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Dino counter offensive


Cdav929

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Hello I’m currently starting to try and get rid of dinoflagellates that showed up in my tank last weekend. I have a evo 13.5 that’s two months old that was started with aquacultured live rock / sand. 
I’ve been running chemipure elite and Purigen with weekly 30% water changes since the beginning and since last month my nitrates look to be at 0 according to API test (but hard to tell between 0-5 with that kit). So I’m guessing with only one feeding a day and just two fish - my nutrient levels in the tank were not sufficient to support the bacteria that keeps the Dino at bay and the Dino was able to out compete them. 
so plan going forward:

 

1. Swap out chemipure elite for regular carbon to get rid of the phosphate removing element
2. Up feedings to twice a day to boost nitrate/phosphate level

3. Stop water changes until I see improvement 

4. Reduce lighting schedule from 8hrs/day full intensity to 5 hrs/day 
     — lots of corals so I don’t want to do a blackout 
5. Perform daily rock blasting with baster and toothbrush scrub to get dinos into water column

6. While they are in the water column dose with hydrogen peroxide 
7. A few hours later change out filter floss as it hopefully caught some dinos from rock scrub

8. Use Dr. Tim’s refresh and waste away to add bacteria that will outcompete dinos

9. Install protein skimmer to complete the refresh/waste away steps (and help with oxygenation)
         —- this one was a tough sell for me because the nature of protein skimmers is to reduce nutrients  10. Find other ways to increase biodiversity like adding more pods, phytoplankton 

11. Possibly dose liquid nitrate and/or phosphate if I can’t get levels up. Better checkers coming in mail tomorrow.

11. If all above fails use the nuclear option of DinoX
 

 

if anyone else has something that they have tried and worked on nano tanks I’d love to hear about it. It’s only been visible for a few days but already it’s growing on zoas and keeping them fro opening. I haven’t ID’d the exact type of Dino as I figured all the steps above would hopefully take care of any of them. They are snotty and bubbly so not anything else like cyano.
 

also - does anyone know if there would be a problem dosing the dr.Tim’s refresh/waste away and hydrogen peroxide at the same time?

 

thanks for any input

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9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

does anyone know if there would be a problem dosing the dr.Tim’s refresh/waste away and hydrogen peroxide at the same time?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's alright.  Peroxide is another "tough sell" as it might also work against increasing biodiversity.  It might be an easier decision if the current biodiversity is already low.  However, I would try to beef up the diversity afterwards (as you indicated).

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

Install protein skimmer to complete the refresh/waste away steps (and help with oxygenation)

Good, I'd consider a protein skimmer a requirement for that dosing duo.

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

lots of corals so I don’t want to do a blackout 

Corals typically withstand a 3 day total blackout relatively well.  It's actually a good way to knock back dinos prior to using other treatment methods.

 

All these options might be viable methods for knocking back dinos.  However, the real key will be to encourage competition (lke bacteria, pods, and even algae).  I feel that knocking back the dinos is fine, but not at the expense of the existing biodiversity.  Some methods will undoubtedly have a negative impact.

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

Possibly dose liquid nitrate and/or phosphate if I can’t get levels up.

The idea of increasing inorganic nutrients, is to support life that might not fair as well in nutrient poor conditions.  Increased feeding is good, as long as it isn't just rotting on your substrate.  I think most people find that dosing nutrients becomes necessary when fighting dinos (just due to the huge uptake of nutrients going on).

 

When treating dinos, I believe that people target a phosphate level of at least 0.10 ppm, while not letting nitrate bottom out.  Nitrate should be detectable (at least 1 ppm; but I generally see recommendations between 2 and 5 ppm, and sometimes as high as 10 ppm).

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

Find other ways to increase biodiversity like adding more pods, phytoplankton

Adding live rock, like from KP Aquatics, seems to be another good way to increase biodiversity (including pods and new strains of bacteria).  However, this rock still must be cured before adding it to your tank, as you don't want to spike ammonia.

 

Adding bottled bacteria cultures can sometimes prove helpful too.  Products like Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacter7 are often dosed to help build up bacterial competition.

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

They are snotty and bubbly so not anything else like cyano.

I assume that you've positively identified the invader as dinoflagellates (either through a microscope or via the shake test).  Otherwise, they can sometimes be misidentified, and treatment protocols between dinos and cyano can vary greatly.  Also, certain strains of dinos can be effectively treated with a strong UV sterilizer; however, this isn't the case with all strains (so proper identification can be helpful).

 

Full disclosure: Keep in mind that all of this information is based on my reading of other people's posts, and not my own personal experience.  Good luck!

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9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

with only one feeding a day and just two fish - my nutrient levels in the tank were not sufficient to support the bacteria that keeps the Dino at bay and the Dino was able to out compete them. 

There are no bacteria keeping them in check.  It's just the lack of nutrients (ie starvation) that provokes them.  👍  

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

1. Swap out chemipure elite for regular carbon to get rid of the phosphate removing element

Yes.

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

2. Up feedings to twice a day to boost nitrate/phosphate level

3. Stop water changes until I see improvement 

If possible, direct dosing of liquid phosphates (and nitrates, if needed) is a better way to go....more precise and more immediate.  You can dose your water change water up to proper levels too so they don't have a negative effect.

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

4. Reduce lighting schedule from 8hrs/day full intensity to 5 hrs/day 
     — lots of corals so I don’t want to do a blackout 

I wouldn't mess with lighting, IMO.  Keep you corals happy – trust them that things are OK.

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

5. Perform daily rock blasting with baster and toothbrush scrub to get dinos into water column

6. While they are in the water column dose with hydrogen peroxide 
7. A few hours later change out filter floss as it hopefully caught some dinos from rock scrub

No.  No.  And, no.

 

Scrubbing down the rocks like that doesn't accomplish anything other than resetting the progress of your rock.

 

Peroxide isn't an answer.

 

Filter floss isn't going to catch anything except big hunks of dino snot, which isn't much.  You'd need something like 1-20µ to filter out dino's.

 

If you can tell me, where did you read about this mini-process?

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

8. Use Dr. Tim’s refresh and waste away to add bacteria that will outcompete dinos

No.  IMO this reinforces the bloom.  Dino's literally eat bacteria – that is what facilitates the massive increase in dino cell count (aka the bloom) while there appears to your test kits to be no nutrients in the system.

 

Check out Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether? and try to read everything on the main page (links included) before you proceed.  Ask questions of course.

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

9. Install protein skimmer to complete the refresh/waste away steps (and help with oxygenation)
         —- this one was a tough sell for me because the nature of protein skimmers is to reduce nutrients

Skimmers are great at aeration.  But I don't actually know where the idea came from that they are good at removing nutrients.  

 

They literally cannot remove dissolved nitrates or phosphates.  

 

The only studies I'm aware of that looked at skimmate production concluded that skimmers could, at best, remove around 30-40% of the "stuff" that they do act upon.  

 

They're not that great at nutrient removal....which is actually fine for us.

 

I *do* recommend a skimmer, but don't expect it to make a huge difference in the current context.

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

10. Find other ways to increase biodiversity like adding more pods, phytoplankton 

Yes.  As seabass mentioned, swapping some (or all) of your rock for some live rock would be a big help.  Anything else will help too (eg pods, photo, et al), but it takes a lot of little additions to make up what live rock will bring in one shot.

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

11. Possibly dose liquid nitrate and/or phosphate if I can’t get levels up. Better checkers coming in mail tomorrow.

Yes.  But start with this.  If you do, target a minimum of 0.10 ppm for PO4.  >5-10 ppm is a good target for nitrates.

 

The first time you dose it's very possible that it will all be used up within minutes.  Re-test the tank 30-60 minutes after dosing.  Calculate a proper dose to get levels back to the targets above.  Re-test again in 30-60 minutes to make sure there is a residual of 0.10 ppm in the water.  (No many folks have had to re-dose more than once, but it's possible.)

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

11. If all above fails use the nuclear option of DinoX

I've never actually heard of a case where it worked, so I'd say make sure you take all the steps before arriving at a this point.

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

I haven’t ID’d the exact type of Dino

This is actually Step #0 – before you actually DO anything.  

 

You should at least confirm that they are dino's and not something else.  But if you can figure out what type of dino they are, then it can actually help the speed (and cost) of your tank's recovery.

 

You'll need a microscope (or access to one).  Thankfully even a $12 toy microscope will do the trick...nothing fancy or expensive required.  Shoot some pics and a movie through it on your cell phone.  Post them here (and the thread I linked) and see what you have.

 

(Pretty sure there are details in the thread.)

 

9 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

does anyone know if there would be a problem dosing the dr.Tim’s refresh/waste away and hydrogen peroxide at the same time?

Peroxide is a type of antiseptic and disinfectant.   😉

 

Focus on the basics outlined in that thread I linked earlier.  First, that means ID.  Second, (assuming a positive ID of some kind) it means dosing nutrients.  

 

Could be more to suggest, but we need more answers first.

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Thanks for the input @mcarroll and @seabass.
ill stop the basting and brushing, and hold off on the peroxide and dinox.

bottles of nitrate and phosphate should be in tomorrow so I’ll start dosing then. I’d already started a regimen of  “Refresh” so I’ll complete that as it seems to be just additional bacteria only which if anything will just add to the biodiversity.

then I guess I should just slowly see the dinos recede as nutrients go up.?

That list i put together was my own thoughts after watching hours of you tube and tons of reading on the forums. My thought was since I didn’t know which strain I had I was going to try multiple strategies at once to nip it in the bud, but sounds like that might not be the best option now.  I’ll look into acquiring a microscope.
 

some context

just returning to the hobby after a 15 year break. Never had a nano before and never experienced a Dino outbreak like this. 
 

tank was stood up on 1 Jan ( evo 13.5 gal)

used 15lbs of KPaquatics live rock shipped overnight in water. Rock still has lots of live sponges two months in.

1.75” live sand bed (aragalive crushed coral)

Pulled out stock media, return pump and light

installed inTank media basket In chamber 1 with filter floss, chemipure elite, purigen, and some marinepure gems because I had some.

2nd chamber just has heater and mame protein skimmer (glass with air stone) that was added this week same day I discovered dinos.

3rd chamber has upgraded sicce silent .5 return pump rated at 185gph and tunze nano ato.

light is single AI prime. 
additional flow generated by mp10 set at reefcrest most of the time at 30% power.

 

been dosing seachem reef fusion two part to maintain cal and alk. (1ml 3x per week) with testing once per week said elements


should I stop this dosing - are there trace elements in those that dinos eat?

weekly 30% water changes


stocking:

two small clownfish

1 cleaner shrimp
4 hermit crabs 

currently 5 Astria/trochus snails 

2 nassarius snails

lots of small brittle stars in the rockwork

 

Corals:

8 different zoa/paly colonies

some clove polyps

two frags of different cyphastrea 

1 encrusting montipora

1 plating montipora

2 Ricordia mushrooms

2 rhodactis mushrooms 

1 dico mushroom

3 single head frags of different blastos

1 large head of Duncan coral

2 small acan heads

 

 

hitchhikers so far:

2 large leapard polyclad flatworms that ate most of my snails,- since caught.

2 small un identified crabs that are still in there. 
1 large bobbit worm - caught

1 decent sized pistol shrimp that’s still in the tank. - visually I’d by molt and sounds

 

sorry pictures aren’t better - you can see close up though how unhappy the zoas are.37125CC9-6D93-4D86-BEB4-949F264EB806.thumb.jpeg.ade4bd3c212bcd940aed145f906f8612.jpeg9A8F5D0D-FFB1-498C-8D1D-3954821DD110.thumb.jpeg.c229ee39d47f7b7ce92de6c0644d47a7.jpeg

BA8D02ED-C78F-4A4E-8F89-9473D811EE4F.jpeg

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8 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

used 15lbs of KPaquatics live rock shipped overnight in water.

Wow, dinos are usually the result of lack of competition, typically due to using dry rock.  Have you done/dosed anything that might have depleted the micro-fauna?  Actually, your post indicates a fairly biodiverse livestock list. This information makes me question the identification a bit more.

 

Does the sand bed and other surfaces get covered, or is it primarily just the rocks?  Does it almost seem to go away at night, and then resurface as the light cycle progresses?  To me, the pics don't look like most dino blooms.  Also, we often observe snails dying from the dino toxins.

 

Your cellphone pics are really blue.  Can you get a few pictures with just white lights, or even during the day with your tank lights off?

 

8 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

been dosing seachem reef fusion two part to maintain cal and alk. (1ml 3x per week) with testing once per week said elements.  should I stop this dosing - are there trace elements in those that dinos eat?

I don't see that dosing two part solution should be a problem.

 

8 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

weekly 30% water changes

That seems excessive.

 

8 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

after watching hours of you tube and tons of reading on the forums

Sounds like you dived back into the hobby big time.  Good for you.  As no doubt you've seen, there is a lot of conflicting information online (even misinformation).  And it's not uncommon for people to misidentify dinos.  I'm not saying that you have done this; but it might be a possibility.

 

Bubbles can get trapped under cyano, or even bacterial films which might give the appearance of dinos.  Until you get your microscope, you should at least perform a shake test:

  • Put some of the "snot" in a covered container and shake it up thoroughly.
  • Strain the water through a paper towel, into another container (exposed to your tank lighting).
  • If after a couple of hours, the "snot" groups together, you have dinos.

 

8 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

Thanks for the input @mcarroll and @seabass.

You're welcome.  Actually mcarroll has done a lot more work on this subject than I have.  I'd give the nod to him on any conflicting information that we might provide.

 

8 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

bottles of nitrate and phosphate should be in tomorrow so I’ll start dosing then.

Keep in mind, that if your dinos test comes out negative, dosing nutrients probably isn't necessary.  Usually feeding and reduced water changes are enough to raise nutrient levels to more healthy levels (barring algae, cyano, and/or dino blooms).

 

Also, my normal nutrient level recommendations are lower than those used for treating dinos.  I'd normally target phosphate somewhere between 0.03 and 0.05 ppm (with phosphate levels up to 0.10 ppm being acceptable).  Nitrate levels of ten times your tank's phosphate level are fairly typical; although I don't feel that a strict 10:1 ratio of nitrate to phosphate is required.

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As others have said increased feeding and less water changes should do it - worked for me anyway... And then I ended up getting some nasty GHA, but that's all part of the new tank fun 🤣

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11 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

Pulled out stock media, return pump and light

installed inTank media basket In chamber 1 with filter floss, chemipure elite, purigen, and some marinepure gems because I had some.

Doomed.  😉

 

If you had stopped with pulling out the stock media, you probably would have been OK.

 

11 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

1 cleaner shrimp
4 hermit crabs 

currently 5 Astria/trochus snails 

2 nassarius snails

lots of small brittle stars in the rockwork

Probably heavy on the scavengers....considering that you appear to have a resident population of micro-brittles, I would consider removing all but one of the mobile scavengers on your list....I'd probably stick with a Nassarius if it was me, but a single hermit, if it's very small, shouldn't hurt much of anything.

 

5 astreas/trochus (do you have both?  Trochus are striped.  Astrea area white.) might be sufficient.  If you feel the need to add more CUC, just make sure they are herbivores like these.

 

13 hours ago, Cdav929 said:

weekly 30% water changes

I agree that this is excessive.  

 

It's like hitting your zero phosphate level with a hammer every time you do it.*

giphy.gif

 

After using dry rock, excess filtration (all methods) seems like the #2 main contributor to dino blooms.

 

For the time being, if you need to do water changes, dose the new water with appropriate amounts of PO4 and NO3 so there's no negative effect on the tank's levels.  

 

In the long run, limit water changes if nutrient levels are already "low".  You can probably be less aggressive with them in general too....30% weekly isn't necessarily extreme, but it's a lot by most standards.

 

*Not the best metaphor but maybe gets the idea across...and the GIF made me laugh.  I - HATE - YOU - PHOS - PHATES - I - HATE - YOU - PHOS - PHATES - I - HATE - YOU - PHOSPHATES   😜  I like the guy hammering in the background too....he's more on the fence about nutrients, like maybe they're "okay".  Good hammer-harmony.  

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I'd say no to peroxide- its know to increase dino's and from experience i can tell you - thats true.

 

Tim's waste away, i wouldn't suggest that either.

 

Decinitely don't scrub the rocks or blast them. Dino's love flow and spread rapidly with this method.

You need to gently suck them out with the water run through a filter sock and floss and water returned to the tank(no new salt water)

 

 

Stick with natural methods. You need to get your nutrients up much higher than recommended levels particularly phos.

 

Seed your tank with pods, tisbe and rotifers and dose good quality phyto every other day.

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