Startup cycle: ammonia not dropping, high nitrite&nitrate

[Michiel.a]

Hi everyone!

I am starting up my first saltwater tank and i'm cycling it for 14 days now.
I did a fishless cycle with dead rock (caribsea) and life sand(caribsea).
I'm adding daily Microbe lift nite out II and weekly Microbe lift special care.
8 days ago I also added 12% pure ammonia to 'feed' the bacteria, I dosed the ammonia over 3 days until I had 1,5ppm.
After 3 days is stopped adding the ammonia and started testing every day.
Now 8 days later i still measure 1.5ppm ammonia but my nitrite went up to 4ppm and my nitrate to 100ppm.
This confusses me a lot because first the ammonia should drop before the nitrite should increase right?
What should I do at this point, wait a bit and hope the ammonia will drop?
Looking forward to get some advise from some pros 🙂
(I use the Sallifert test kits for saltwater)

[SeaFurn]

Sounds like the cycle is progressing  which is the good news. As far as the ammonia still being the same level as it was, you could have possibly had more ammonia than you originally thought/tested. These are hobby grade test kits and most of the time you’re interpreting colors to represent measurements. It’s just not that precise sometimes. 
Give it a little more time...

[rough eye]

yes more time. i don't think i even started testing until after 14 days 🙂

[fenderchamp]

search for topics about false positives on cheap ammonia kits on google 

[Jakesaw]

On 4/10/2021 at 8:29 AM, SeaFurn said:

Sounds like the cycle is progressing  which is the good news. As far as the ammonia still being the same level as it was, you could have possibly had more ammonia than you originally thought/tested. These are hobby grade test kits and most of the time you’re interpreting colors to represent measurements. It’s just not that precise sometimes. 
Give it a little more time...

Especially if using API test kits.  I could never get an ammonia reading I felt comfortable with.  Red Sea ammonia test kit is easy to read where your'e at.

[banasophia]

Here’s a nice resource on fishless cycling:

https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling/

 

Once your tank is fully cycled you can do a large water change to remove the nitrate that has built up. 

[mcarroll]

On 4/10/2021 at 9:09 AM, Michiel.a said:

Hi everyone!

I am starting up my first saltwater tank and i'm cycling it for 14 days now.
I did a fishless cycle with dead rock (caribsea) and life sand(caribsea).
I'm adding daily Microbe lift nite out II and weekly Microbe lift special care.
8 days ago I also added 12% pure ammonia to 'feed' the bacteria, I dosed the ammonia over 3 days until I had 1,5ppm.
After 3 days is stopped adding the ammonia and started testing every day.
Now 8 days later i still measure 1.5ppm ammonia but my nitrite went up to 4ppm and my nitrate to 100ppm.
This confusses me a lot because first the ammonia should drop before the nitrite should increase right?
What should I do at this point, wait a bit and hope the ammonia will drop?
Looking forward to get some advise from some pros 🙂
(I use the Sallifert test kits for saltwater)

Very complicated, results far less certain than "advertised", and full of "busy work" vs the natural method if you ask me.*  In addition, overstocking is what causes an ammonia spike and is the main objection to using a fish (or whatever else) for cycling.  However, the fishless method does nothing to prevent overstocking, and overstocking still happens fairly often on fisshless cycled tanks.  

 

So fishless cycling is not only unnecessary, it's also not foolproof and causes new problems that don't happen at all under the natural method.

 

The only reason I can figure to dose ammonia is so you can add a bunch of fish all at once at the end of the process – rushing things. Adding a bunch of fish at once is NOT something you/we should be trying to do anyway – for many reasons, only some of which relate to ammonia.  

 

In effect, by mega-dosing ammonia, you are purposefully causing eutrophication.  You are founding the tank's ecology with a massively destabilizing spike of nutrients that, while possibly preventing an ammonia problem (overstocking may still happen), will definitely take the tank's ecology months to recover from, rendering the tank to a less stable state for all the higher organisms you will add.  (Fish disease is always worse under these circumstances, for example.)  

 

Remember the object of a reef is (microbial) diversity.  Diversity is the key to stability – in the short term AND the long term.  (That is why live rock matters.)  For a variety of reasons, eutrophication sends the system in the opposite direction of diversity.  

 

It's a bit nerdy, but check out "Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication" to get one aspect of how this works out.  (The Nature and Consequences of Indirect Effects in Ecological Communities is also a goodie for background on diversity of "competition" and stability.  Remember to click through to the source articles where they're available!)

 

Since you've already bought into the popular idea of "fishes cycling", you need to read up on details like toxicity of nitrite and nitrate to the bacteria you're trying to grow.  (If I recall correctly, 4ppm and 100ppm are either close to the safe limits or exceed them which can stall bacterial activity.)  

 

Are you sure the bacterial additives you're using are correct for the purpose of cycling?  Not all bacterial supplements are intended for that – they don't all contain nitrifying bacteria.

 

Having good test kits as others have mentioned will be a good idea too...almost mandatory.  A Seachem AmmoAlert badge is very recommended.  

 

The Dr Tim's site is about the best resource on the ammonia dosing method I've seen – and it's worth noting that even he says fishless isn't necessary.  Of course it's never been necessary, but he means less necessary than ever since nowadays you can drop a bottle (or more) of his product (or similar) and have a full population of ammonia-processing bacteria in the tank the same day that your ammonia source appears.

 

👍

 

* The natural method is simply to limit your bio-load to a safe level for the tank's current state, whatever that is.  Build the tank's bio-load slowly and progressively from the smallest organisms to the largest.  This takes 30-40 days and is documented in many better aquarium hobby books, such as Martin Moe's "Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder" that I recommend all the time.

[Clown79]

Your tank is cycling. Ammonia can still be presebt when nitrites are developing.

 

If the nitrites hit 5ppm or higher it can stall a cycle but otherwise, your level is still acceptable.

 

You might want to look at something like adding biospira instead of the other product which may not be providing the bacteria you need for cycling.

 

Some people have false positives with api. I have never had a false positive. 

 

Determining the colour can be hard for some. Always check the test tube against white in natural light.

[Michiel.a]

On 4/21/2021 at 10:21 PM, mcarroll said:

Very complicated, results far less certain than "advertised", and full of "busy work" vs the natural method if you ask me.*  In addition, overstocking is what causes an ammonia spike and is the main objection to using a fish (or whatever else) for cycling.  However, the fishless method does nothing to prevent overstocking, and overstocking still happens fairly often on fisshless cycled tanks.  

 

So fishless cycling is not only unnecessary, it's also not foolproof and causes new problems that don't happen at all under the natural method.

 

The only reason I can figure to dose ammonia is so you can add a bunch of fish all at once at the end of the process – rushing things. Adding a bunch of fish at once is NOT something you/we should be trying to do anyway – for many reasons, only some of which relate to ammonia.  

 

In effect, by mega-dosing ammonia, you are purposefully causing eutrophication.  You are founding the tank's ecology with a massively destabilizing spike of nutrients that, while possibly preventing an ammonia problem (overstocking may still happen), will definitely take the tank's ecology months to recover from, rendering the tank to a less stable state for all the higher organisms you will add.  (Fish disease is always worse under these circumstances, for example.)  

 

Remember the object of a reef is (microbial) diversity.  Diversity is the key to stability – in the short term AND the long term.  (That is why live rock matters.)  For a variety of reasons, eutrophication sends the system in the opposite direction of diversity.  

 

It's a bit nerdy, but check out "Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication" to get one aspect of how this works out.  (The Nature and Consequences of Indirect Effects in Ecological Communities is also a goodie for background on diversity of "competition" and stability.  Remember to click through to the source articles where they're available!)

 

Since you've already bought into the popular idea of "fishes cycling", you need to read up on details like toxicity of nitrite and nitrate to the bacteria you're trying to grow.  (If I recall correctly, 4ppm and 100ppm are either close to the safe limits or exceed them which can stall bacterial activity.)  

 

Are you sure the bacterial additives you're using are correct for the purpose of cycling?  Not all bacterial supplements are intended for that – they don't all contain nitrifying bacteria.

 

Having good test kits as others have mentioned will be a good idea too...almost mandatory.  A Seachem AmmoAlert badge is very recommended.  

 

The Dr Tim's site is about the best resource on the ammonia dosing method I've seen – and it's worth noting that even he says fishless isn't necessary.  Of course it's never been necessary, but he means less necessary than ever since nowadays you can drop a bottle (or more) of his product (or similar) and have a full population of ammonia-processing bacteria in the tank the same day that your ammonia source appears.

 

👍

 

* The natural method is simply to limit your bio-load to a safe level for the tank's current state, whatever that is.  Build the tank's bio-load slowly and progressively from the smallest organisms to the largest.  This takes 30-40 days and is documented in many better aquarium hobby books, such as Martin Moe's "Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder" that I recommend all the time.

Thank you for this info. I'll keep this in mind when starting the next tank 😉.

Before I started with this tank I did read so much on the internet about the ammonia dosing fishless cycles that I felt 'pushed' in doing the same.

I wanted to do the dr Tim method and use his products but i couldn't find them in Belgium so i went with Microbe-lift nite out and special blend (recommended by lfs) and added pure ammonia from a DIY store.

But it was so confusing cause everyone has a different way or opinion in doing the fishless cycle on the internet that I did not know what to do anymore...

 

[Michiel.a]

So an update: the ammonia went away after a few days and the nitrite droped to zero 3 days ago. Nitrates are high now but i'm doing water changes to get it also to an acceptable amount.

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, Michiel.a said:

So an update: the ammonia went away after a few days and the nitrite droped to zero 3 days ago. Nitrates are high now but i'm doing water changes to get it also to an acceptable amount.

You can do 1 large waterchange of 50 - 80% to drop the nitrates. Its common practice after cycling to do 1 large waterchange.