Back into the hobby, full bore! Plumbing question for sump

[Simulated Fish]

Setting up a new 12g loooong tank. This is my dream nano and now that we are in a new house and staying for 10+ years I am getting everything set up!

 

I drilled the overflow today and no cracks! Very little edge chipping so that was a big win 😊 still need to drill for the returns though.

 

I plan on running one pump to two returns. Due to sump size I don't want to run two pumps. Does any one see a issue with this plan on my returns?

 

Pump: 24v dc pump 1000gph

Overflow: Low profile Fiji 400

Overflow /return pipe: 3/4 in pvc

Return pipe: 1/2 in pvc

 

[Sharbuckle]

I see no issues with two returns. Will allow for added flow without the need for Powerheads! I say go for it. 

[Simulated Fish]

1 minute ago, Sharbuckle said:

I see no issues with two returns. Will allow for added flow without the need for Powerheads! I say go for it. 

Exactly, less  clutter in the tank!

[Murphs_Reef]

Get random generators for the returns and you should be good. But you might find that the 1000gph cut in half isn't pushing fast enough to get away with out a powerhead.

[mcarroll]

On 2/17/2021 at 10:56 PM, Simulated Fish said:

Does any one see a issue with this plan on my returns?

Well...

 

Real Estate

No more drilling in such a tiny tank....arguably looks nice, but also chews up real estate that you have fairly little of in a tank so small.  Go over the top with your return or switch to one of those IN/OUT overflows that Two Little Fishies markets, if possible.

 

Rethink 100% of your flow plan...maybe even consider a change of direction.

 

Return + Powerheads

12 gallons needs something like (12 x 2 = ) 24GPH up to (12 x 4 = ) 48 GPH to operate the gear in the sump....heater, skimmer, whatever.

 

Obviously you need a much smaller pump to deliver only 50 GPH.  

 

I would give this some consideration as it's the most efficient return setup possible.  

 

The *only* downside is that you have to use powerheaeds for flow in the display.....which isn't a real downside since powerheads offer superior flow options.  

 

A $40 Sicce 0.5 pump would get the return job done admirably.  

 

Pick your favorite powerhead(s) for added circulation.

 

Just Return Flow

Even if you think you want to use the return for circulation in the tank (doing so is a sacrifice vs the more capable powerhead) you will only need something like (12 x 50 = ) 600 GPH.

 

To get 600 GPH to the tank, you'll need to upgrade your return plumbing and drain plumbing.

 

1/2" plumbing will cause +8 additional feet of head pressure from friction.  1" plumbing will allow a pump of this class to operate efficiently.  This will take a Sicce 3.0 or 3.5 pump to do the job....$100-$150.

 

*** You will want a minimum of a 1" drain to handle that much flow silently. 

[Simulated Fish]

Thanks for the detailed feedback!

 

As for the in/out used it on my last tank and hated it. Insanely loud and nothing would quite it!

 

For circulation I debated using a power head, but when it comes down to it I do not want them in this display. I would much rather have a the returns do this work and keep wire dangle and multiple failure points to a minimum.

 

What source are you getting the turn over numbers from? Wouldn't mind playing around with them.

 

As for the pump it is a dc pump that I planned on running at minimum for noise reduction, hints the over kill. Sicce makes great pumps for sure used 3 in my jbj 45 for years!

 

Going up to 1 in in and 3/4 out has been my man though and concern I know that is the most common due to availability and normal on larger tanks, that what I had on my 70g.

[mcarroll]

50 for turnover was a totally arbitrary number I decided on based on forum posts I've read over the years.  It's sort of an average and it allows for easy math.

 

There is no correct number.  

 

GPH requirements are strongly based on the particular pumps used, how they are placed, and how the tank is laid out – so feel free to play with it.  

 

My best example of how GPH can mean different things is when I was trying to upgrade my old 50 Breeder's flow.  I had 2200 GPH with two Tunze 6045 nanostreams on the tank already.  My SPS had filled in the tank and flow was getting stagnant, so I was looking to upgrade.  I was able to acquire a pair of mp40's...which together should have been something like 5000-6000 GPH.  In my brain of the time, going from 2200 up to 6000 should be a massive upgrade.  I tried the mp40's for a few days and moved them to different locations to see if there was a "special location" where they'd do their thing...but they never seemed much if any better than the tiny little pumps they replaced.  I ended up shelving the mp40's and ultimately I added a third 6045 (so about 3300 GPH total) and the tank was great like that.  A third 6045 actually was a huge upgrade in flow.

 

Honestly you could probably do better for your case by researching old guidelines for closed loop flow systems to see the target GPH they were trying for.  Scale that advice down to your situation.  They would have been talking plumbing GPH, which potentially has a better definition than powerhead GPH.  (We can still help with computations.)

 

BTW, since you mentioned about the looks of a pump, I just found out the other night that Tunze's 6020 and 6040 will fit in their smallest Tunze Rock.  (As do all of their nanostream pumps apparently.)

+

 

So for about $100 total you have a neatly camouflaged pump.  The cord can also be neatly stashed in a corner and even buried if necessary.  (Upgrade to the 6040  if you want controllability....down to 1.5 watts!!)

 

Just another thought.  😉

[fishez4alivin]

By the looks of it you have a Fijicube 400 gph overflow?  If that is the size, then you should just do one return.  If you split the return, instead of having twice the flow, each return will have to split the gph.  Those little overflows can't handle much more than 400 gph, I have one and have my Sicce SDC6 at 10%.  I just noticed the sump you have, in order to accommodate  most skimmers, 7-8", and allow the return section enough water to not shoot air bubbles into the display, you will want to at most have 3-400 gph, or you will have air bubbles and if you shut off the pump, and you don't use a check valve on the return, the dump back will overflow the sump.  A Sicce 1.5 would be a starting point.  You can get a DC pump that you can dial back as well.  If I were you I'd get a Sicce 1.5 and a wye check valve, and drill one hole.

[Simulated Fish]

On 2/22/2021 at 12:04 PM, fishez4alivin said:

By the looks of it you have a Fijicube 400 gph overflow?  If that is the size, then you should just do one return.  If you split the return, instead of having twice the flow, each return will have to split the gph.  Those little overflows can't handle much more than 400 gph, I have one and have my Sicce SDC6 at 10%.  I just noticed the sump you have, in order to accommodate  most skimmers, 7-8", and allow the return section enough water to not shoot air bubbles into the display, you will want to at most have 3-400 gph, or you will have air bubbles and if you shut off the pump, and you don't use a check valve on the return, the dump back will overflow the sump.  A Sicce 1.5 would be a starting point.  You can get a DC pump that you can dial back as well.  If I were you I'd get a Sicce 1.5 and a wye check valve, and drill one hole.

 

Correct it is the 400, that was my main worry if the overflow can handle 2 returns. i am targeting low flow for this tank, softies and lps. never been a fan of sticks lol. I need that gentle movement of a hammer, the sway of gsp, and the bounce of nems 😄 

 

[Simulated Fish]

On 2/22/2021 at 9:57 AM, mcarroll said:

50 for turnover was a totally arbitrary number I decided on based on forum posts I've read over the years.  It's sort of an average and it allows for easy math.

 

There is no correct number.  

 

GPH requirements are strongly based on the particular pumps used, how they are placed, and how the tank is laid out – so feel free to play with it.  

 

 

Seems your a high flow kind of reefer, I much prefer low easy flow and motion. I have to keep the sand clean more but if is a fair trade-off by me!

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, Simulated Fish said:

 

Seems your a high flow kind of reefer, I much prefer low easy flow and motion. I have to keep the sand clean more but if is a fair trade-off by me!

Like I said, GPH is a loose term in the context of tank turnover.  50 is just a number to give form to the calculation.  (Also a number that plenty of tanks have actually used.)

 

Not only that, but you generally want no more than 50% of your drain's rated flow rate so that it remains silent in operation.

 

This limitation isn't very compatible with doing all of the tank's flow through your sump.  In fact this is why the closed loop was invented....which in turn is why the powerhead was invented.  Both older flow modes are much less flexible and more expensive to deploy than powerheads.

 

So anyway, if your drain is only rated for 400 GPH, then you'll want around 200 GPH for your ideal flow rate.

 

That would only be about 16X turnover.  I'm pretty sure you'll end up needing more flow, whether it's from a powerhead another filter unit or whatever.

 

More than 16X and you'll be likely to hear various kinds of drain noise...sucking and gurgling sounds.

 

 

Assuming your pumping height would be about 1 meter, it looks like a 1.0 would almost do it...about 125 GPH or so.  You can get away with much smaller plumbing this way too....probably what you originally spec'd would be fine for this.

 

A 1.5 would be more than adequate...you may have to throttle it down (with the built in restrictor) to make the drain silent depending on your actual setup.   Up-sizing the drain and return plumbing would be a good idea as suggested before.

 

Splitting the return flow into two doesn't make more flow, BTW, it just divides the total flow roughly in half.  (A little less than half since the Tee fitting will cause a little extra friction.)

[Simulated Fish]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

Like I said, GPH is a loose term in the context of tank turnover.  50 is just a number to give form to the calculation.  (Also a number that plenty of tanks have actually used.)

 

Not only that, but you generally want no more than 50% of your drain's rated flow rate so that it remains silent in operation.

 

This limitation isn't very compatible with doing all of the tank's flow through your sump.  In fact this is why the closed loop was invented....which in turn is why the powerhead was invented.  Both older flow modes are much less flexible and more expensive to deploy than powerheads.

 

So anyway, if your drain is only rated for 400 GPH, then you'll want around 200 GPH for your ideal flow rate.

 

That would only be about 16X turnover.  I'm pretty sure you'll end up needing more flow, whether it's from a powerhead another filter unit or whatever.

 

More than 16X and you'll be likely to hear various kinds of drain noise...sucking and gurgling sounds.

 

 

Assuming your pumping height would be about 1 meter, it looks like a 1.0 would almost do it...about 125 GPH or so.  You can get away with much smaller plumbing this way too....probably what you originally spec'd would be fine for this.

 

A 1.5 would be more than adequate...you may have to throttle it down (with the built in restrictor) to make the drain silent depending on your actual setup.   Up-sizing the drain and return plumbing would be a good idea as suggested before.

 

Splitting the return flow into two doesn't make more flow, BTW, it just divides the total flow roughly in half.  (A little less than half since the Tee fitting will cause a little extra friction.)

 

 

hmmm what is your thought on running two pumps over one?

[mcarroll]

25 minutes ago, Simulated Fish said:

hmmm what is your thought on running two pumps over one?

Two return pumps into one return plumbing line?  For redundancy, or for what purpose?

 

For redundancy it's more complicated than it seems to have two pumps online in parallel.  IMO for this purpose, just have a spare pump on standby/ready to be installed.

[Simulated Fish]

1 minute ago, mcarroll said:

Two return pumps into one return plumbing line?  For redundancy, or for what purpose?

 

For redundancy it's more complicated than it seems to have two pumps online in parallel.  IMO for this purpose, just have a spare pump on standby/ready to be installed.

oh no for the dual return option if I go that way. the main reason i am stuck on it is due to symmetry of the plumbing

  

 stares at hole saw that arrived last week 

[mcarroll]

I think you'll regret drilling in the returns permanently....IMO keep them over the rim so you have options going forward.

 

Can you just design the return system as two equal halves so the return system is like a big "Y" with two even branches at the top and the pump at the bottom?

 

It's also possible to install a ball valve in a shorter branch to even out flow if the two branches can't be installed in an even fashion.

 

Using an oversized pipe from the pump to the Tee can also help to assure both branches run more evenly.