prefer the company of invertebrates. They are so much easier to take care of (in my opinion) and when something goes wrong I don't feel nearly as bad about killing them. 😬

 

Speaking of which... I went ahead and froze the jellies. So much for that idea! I wasn't kidding when I said this tank is experimental, and those jellies were my first definitive failure. Let this be a lesson to any home aquarist considering upside-down jellies: unless you have a setup that is absolutely centered around them, getting jellies is a bad idea. If for some reason I decide to focus on them in the future I think I'd want a sumped tank (or at least an AIO) that could allow me to have a separate space to increase gas exchange (e.g. with an airstone, overflows, etc.) while still keeping flow in the display extremely low and eliminating any risk of sucking the animals into filters or powerheads. I'd probably also incorporate a protein skimmer, as jellies are filthy. The system would not need to be completely species specific - Cassiopea jellies are displayed alongside archerfish and low-flow corals like Euphyllia at the aquarium where I work - but the jellies must take center stage in any system looking to display them, and secondary livestock should be selected with that in mind.

 

As for next steps here in the seagrass sandbox: I am going to look at other invertebrate options that would do well in this tank, but I don't think I am going to add anything right away. I am considering adding an additional powerhead though. If I mounted two powerheads next to each other and pointed them in opposite directions, I could synch them to alternately ramp up and down every six hours to simulate tidal flows. I think it might be a neat effect. 🤔

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growsomething

What aquarium do you work at, and in what capacity?

There is an aquarium/research center here called Mote Marine that is building a new display/public outreach center and I've thought about volunteering at it in physical maintenance when completed.  They're very good at what they do.  I've had them come pick up sea turtles I've found and they come at all hours.

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6 hours ago, billygoat said:

That's amazing! I've bought from KP so many times over the years and I have seen those pictures again and again, and here I am in the presence of their creator. I feel honored. 😂 Seriously though they could use some new livestock photos. Some of their stuff is super dated or just has no picture at all, lol. They're such a great company but their website looks like it was made in 1998 (and it probably was, to be fair).

 

LOL I feel so special.  I agree...could use an update.  But it must be working great for them so I guess why fix what isn't broken.  I need to place an order with them again for something.  Not sure what, but something.  Maybe some mushrooms.  When they get back from vacation :).

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22 hours ago, growsomething said:

What aquarium do you work at, and in what capacity?

I am an ocean science educator at the Aquarium of the Pacific in Long Beach, CA.

 

If you're considering volunteering for a public aquarium or marine research facility, I say: please do it! Non-profit conservation organizations tend to rely very heavily on volunteers, and they can generally use all the help they can get. And if you have specialized technical skills that will bring something unique to the table (e.g. electrical, plumbing, dive certification, captain's license, etc.), then you'll probably be a highly desirable asset for them. Most volunteers at my organization work a five-hour shift once per week, so the workload is pretty low overall.

17 hours ago, gena said:

LOL I feel so special.  I agree...could use an update.  But it must be working great for them so I guess why fix what isn't broken.  I need to place an order with them again for something.  Not sure what, but something.  Maybe some mushrooms.  When they get back from vacation :).

Funny that you mention this... I was browsing KPA's site this morning and noticed that they added an "in stock" filter! They seem to have busted their menus in the process, and every time you change tabs you have to re-click the filter, but still... progress! 😂

 

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@billygoat Sorry the jellyfish didn’t work out. I guess the professionals at the aquarium make all this stuff look easy!

 

I used to live in Long Beach, CA and frequented the Aquarium! I miss that neighborhood and all the characters. I also miss Roscoe’s fried chicken and waffles!

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34 minutes ago, DevilDuck said:

@billygoat Sorry the jellyfish didn’t work out. I guess the professionals at the aquarium make all this stuff look easy!

 

I used to live in Long Beach, CA and frequented the Aquarium! I miss that neighborhood and all the characters. I also miss Roscoe’s fried chicken and waffles!

Roscoe's 🥰 .  I miss them too!!!!  We want to take a road-trip to SoCal just to go to all the restaurants we miss so much. 

 

@billygoat their site was acting a little funny for me too when I was on there a couple of days ago.  I got an error message at one point.  I'll have to check out the new update LOL.

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On 8/7/2021 at 8:14 AM, DevilDuck said:

@billygoat Sorry the jellyfish didn’t work out. I guess the professionals at the aquarium make all this stuff look easy!

 

I used to live in Long Beach, CA and frequented the Aquarium! I miss that neighborhood and all the characters. I also miss Roscoe’s fried chicken and waffles!

They sure do make it look easy. 😂 And in all fairness - I really do think those jellies are easy! You just need a very specific system to keep them properly, and I did not respect that fact.

 

You guys should let me know if you ever come to town and feel like visiting the Aquarium. I can definitely help you out with that. 😁

 

Here are some pictures from the tank. It looks... well, about as you'd expect it to look, I guess. I am cultivating the primordial slush from which all life arose. 

 

IMG_2039.thumb.JPG.f05cdceb54b52511156caa7b1a1ee046.JPG

 

As filthy as it looks from this angle though (and don't get me wrong - it is indeed filthy!), a view from the side reveals that film algae growth is now largely confined to the front glass.

 

IMG_2040.thumb.JPG.f3aa0144bf1a6db12cca2ea593286ae8.JPG

 

Interestingly, this new brown film algae seems to be a less-favorable habitat for copepods than the green sheeting algae that it replaced. Pods are still present, but not in the numbers that they displayed before. The water is yellowish from accumulated humic substances, but I think that's probably fine. All of this mess should clear up once the decaying stuff on my live rocks becomes completely assimilated. This process is definitely still ongoing: a few days ago I tested ammonia in the morning and came back with a reading of 0.2ppm. I should test it again in the evening to see if this is a daily cycle; it wouldn't surprise me if ammonia builds up in the tank during the night and is then consumed during daylight hours.

 

My seagrasses are displaying growth despite being pretty well gunked up by epiphytes. I'll try to get some better pictures of them later. I also ordered some Caulerpa to help speed the clearing-up process along. I may remove it later on if it interferes with the growth of my seagrasses, but for the time being I think it will help settle things down in here. I read that most, if not all, species of Caulerpa produce allelopathic substances that inhibit the growth of pest algae, so I am interested in testing this out and seeing if it can be a natural biological control for the sludge I've got growing in here.

 

Thanks as always for reading! 🙏

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After some deliberation, I decided to move Chad the Rad Crab from my 40g reef over to this seagrass tank. Chad is a large hermit crab that I rescued from the wholesale warehouse shortly before I stopped working there earlier this year. He's been living in my reef tank for three or four months now and has been a bit of a pest because he likes to trample my corals. I figure the seagrass tank might be a more appropriate environment for him, given his total disregard for his surroundings. In here he can rip up pretty much whatever he wants. 🤷‍♂️

 

IMG_2042.JPG.c574c06627dcc3c46219921a9871160d.JPG   IMG_2043.JPG.b11539a2f9426449b61098549173048d.JPG

 

Chad has already proven himself very good at cleaning the epiphytes off my seagrasses. The only problem is that he accomplishes this by ripping off blades of grass, eating all of the pest algae that is growing on them, and then throwing them away. 😅 I think this behavior will abate once I get the pest algae under control, as Chad seems to have little interest in eating the seagrass itself. And even if it doesn't, maybe it's fine for the grasses to get roughed up every once in awhile. It probably encourages their growth.

 

Speaking of which, my grasses do seem to be growing well despite the gunk on their blades.

 

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I also got this cool photo the other day - little bubbles of oxygen from photosynthetic organisms growing on this tunicate's surface are haloed like tiny suns when viewed through the skein of film algae on my tank's front glass. 

 

IMG_2041.thumb.JPG.afb0277a57a462f18805de4dbe80a423.JPG

 

Caulerpa is arriving today, so expect more photos soon! Thanks for visiting!

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  • billygoat changed the title to Billy's Seagrass Experiment

There was an earlier suggestion of a rhino blenny. You should absolutely get a rhino blenny. Perfect for this tank. Kinda like a tiny, nonvenomous scorpionfish in personality. Or a waspfish, which is a tiny, venomous scorpionfish-like, though not dangerous. 

 

Tomato plants fruit best when scared. Once they get to a mature size, the best yield is had by withholding water once or twice, or even breaking off some leaves and small branches. If you put the fear of death into them (colloquially), they fruit more heavily, because the threat of death causes them to try harder to reproduce. I don't know if the same principle applies to seagrass, but if it does, you're gonna get loads of seagrass. 

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  • billygoat changed the title to Billy's Deep Sandbed Experiment

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