Macroalgae Ecosystem?

[Broseff]

5 hours ago, Subsea said:

Consider using Caulerpa Prolifera and Bortacladia as two colorful ornamental macros in your 3G system.  Prolifera reminds me of Corkscrew Vallnisnaria.

 

I live in California, so technically I can't get Caulerpa. It also is a little fast growing, which might be challenging to take care of without a filter. 

 

Bortacladia is pretty cool, I just need to find some. 

[Broseff]

6 hours ago, Tamberav said:

I find algae will grow will debris settles on the rock if its not getting enough flow, clogging pores and what not.

 

Paul B tank is 50 years old now and he removes debris, at least sometimes. He has that reverse under gravel filter which pushes it out of the sand and into the sump, and uses a diatom filter now and again to polish/remove crap in the sand and all his rocks are elevated. He states he doesn't have old tank syndrome because of these methods. I do think 50 years is definitely proof of something. 

 

Debris is probably less of an issue in the sump simply because it is not clogging up the rock or sand but I still vacuum it out a few times a year. 

 

No doubt that that's a thing that works, but isn't there a chance of detritus getting under the under gravel filter?

[king aiptasia]

2 hours ago, Broseff said:

I live in California, so technically I can't get Caulerpa. It also is a little fast growing, which might be challenging to take care of without a filter. 

 

Bortacladia is pretty cool, I just need to find some. 

Sure you can ;) you can even get it free

[Broseff]

3 minutes ago, king aiptasia said:

Sure you can 😉 you can even get it free

Well yes, but legally no. 

 

When I had a reef tank I had Prolifera, Mexicana, and Paspaloides. I personally really like Mexicana and Paspaloides because of their feathery look. 

 

But my concern is in a low maintance tank, they add unnecessary maintance and concern. I'd have to do a lot dosing and trimming to keep caulerpa from going sexual. Paspaloides might be fine because it doesn't seem to grow too much (It only ever had 4 stems at a time for me, and I've heard the same for others), but the faster a plant (in this case algae) grows the faster it can die as well. 

 

Dictyota might be a nice addition. 

 

Maybe branching (or even plating) corralline. Not encrusting though, it looks nice but I hated that stuff in my last tank. 

[Broseff]

Alright so the tank is up and running. 

 

It's a 3 gallon cube with:

• 2-3 pounds of live rock - the scape looked really cool without the plants. I might re-do it later. 
• 2-3 pounds of live sand - from a smaller set up and from caribsea.
• It has about 2 gallons of water now (in case I need to rescape or something), it'll probably hold 2 1/2 max.
• Gracilaria Hayi
• Red Ogo
• Haliptilon sp? It's growing roots, does it need to be planted?
• Amphipods? I know there's one or two adults. I'll be adding more if they don't reproduce, and when the tank matures a little more.
• Asterina starfish - There was one, but I haven't seen it lately.
• I'm using some no-name full spectrum led light - it worked great for my planted aquarium. I'll be changing it out with something that's dimmable. 

I don't super like that the rocks are white, but I hate scraping coralline off the sides of tanks and the rocks will probably be obstructed by macros eventually.

 

I hope to add:

• Macros (depending on their needs/growth): 
  • Branching/Plating Coralline - assuming it doesn't grow on the sides of the tank.
  • Dictyota - if I can find any.
  • Green Macros: Shaving Brush, Codium, Halimeda. - It depends on what looks good.
  • Something blue? Hypnea?
• A dwarf blue hermit - I just think they're cute.
• Something to graze nuissance algae, probably snails. A chiton? Maybe the asterina starfish will just reproduce and solve this problem. 
• Detrivores? - bristle worms, maybe micro brittle starfish.

And of course I've got/ordered everything that I may need to dose. I just need to pick up some testing kits and set up a log to keep data with. 

[Tamberav]

2 hours ago, Broseff said:

No doubt that that's a thing that works, but isn't there a chance of detritus getting under the under gravel filter?

 

I think the idea is it get pushed into the sand bed... and some of it pushed out into the filter and once a year he cleans the sand bed. The UGF is supposed to oxygenate the sand bed and such. I assume some gets there but some also gets flushed out? Lots of pods and worms I would think living in that space. He has a book: https://www.amazon.com/Avant-Garde-Marine-Aquarist-Paul-Baldassano/dp/0692547576 which was a fun read. 

[Tamberav]

I have some Dictyota probably... I consider it a pest as it grows crazy fast all over so I remove it whenever I can. I suppose its not as invasive in a macro tank. 

[Subsea]

On 2/20/2021 at 9:01 PM, Broseff said:

Alright so the tank is up and running. 

 

It's a 3 gallon cube with:

• 2-3 pounds of live rock - the scape looked really cool without the plants. I might re-do it later. 
• 2-3 pounds of live sand - from a smaller set up and from caribsea.
• It has about 2 gallons of water now (in case I need to rescape or something), it'll probably hold 2 1/2 max.
• Gracilaria Hayi
• Red Ogo
• Haliptilon sp? It's growing roots, does it need to be planted?
• Amphipods? I know there's one or two adults. I'll be adding more if they don't reproduce, and when the tank matures a little more.
• Asterina starfish - There was one, but I haven't seen it lately.
• I'm using some no-name full spectrum led light - it worked great for my planted aquarium. I'll be changing it out with something that's dimmable. 

I don't super like that the rocks are white, but I hate scraping coralline off the sides of tanks and the rocks will probably be obstructed by macros eventually.

 

I hope to add:

• Macros (depending on their needs/growth): 
  • Branching/Plating Coralline - assuming it doesn't grow on the sides of the tank.
  • Dictyota - if I can find any.
  • Green Macros: Shaving Brush, Codium, Halimeda. - It depends on what looks good.
  • Something blue? Hypnea?
• A dwarf blue hermit - I just think they're cute.
• Something to graze nuissance algae, probably snails. A chiton? Maybe the asterina starfish will just reproduce and solve this problem. 
• Detrivores? - bristle worms, maybe micro brittle starfish.

And of course I've got/ordered everything that I may need to dose. I just need to pick up some testing kits and set up a log to keep data with. 

Asterina Starfish can and in sufficient numbers will graze on biofilms on macro surfaces, once macro flesh is exposed, it is attacked  by pathegans/viruses.  In the case of Bortacladia, you could see the iridescent orange as the death signal of red macros.  In the 120G tank they are invasive to the point of eating through Caulerpa Prolifera.  In my 75G tank I control Asterina Starfish by manual removal but Hippo Tang prevents all ultility & ornamental except for this one species of Red Gracilaria from Gulf of Mexico.  I think it is G. Cervicornis.  
 

I just did cycle a temporary 30G macro lagoon with mollies as the only fish.  It has Bortacladia, Caulerpa Prolifera, and Caulerpa Mexicana.

[Subsea]

@Broseff

 

Bortacladia is collected in 40’-120’.   When I get it from the divers, it is a dark burgundy.  If subjected to intense light it will photo shock, loose its flotation balls and go sexual.   For your pico tank, stay with low light conditions.  Even fast growing Caulerpa can be slowed down but they will still require more maintenance than Bortacladia.  I have adjusted Bortacladia to increasing light intensity which a color shift from burgundy to fire engine red to orange.  It is not attractive under intense light.  

As a generalization, macro goes sexual when growing fast and then is deprived of required nutrients.  Even slow growing Bortacladia will go sexual.  It happened in a 55G monoculture grow out tank that I pushed too hard with more light.  Two years later, while using as a coral frag tank, I had Red Grapes everywhere.

PaulB influenced me to convert my Jaubert Plenum of 20yrs into a reverse flow undergravel filter five years ago.  There was much gunk under filter plates as well as numerous squiggly things.  I consider this MULM to feed a community of micro fauna & fana that constitute the “microbial loop” which moves carbon up the food chain.

[Broseff]

On 2/23/2021 at 5:47 AM, Subsea said:

Asterina Starfish can and in sufficient numbers will graze on biofilms on macro surfaces, once macro flesh is exposed, it is attacked  by pathegans/viruses.  In the case of Bortacladia, you could see the iridescent orange as the death signal of red macros.  

I've not had this experience in the past. Most of my asterina in my reef tank grazed on rocks and the glass. I didn't have any macro algae die except for branching coralline, which was probably because of the asterina, but I don't have any of that in my current tank. 

[Broseff]

On 2/20/2021 at 8:43 PM, Tamberav said:

 

I think the idea is it get pushed into the sand bed... and some of it pushed out into the filter and once a year he cleans the sand bed. The UGF is supposed to oxygenate the sand bed and such. I assume some gets there but some also gets flushed out? Lots of pods and worms I would think living in that space. He has a book: https://www.amazon.com/Avant-Garde-Marine-Aquarist-Paul-Baldassano/dp/0692547576 which was a fun read. 

I'll have to check it out. Although I don't really wanna run an UGF, it may help me figure out what I should be doing. I just want to avoid any equipment other than a light (I'm hoping to use the same light for my FW and my SW tank and just keep them next to each other). 

On 2/20/2021 at 8:45 PM, Tamberav said:

I have some Dictyota probably... I consider it a pest as it grows crazy fast all over so I remove it whenever I can. I suppose its not as invasive in a macro tank. 

Is it brown/yellow? and would you be welling to sell it?

[Broseff]

On 2/14/2021 at 8:07 AM, king aiptasia said:

Aiptasia are very easy to keep without flow, but they and cnidarians in general will make it hard to keep copepods and ostracods in the future if you ever want to go through that route.

Are there any small species of anemone that would work?

 

I assume Majano's are in the same boat as Aiptasia?

 

What about ball tip anemone? I think the strawberry ones looks dope. 

[Lypto]

You can have many species of caluerpa in CA, prolifera and paspaloides I believe is fine.  

I don't think you can have taxifolia, cupressoides, mexicana, sertulariodes, floridana, ashmeadii, racemosa, verticillata, and scapelliformis.

just freeze any you dispose of and throw it in the trash, not the drain. 

[Broseff]

26 minutes ago, Lypto said:

You can have many species of caluerpa in CA, prolifera and paspaloides I believe is fine.  

I don't think you can have taxifolia, cupressoides, mexicana, sertulariodes, floridana, ashmeadii, racemosa, verticillata, and scapelliformis.

just freeze any you dispose of and throw it in the trash, not the drain. 

Prolifera is fine, but I don't really care for the way it looks.

 

This is what I found:

"No person shall sell, possess, import, transport,
transfer, release alive in the state, or give away without
consideration the salt water algae of the Caulerpa species:
taxifolia, cupressoides, mexicana, sertulariodes, floridana,
ashmeadii, racemosa, verticillata, and scapelliformis."

[king aiptasia]

17 hours ago, Broseff said:

Are there any small species of anemone that would work?

 

I assume Majano's are in the same boat as Aiptasia?

 

What about ball tip anemone? I think the strawberry ones looks dope. 

not sure, I've never tried them without flow, but i'd assume its all right

[Broseff]

1 minute ago, king aiptasia said:

not sure, I've never tried them without flow, but i'd assume its all right

So my main 2 problems if I want add anemone are:

1.) Most anemone are big enough to eat Amphipods, which prevents them from repopulating.

2.) Making sure that the anemone population never gets too big, or they'll the pods faster than they populate.

 

And of course my 3rd problem is finding anemone other than Aiptasia. The one's I have now are pretty when they open up, but Majano's look pretty cool. Some Ball Tips look nice too, but I heard they're not photosynthetic and they stay out the light most of the time. 

[Broseff]

I've had some Aiptasia and Valonia chilling in an old Gelato container for a little over a month now btw. 

 

Trying to see if "pests" make for a good ecosystem option. 

 

No water changes, no flow. A little feeding when I feel like it just too keep the Aiptasia healthy. 

It's like less than 16 ounces of water. I added a little bit of rubble and sand (not photographed) recently. I dose a little too. 

 

Probably gonna need a seperate thread for this in the long run if it works.

[king aiptasia]

22 hours ago, Broseff said:

So my main 2 problems if I want add anemone are:

1.) Most anemone are big enough to eat Amphipods, which prevents them from repopulating.

2.) Making sure that the anemone population never gets too big, or they'll the pods faster than they populate.

 

And of course my 3rd problem is finding anemone other than Aiptasia. The one's I have now are pretty when they open up, but Majano's look pretty cool. Some Ball Tips look nice too, but I heard they're not photosynthetic and they stay out the light most of the time. 

my resident amphipods have not been eaten by the anemones, they dont seem to get stuck by them. the copepods are extinct in my tank though

22 hours ago, Broseff said:

I've had some Aiptasia and Valonia chilling in an old Gelato container for a little over a month now btw. 

 

Trying to see if "pests" make for a good ecosystem option. 

 

No water changes, no flow. A little feeding when I feel like it just too keep the Aiptasia healthy. 

It's like less than 16 ounces of water. I added a little bit of rubble and sand (not photographed) recently. I dose a little too. 

 

Probably gonna need a seperate thread for this in the long run if it works.

you're as bad as me lol

[mcarroll]

Copepods are excellent at cryptic living once there are fish in the tank – easy to never see.  

 

But if you catch the right moment, you might find them scurrying in a small area between the rocks and sandbed or in the corners of the tank or other lower-flow, protected areas.  Particularly at night.

[growsomething]

I'm kind of stoked to see this tank work, and like the idea.  I've seen pest tanks before, but just whats in that Gelato container shot looks pretry good.  The right rock, and it could be attractive.

[Broseff]

9 hours ago, king aiptasia said:

my resident amphipods have not been eaten by the anemones, they dont seem to get stuck by them. the copepods are extinct in my tank though

 

I added some amphipods in there and they were eaten. I just made a new setup for it, not much bigger, but definetly more places for them to hide and hang out. 

I'll just make a new thread once the water clears up. 

Anyone know why new growth on a red macroalgae may turn green and mushy?

 

Thread is up, for anyone who wants to follow: 

 

[king aiptasia]

15 minutes ago, Broseff said:

I added some amphipods in there and they were eaten. I just made a new setup for it, not much bigger, but definetly more places for them to hide and hang out. 

I'll just make a new thread once the water clears up. 

Anyone know why new growth on a red macroalgae may turn green and mushy?

 

Thread is up, for anyone who wants to follow: 

 

id wonder why mine aren't getting stuck

[king aiptasia]

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Copepods are excellent at cryptic living once there are fish in the tank – easy to never see.  

 

But if you catch the right moment, you might find them scurrying in a small area between the rocks and sandbed or in the corners of the tank or other lower-flow, protected areas.  Particularly at night.

maybe some exceptionally cryptic species

[Broseff]

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Copepods are excellent at cryptic living once there are fish in the tank – easy to never see.  

 

But if you catch the right moment, you might find them scurrying in a small area between the rocks and sandbed or in the corners of the tank or other lower-flow, protected areas.  Particularly at night.

So, with enough Macoalgae in the tank they might survive by hanging out in the macros? 

 

A lot of the baby amphipods I have seem to hang out on the glass. 

[Subsea]

16 hours ago, Broseff said:

So, with enough Macoalgae in the tank they might survive by hanging out in the macros? 

 

A lot of the baby amphipods I have seem to hang out on the glass. 

While I often see copepods on the glass at night, they  clear out with lights on that enables predators.  
 

Not only would macro be a better surface for pod security, the biofilms on macro surfaces are nutritious for grazing pods.