Adventures in keeping a SPS reef

[Llorgon]

11 hours ago, mcarroll said:

First I've heard of the refugium.  

 

Right now it's competing pretty hard with the display for nutrients.  I would consider shutting down the refugium until this is over with.  At least kill the lights.

 

You might find that your nutrient levels balance on their own after the refugium is offline.

 

Refugiums are interesting, but they really shouldn't be on new aquariums IMO.   They cause problems for new tanks like this ALL THE TIME.

Oh sorry, ya I have a refugium in the sump and I have that tunze submersible refugium light. It comes on reverse the dt lights. I can definitely turn it off or at least reduce the hours it's on. When I first set the tank up, all the algae grew in the refugium and not in the dt so that was nice. I had some caulerpa in there for awhile, but it died off when I did flux rx to try and get a leg up on this stuff.

11 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

That's perfect.   Over shooting is not a problem at all.   If you didn't hear it, your corals let out a collective "Aaaaaah!" when you dumped that dose in the tank. 😉  

 

Just continue testing regularly and mind those lower limits.  (Keep trying to track daily consumption as you mentioned before.) 

I will test again tonight and see where things are at. If there isn't a huge difference in nutrients should I leave the refugium light as is or still shut it off for the time being?

11 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

Holy cow – that's every day?   And it's NOT from your cleaning algae and letting it go down the drain???

 

I'd be interested to see a sample of that under a microscope.

 

Any chance you can post some lux measurements of your display lighting?

Ya, that is everyday. All I did yesterday was pull out algae manually. No scrubbing or anything else.

 

I have a microscope that is supposed to come on Monday, I will post pictures then.

 

I will try and grab some lux measurements tomorrow and post those.

11 hours ago, mcarroll said:

What happens if you just don't run a filter pad at all for a day?   ...can you try it?

I can do that. It usually ends up in the refugium and then it eventually gets backed up and I have to pull it out from there. Usually in the refugium there ends up being big floating mats of the stuff.

5 hours ago, rimga123 said:

It seems like you have been battling low nutrient levels and some sort of algae through ought you whole journey with this tank. this suck and can be very demotivating to keep going.

But a lot of good advice here. @mcarroll Knows what he is talking about. very clear and constructive criticism, I'll want him to evaluate my tank while i eventually (hopefully this weekend)  update my tank journal lol.

Are you still running your radions on 100% intensity? Might be good idea to reduce that significantly. There is a correlation to how intense your light can be to you nutrient levels.

I would also bin the refugium and keep the skimmer aerating the water instead of skimming anything and with the new clean up crew it should you should be on the way to recovery.

Like @mcarroll said, dont be afraid to dose heavy, something is taking everything they can get and they are still hungry.

I absolutely love your hammer coral, it would be a shame to if they died. I lost a couple of my hammers and torches to low nutrients.

 

Ya, opposite of every other version of this tank (theres been at least 3 iterations of it) nutrients were always low this time. I had crysophytes or however you spell it. For quite awhile, but coreals were growing and happy so I left it. Those were gone in the span of a couple days and this stuff moved in.

 

So, radions are the Blues, which from what I was reading most people said to run all the colours at 100%. So, colours all 100%, the overall brightness I think it is is 100% and then the point intensity is 40%. I will admit, I don't quite understand the difference between the 2, but if I remember correctly I was getting about mid 200 to 300 par on the rocks.

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, Llorgon said:

flux rx

Gaah!  No!!  You've really thrown the kitchen sink at this tank over the course of things.   😉   

 

I really wish that treatment had never gotten suggested and then INTENSELY PROMOTED the way it has been.  As you and SO MANY other folks have found, it does not work like you'd want it to.   You're almost guaranteed to have to treat the tank over and over.  Really just dumb for folks this treatment to be promoted....it works only on the thinnest of technicalities.

 

<rant y=notyourfault>

It's almost sickening to think about how much fluconazole folks – mostly newbs – have dumped in their thanks over the last few years and then down the drain.  😵  Definitely not the way to treat an important human synthetic medication.   To make it worse, this is done just to "treat" algae that should be taken care of by hand and by CUC...and mostly by prevention.   Such as colossal waste.  As if algae was a disease, or even something that needs medicine!  This has to be one of the worst threads in the history of the hobby.  I took a ban from that site just for questioning that thread.  It's up there with the old dino threads that would promote "brilliant" ideas like bleaching your tank.  But those bad old threads don't go away....they get promoted by the site or by Google, just like that thread.   Sad.

</rant>

 

Your tank is probably still in recovery from this treatment, in addition to the other things we've touched on.  

 

How long ago since you ended the Fluconazole treatment?  And what did you do to remove the medication from the water?

 

4 hours ago, Llorgon said:

or still shut it off for the time being?

Off until this is all over with, the algae is gone and your corals are happy and growing.  👍

 

Personally I doubt you will need the refugium going forward.

 

4 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I can do that. It usually ends up in the refugium and then it eventually gets backed up and I have to pull it out from there. Usually in the refugium there ends up being big floating mats of the stuff.

I'm curious if this stops when the refigium goes offline.  Or if it relates to something going on in the display tank.  Hard to explain IMO either way.  It's not just your cleanup activities that are causing it, right?

 

Do you see clumps of algae floating around the tank on a regular basis.....enough to explain what you see in the filter pad every day?

 

4 hours ago, Llorgon said:

So, radions are the Blues, which from what I was reading most people said to run all the colours at 100%.

Holy cra*, no!  Your tank is shallow.  

 

FYI, XR30's are for lighting super deep tanks.  XR15's would even be plenty of overkill on this tank.

 

I just read back to the beginning (finally) and your initial SBreef lights (and probably the PAR readings...those doesn't it read in lux natively?) were fine.  You should shoot for numbers like those you initially measured when you get your lux meter back out.  👍

 

Clams are pretty much the most light demanding critter out there....and they only need about 30,000 lux.  So put the clam in the tank's hot spot (if there is one) and let the rest of the tank enjoy lower levels.  👍  (You do have a clam, right?  Am I mixing threads now?  LOL)

[mcarroll]

58 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I will admit, I don't quite understand the difference between the 2,

For this reason, as much as any other, I'd actually consider a different light setup....something that makes more sense to you would be better for obvious reasons.  

 

Plus, a small, shallow tank like this doesn't require much.  Kessils are super simple.  A couple 160's or a 360 would do it.....just one example.

 

[Llorgon]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Gaah!  No!!  You've really thrown the kitchen sink at this tank over the course of things.   😉   

 

I really wish that treatment had never gotten suggested and then INTENSELY PROMOTED the way it has been.  As you and SO MANY other folks have found, it does not work like you'd want it to.   You're almost guaranteed to have to treat the tank over and over.  Really just dumb for folks this treatment to be promoted....it works only on the thinnest of technicalities.

 

<rant y=notyourfault>

It's almost sickening to think about how much fluconazole folks – mostly newbs – have dumped in their thanks over the last few years and then down the drain.  😵  Definitely not the way to treat an important human synthetic medication.   To make it worse, this is done just to "treat" algae that should be taken care of by hand and by CUC...and mostly by prevention.   Such as colossal waste.  As if algae was a disease, or even something that needs medicine!  This has to be one of the worst threads in the history of the hobby.  I took a ban from that site just for questioning that thread.  It's up there with the old dino threads that would promote "brilliant" ideas like bleaching your tank.  But those bad old threads don't go away....they get promoted by the site or by Google, just like that thread.   Sad.

</rant>

 

Your tank is probably still in recovery from this treatment, in addition to the other things we've touched on.  

 

How long ago since you ended the Fluconazole treatment?  And what did you do to remove the medication from the water?

I told you, I am desperate. My thought way to dose the flux rx, get rid of a bunch of the algae and give me a good starting point to increase the cuc to prevent it from coming back. Flux rx had no effect so it was a waste. That was probably in late Sept ish. I added carbon back in, put the skimmer cup back on and did a few 15g water changes to remove it from the tank.

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

Off until this is all overweigh, the algae is gone and your corals are happy and growing.  👍 Personally I doubt you will need the refugium going forward.

 

I'm curious if this stops when the refigium goes offline.  Or if it relates to something going on in the display tank.  Hard to explain IMO either way.  It's not just your cleanup that's causing it, right?

 

Do you see clumps of algae floating around the tank on a regular basis.....enough to explain what you see in the filter pad every day?

Refugium light is off. I don't think it's just the cleanup. I mean some of it is as some escapes my fingers as I am pulling it off, but I wouldn't say all of it is from that. I sometimes see pieces floating around, but it's not a ton of it. Just a piece here and there.

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

Holy cra*, no!  Your tank is shallow.  

 

FYI, XR30's are for lighting super deep tanks.  XR15's would even be plenty of overkill on this tank.

 

I just read back to the beginning (finally) and your ignition SBreef lights (and probably the PAR readings...those doesn't it read in lux natively?) were fine.  You should shoot for numbers like those you initially measured when you get your lux meter back out.  👍

 

Clams are pretty much the most light demanding critter out there....and they only need about 30,000 lux.  So put the clam in the tank's hot spot (if there is one) and let the rest of the tank enjoy lower levels.  👍  (You do have a clam, right?  Am I mixing threads now?  LOL)

No clams. Maybe one day, but I will try and get simple things to stay alive first.

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

For this reason, as much as any other, I'd actually consider a different light setup....something that makes more sense to you would be better for obvious reasons.  

 

Plus, a small, shallow tank like this doesn't require much.  Kessils are super simple.  A couple 160's or a 360 would do it.....just one example.

 

I talked to a few people with similar sized tanks and saw some people online that had the XR15 and wished they went for the 30's. Since my original goal was lots of SPS, I figured going with the 30's couldn't hurt. I was watching

And they had the setting as all channels at 100% and adjust the intensity for the par you want. Which on my not so trusty par meter was about 40% intensity to get the par for SPS. I can probably adjust it down now that most all of the SPS have died off.

[Llorgon]

I feel like I am doing everything wrong. It's amazing things lasted so long before going haywire...

[rimga123]

Dont beat yourself up

I bottomed out my nutrients and killed corals too 

Everything was perfect up until that point.

Its just important to understand your problem (which you do) and just deal with it. 

You are in the process of recovery, keep it going. I would probably cut the lights intensity by half.

[TheCoffeeReef]

Tough looking situation so no wonder you feel down on yourself, but you've been given lots of advice to try and aim for and observe for improvements. 

 

Fwiw, I was seeing algae getting a little too strong in my tiny 4gal pico with a Fluval Sea Nano on near 100% value for whites blues purples and cyans for around 8 hours of photoperiod, curbed the whites and cyans back to lower percents and also reduced time to around 4 hours for them, mostly blue/purple now for remaining time. 

 

That and CUC got it in check. Now, just seems enough to keep the crew fed. 

 

You'll get there with it, try options, but don't try everything at once, otherwise you won't be able to tell what effect did what.

[Llorgon]

4 hours ago, rimga123 said:

Dont beat yourself up

I bottomed out my nutrients and killed corals too 

Everything was perfect up until that point.

Its just important to understand your problem (which you do) and just deal with it. 

You are in the process of recovery, keep it going. I would probably cut the lights intensity by half.

I know it happens, it's just really frustrating. The tank goes to crap so quickly and then takes months to get back on track.

2 hours ago, TheCoffeeReef said:

Tough looking situation so no wonder you feel down on yourself, but you've been given lots of advice to try and aim for and observe for improvements. 

 

Fwiw, I was seeing algae getting a little too strong in my tiny 4gal pico with a Fluval Sea Nano on near 100% value for whites blues purples and cyans for around 8 hours of photoperiod, curbed the whites and cyans back to lower percents and also reduced time to around 4 hours for them, mostly blue/purple now for remaining time. 

 

That and CUC got it in check. Now, just seems enough to keep the crew fed. 

 

You'll get there with it, try options, but don't try everything at once, otherwise you won't be able to tell what effect did what.

I will do some par/lux testing tomorrow to see how much I need to adjust the lights. Hopefully I haven't been too far off in setting them.

 

Water was tested again tonight. 

Nitrate 8ppm

Phosphate 0.33ppm

 

So a decent drop, but still high enough I think.

 

Continued with the removal of algae. The bubble algae is damn near impossible to get off without popping at least some bubbles. Attached a picture of my little clean spot. At this cleaning pace, the tank should be algea free by summer! Haha

[mcarroll]

5 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I told you, I am desperate. My thought way to dose the flux rx, get rid of a bunch of the algae and give me a good starting point to increase the cuc to prevent it from coming back. Flux rx had no effect so it was a waste. That was probably in late Sept ish. I added carbon back in, put the skimmer cup back on and did a few 15g water changes to remove it from the tank.

I'm not sure I've seen any evidence that carbon would adsorb it like they say it's supposed to, and I did try looking that up a few times.  

 

So water changes might be your only tool that positively eliminates it from the system.  Do you think you've done the equivalent of AT LEAST a 100% water change since you ended the treatment?

 

5 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Refugium light is off. I don't think it's just the cleanup. I mean some of it is as some escapes my fingers as I am pulling it off, but I wouldn't say all of it is from that. I sometimes see pieces floating around, but it's not a ton of it. Just a piece here and there.

Hm.   I'm soooo looking forward to microscope day.   I hope it reveals something regarding this.

 

5 hours ago, Llorgon said:

No clams. Maybe one day, but I will try and get simple things to stay alive first.

Then definitely no need for a light of that magnitude.

 

5 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I talked to a few people with similar sized tanks and saw some people online that had the XR15 and wished they went for the 30's.

You know what they say about "some people" right?   They's say/do anything.  Gotta watch out for em!  LOL

 

Unless they were growing clams, or had some weird lighting arrangement where the lights had to be 4' off the tank (some retails shops) there's NO REASON for this much power over such a shallow tank.

 

It's mostly about the water depth.

 

5 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Since my original goal was lots of SPS, I figured going with the 30's couldn't hurt. I was watching

And they had the setting as all channels at 100%

Maybe this is supposed to set up 20,000K color?

 

5 hours ago, Llorgon said:

and adjust the intensity for the par you want. Which on my not so trusty par meter was about 40% intensity to get the par for SPS. I can probably adjust it down now that most all of the SPS have died off.

This is more unfortunate knowledge....most corals don't want or need light that bright.

 

Google photo inhibition in corals (Dana Riddle is a good author to search) for more details.  But the takeaway is that corals don't need much light.....and in fact often do better with less.

 

Certainly from an algae management point of view you want to leverage this and cut lights down as far as you can while still keeping corals happy.   5000-10000 lux would be a decent target range....probably something like 75-150 PAR if you're converting lux to PAR.  (But don't convert....just extra mental gymnastics between you and the conclusion.)

 

47 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

Water was tested again tonight. 

Nitrate 8ppm

Phosphate 0.33ppm

 

So a decent drop, but still high enough I think.

Gives you an idea as to the daily consumption.  👍

 

47 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

Continued with the removal of algae. The bubble algae is damn near impossible to get off without popping at least some bubbles.

That's over-hyped.  Hair and bubble algae already spread by propagules...you aren't doing anything that isn't already happening when you aren't around.....just remove them and be as gentle as is practical....but don't worry if you break some along the way.  Especially now that you have a bigger CUC.   Double-especially if you end up with UV/micron filtration too.

 

47 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

Attached a picture of my little clean spot. At this cleaning pace, the tank should be algea free by summer! Haha

Don't kick yourself! THAT IS CLEAN!!!  😉 

 

Remember that the snails will be compounding your progress as you go.  If you don't know about compounding (as in interest on a loan or investment) then that's something worth Googling later. 😉 

 

If you want to make it official for that little clean spot, GENTLY pick up one of your new snails and place him right on the clean spot so he knows to take care of it now.  

 

They hunt based on memory (like anything I guess) and will avoid areas that have algae too high for them.

 

EXCELLENT WORK.

[Llorgon]

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I'm not sure I've seen any evidence that carbon would adsorb it like they say it's supposed to, and I did try looking that up a few times.  

 

So water changes might be your only tool that positively eliminates it from the system.  Do you think you've done the equivalent of AT LEAST a 100% water change since you ended the treatment?

I went back and checked my notes. I did the flux rx treatment on Sept 23rd. I think I have probably done 100% of water change since then.

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

Hm.   I'm soooo looking forward to microscope day.   I hope it reveals something regarding this.

Amazon says it comes on Monday!

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

Then definitely no need for a light of that magnitude.

 

You know what they say about "some people" right?   They's say/do anything.  Gotta watch out for em!  LOL

 

Unless they were growing clams, or had some weird lighting arrangement where the lights had to be 4' off the tank (some retails shops) there's NO REASON for this much power over such a shallow tank.

 

It's mostly about the water depth.

 

Maybe this is supposed to set up 20,000K color?

 

This is more unfortunate knowledge....most corals don't want or need light that bright.

 

Google photo inhibition in corals (Dana Riddle is a good author to search) for more details.  But the takeaway is that corals don't need much light.....and in fact often do better with less.

 

Certainly from an algae management point of view you want to leverage this and cut lights down as far as you can while still keeping corals happy.   5000-10000 lux would be a decent target range....probably something like 75-150 PAR if you're converting lux to PAR.  (But don't convert....just extra mental gymnastics between you and the conclusion.)

 

Gives you an idea as to the daily consumption.  👍

 

That's over-hyped.  Hair and bubble algae already spread by propagules...you aren't doing anything that isn't already happening when you aren't around.....just remove them and be as gentle as is practical....but don't worry if you break some along the way.  Especially now that you have a bigger CUC.   Double-especially if you end up with UV/micron filtration too.

That's good because I definitely broke a bunch of those bubbles.

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

Don't kick yourself! THAT IS CLEAN!!!  😉 

 

Remember that the snails will be compounding your progress as you go.  If you don't know about compounding (as in interest on a loan or investment) then that's something worth Googling later. 😉 

 

If you want to make it official for that little clean spot, GENTLY pick up one of your new snails and place him right on the clean spot so he knows to take care of it now.  

I gave that a try with one of the ceriths that was on the back wall.

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

They hunt based on memory (like anything I guess) and will avoid areas that have algae too high for them.

 

EXCELLENT WORK.

 

 

Ok, a couple of the euphyllia are looking a bit better... most are not, but I will take what I can get at the moment. I will do some more algae removal later today and test nutrients again. If I can get a consistent uptake, is there any reason not to put them on a doser for a little while?

 

I took Lux measurements with the seneye. I left all pumps on and the eggcrate top. Measurements jumped around a bunch, so I am not sure how accurate they are, but it's something...

[mcarroll]

34 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I went back and checked my notes. I did the flux rx treatment on Sept 23rd. I think I have probably done 100% of water change since then.

If I were you I would still feel pretty good after a water change for this reason....just in case there's any left circulating in there. 😉 

 

34 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

Amazon says it comes on Monday!

🎁

 

34 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I gave that a try with one of the ceriths that was on the back wall.

🙏<-said the snail. 😉 

 

34 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

Ok, a couple of the euphyllia are looking a bit better... most are not, but I will take what I can get at the moment.

That's what you want to see – relief should be pretty immediate in terms of the damage that was in the process of being done.

 

Unfortunately, healing the damage done is another thing and will take time to heal/recover from.  It's not impossible that you might still see some coral get worse, in the case that the damage done was already "too much".   Seems unlikely based on how things were going....just saying that's the nature of the damage from po4-starvation.

 

34 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I will do some more algae removal later today and test nutrients again. If I can get a consistent uptake, is there any reason not to put them on a doser for a little while?

No reason not to....but maybe stick with manual dosing for a week or so to see if it levels out.  It is possible that you might satisfy demand, now that the refugium isn't competing.  Your call tho....like I said, no reason not to, if that's extra convenient to do.  👍. (If the doser overshoots on po4 because demand plateaus, there's really no penalty...just keep monitoring levels closely so it doesn't get crazy.)

 

34 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I took Lux measurements with the seneye.

What do you get at the water line, right about where that red thing (baster handle?) is on top of the tank?

 

34 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I left all pumps on and the eggcrate top. Measurements jumped around a bunch, so I am not sure how accurate they are, but it's something...

They're accurate.  Most meters have a hold button so you can watch for the peak reading (usually what's of interest, but not always) and freeze it there for recording or whatever.   You might explicitly be interested to see the full range of lux that any one position is being exposed to.

 

I've got a good article saved that discuses this aspect of lighting:  "Flicker Light Effects on Photosynthesis of Symbiotic Algae in the Reef- Building Coral Acropora digitifera (Cnidaria: Anthozoa: Scleractinia)."

 

34 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I think those numbers look pretty good....though I'm a little surprised you don't get higher numbers in the middle where both lights overlap.  There doesn't seem to be much of a hot spot anywhere in fact.  (Not a bad thing....just surprising.)

 

As best as you could tell, are those pretty much the maximum values you saw at each location?   (You might re-do the survey and record the max's if not.)

 

We can infer a lot from surface measurements if you also come back with that.   Feel free to map the surface with a few measurements similar to how you did the vertical space.   Mostly we want to know that that peak (or peaks) reading is.

[Llorgon]

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If I were you I would still feel pretty good after a water change for this reason....just in case there's any left circulating in there. 😉 

I will do a water change today and suck out a bunch of algae/cyano as well.

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

🎁

 

🙏<-said the snail. 😉 

 

That's what you want to see – relief should be pretty immediate in terms of the damage that was in the process of being done.

 

Unfortunately, healing the damage done is another thing and will take time to heal/recover from.  It's not impossible that you might still see some coral get worse, in the case that the damage done was already "too much".   Seems unlikely based on how things were going....just saying that's the nature of the damage from po4-starvation.

I have a feeling only a few of the euphyllia will come back, unfortunately.

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

No reason not to....but maybe stick with manual dosing for a week or so to see if it levels out.  It is possible that you might satisfy demand, now that the refugium isn't competing.  Your call tho....like I said, no reason not to, if that's extra convenient to do.  👍. (If the doser overshoots on po4 because demand plateaus, there's really no penalty...just keep monitoring levels closely so it doesn't get crazy.)

I will be away for work 3 days next week and then a 2 day mini vacation the next which is why I am asking. 

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

What do you get at the water line, right about where that red thing (baster handle?) is on top of the tank?

I didn't test at the water line. Mostly on the rocks/sand where the coral are.

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

They're accurate.  Most meters have a hold button so you can watch for the peak reading (usually what's of interest, but not always) and freeze it there for recording or whatever.   You might explicitly be interested to see the full range of lux that any one position is being exposed to.

I'm not sure if the seneye has that, I will have to check.

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

I've got a good article saved that discuses this aspect of lighting:  "Flicker Light Effects on Photosynthesis of Symbiotic Algae in the Reef- Building Coral Acropora digitifera (Cnidaria: Anthozoa: Scleractinia)."

I will check that out!

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

I think those numbers look pretty good....though I'm a little surprised you don't get higher numbers in the middle where both lights overlap.  There doesn't seem to be much of a hot spot anywhere in fact.  (Not a bad thing....just surprising.)

 

As best as you could tell, are those pretty much the maximum values you saw at each location?   (You might re-do the survey and record the max's if not.)

The numbers aren't maximums. I waited a bit and kinda took the average of what I was seeing. I can test again for a max. 

 

There is a centre brace on the tank. So that probably helps with the overlapping hot spot. At least that's what I assumed.

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

We can infer a lot from surface measurements if you also come back with that.   Feel free to map the surface with a few measurements similar to how you did the vertical space.   Mostly we want to know that that peak (or peaks) reading is.

Ok. I can do the surface while I do a water change today.

 

Yesterday was the first day of no refugium light.

Nitrate: 9.1ppm

Phosphate: 0.28ppm

 

So phosphate went down slightly from 0.33 to 0.28 and nitrate went up for some reason.

 

Since turning off the refugium light I have noticed a larger drop in ph at night. Before the lowest it would go is 8.1 now the night time pH drops to 7.8

[Llorgon]

I did a water change today, I added some nitrate and phosphate to the water change water. 

 

Nutrients tonight are 

Nitrate: 8.2ppm

Phosphate: 0.31ppm

 

Unfortunately when I went to take more lux reading my laptop died... It will turn on, start loading and then kernal panic and restart. So I either need to fix that or get a new laptop. With how old it is, I'm not sure it's worth fixing.

 

Anyways, since seneye only runs on windows and my work laptop is Mac, I'm out of a par meter for the time being.

 

I removed some more algae during the water change and sucked up all the cyano from the left corner of the sand bed. I did notice a different kind of algae is mixed in with the gha/lyngbya and bubble algae. It comes off in mats, is much courser to the touch and brighter green. I'm thinking turf algae?

 

If only I was as good at growing coral as I am with algae!

[mcarroll]

On 11/12/2022 at 12:51 PM, Llorgon said:

I will be away for work 3 days next week and then a 2 day mini vacation the next which is why I am asking. 

No risk..just make the schedule conservative.  👍  Does it already seem like demand is leveling out?

 

On 11/12/2022 at 12:51 PM, Llorgon said:

I didn't test at the water line. Mostly on the rocks/sand where the coral are.

I like to use measurements at the water line for lighting setup.  Numbers from tank to tank are much more comparable this way IMO.

 

On 11/12/2022 at 12:51 PM, Llorgon said:

I'm not sure if the seneye has that, I will have to check.

A handheld lux meter only costs $10-15, or even less.  It might be..uh..handy to have both the handheld and the Seneye in some instances.

 

On 11/12/2022 at 12:51 PM, Llorgon said:

I will check that out!

The numbers aren't maximums. I waited a bit and kinda took the average of what I was seeing. I can test again for a max. 

The numbers are good for comparison as long as your sampling method was consistent from measurement to measurement.

 

Usually the max. is the most useful number to know.👍

 

On 11/12/2022 at 12:51 PM, Llorgon said:

There is a centre brace on the tank. So that probably helps with the overlapping hot spot. At least that's what I assumed.

Does make sense.   👍

 

On 11/12/2022 at 12:51 PM, Llorgon said:

Ok. I can do the surface while I do a water change today.

 

Yesterday was the first day of no refugium light.

Nitrate: 9.1ppm

Phosphate: 0.28ppm

 

So phosphate went down slightly from 0.33 to 0.28 and nitrate went up for some reason.

 

Since turning off the refugium light I have noticed a larger drop in ph at night. Before the lowest it would go is 8.1 now the night time pH drops to 7.8

Totally normal swing for pH....nothing to worry about IMO.

 

22 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I did a water change today, I added some nitrate and phosphate to the water change water. 

 

Nutrients tonight are 

Nitrate: 8.2ppm

Phosphate: 0.31ppm

PO4 seems to be holding steady.

 

NO3 seems to have dropped a little....be interesting to see if that becomes a post-refugium trend. 🤔

 

22 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Unfortunately when I went to take more lux reading my laptop died... It will turn on, start loading and then kernal panic and restart. So I either need to fix that or get a new laptop. With how old it is, I'm not sure it's worth fixing.

🫠

 

Could be a HD failure.  Should be easy to confirm.  First try to boot from a CD.  That can affirm whether it's hardware, or storage that's failed. Replacement HD is a cheap fix, of course.....possibly worthwhile.  Laptops can be cheap too tho....depending what segment you're shopping.

 

22 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Anyways, since seneye only runs on windows and my work laptop is Mac, I'm out of a par meter for the time being.

Well I hate to be this right....a handheld lux meter would come in handy right now.  Might be interesting to try out a lux meter app on your smartphone too – in the meantime.

 

22 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I removed some more algae during the water change and sucked up all the cyano from the left corner of the sand bed. I did notice a different kind of algae is mixed in with the gha/lyngbya and bubble algae. It comes off in mats, is much courser to the touch and brighter green. I'm thinking turf algae?

Can't wait for microscope day!!!!

 

22 hours ago, Llorgon said:

If only I was as good at growing coral as I am with algae!

The good news is that corals and algae both like the same conditions.  Herbivory is the difference I the wild as to whether corals or algae dominate.  Corals have armor plating compared to most algae cell walls, so there's no contest when it comes to predation between the two....algae lose; corals get the territory.  Conditions haven't really changed.

 

That's all we're doing here on the microcosm scale – affirming herbivory on prevailing conditions.  (With a few tweaks toward "normal" in your overall conditions too.) 

 

😉 

 

[Llorgon]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:51 PM, mcarroll said:

No risk..just make the schedule conservative.  👍  Does it already seem like demand is leveling out?

I think it's leveling off some. But I think I will need a few more days of testing to tell. Having a water change on the weekend threw things off some in terms of consistent uptake.

On 11/13/2022 at 5:51 PM, mcarroll said:

 

I like to use measurements at the water line for lighting setup.  Numbers from tank to tank are much more comparable this way IMO.

 

A handheld lux meter only costs $10-15, or even less.  It might be..uh..handy to have both the handheld and the Seneye in some instances.

 

The numbers are good for comparison as long as your sampling method was consistent from measurement to measurement.

 

Usually the max. is the most useful number to know.👍

Good to know. I checked out lux meters online. I had no idea they could be so cheap. I will pick one up soon.

On 11/13/2022 at 5:51 PM, mcarroll said:

Does make sense.   👍

 

Totally normal swing for pH....nothing to worry about IMO.

 

PO4 seems to be holding steady.

 

NO3 seems to have dropped a little....be interesting to see if that becomes a post-refugium trend. 🤔

Phosphate seems to be dropping daily, but much less now that the refugium is offline. Nitrate seems to be holding steady for the most part. It seems to bounce around between 8 - 8.4.

On 11/13/2022 at 5:51 PM, mcarroll said:

🫠

 

Could be a HD failure.  Should be easy to confirm.  First try to boot from a CD.  That can affirm whether it's hardware, or storage that's failed. Replacement HD is a cheap fix, of course.....possibly worthwhile.  Laptops can be cheap too tho....depending what segment you're shopping.

I actually got it to work somewhat the other day. I was able to stream half the hockey game before it died again. It's 10 years old so not worth fixing.

On 11/13/2022 at 5:51 PM, mcarroll said:

 

Well I hate to be this right....a handheld lux meter would come in handy right now.  Might be interesting to try out a lux meter app on your smartphone too – in the meantime.

 

Can't wait for microscope day!!!!

Unfortunately it didn't come today... Hopefully tomorrow.

On 11/13/2022 at 5:51 PM, mcarroll said:

 

The good news is that corals and algae both like the same conditions.  Herbivory is the difference I the wild as to whether corals or algae dominate.  Corals have armor plating compared to most algae cell walls, so there's no contest when it comes to predation between the two....algae lose; corals get the territory.  Conditions haven't really changed.

 

That's all we're doing here on the microcosm scale – affirming herbivory on prevailing conditions.  (With a few tweaks toward "normal" in your overall conditions too.) 

 

😉

 

Today ha been a bit disappointing. One of the larger heads of my big euphyllia is starting to bail out.

 

I tested my water tonight and nothing seems out of place.

 

Salinity: 1.025

pH: 7.8 - 8.4

Alk: 8.0

Cal: 485

Mag: 1425

Nitrate: 8.4

Phosphate: 0.21

[TheCoffeeReef]

Give the corals time- you've done a lot to get the tank back into the parameters they want, they're going to need some time to adjust and settle. 

 

Seems to me that patience is the hardest part of this hobby 😅 I'm struggling myself to not fidget with the tank when I see a change on my corals.

 

You've got this, the tanks on the up 👌

[Llorgon]

15 hours ago, TheCoffeeReef said:

Give the corals time- you've done a lot to get the tank back into the parameters they want, they're going to need some time to adjust and settle. 

 

Seems to me that patience is the hardest part of this hobby 😅 I'm struggling myself to not fidget with the tank when I see a change on my corals.

 

You've got this, the tanks on the up 👌

I'm being patient at least as best I can. I just don't want to lose the big euphyllia. At one point it was softball size...

 

The microscope came today and my god is it cheap. I probably should have paid a bit more for one. It's incredibly hard to focus and get a decent picture of things. I'll try again tonight, but here is a photo of the gha/lyngbya.

[Llorgon]

@mcarroll Here's a few more microscope images and a photo of how much algae I am pulling out every night.

[mcarroll]

You might want to thin out your sample a bit more during wet mount so you can get a better look.

 

 

Seems like spaghetti noodles in structure from what I can see – no branching structures.

 

Does that seem accurate to your recollection as well?

 

In terms of what algae are listed at PhycoKey, I think yours looks most like Derbesia:

http://cfb.unh.edu/phycokey/Choices/Chlorophyceae/siphonous_greens/Bryopsidales/DERBESIA/Derbesia_Image_page.htm#pic05

 

Searching Google for "derbesia microscope images" might be helpful while you're at it.  

[Llorgon]

I tried thinning out the sample.

 

Looks like derbesia in the photo, bit not so much the microscope photos.

[mcarroll]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:32 PM, Llorgon said:

Today ha been a bit disappointing. One of the larger heads of my big euphyllia is starting to bail out.

 

I tested my water tonight and nothing seems out of place.

 

Salinity: 1.025

pH: 7.8 - 8.4

Alk: 8.0

Cal: 485

Mag: 1425

Nitrate: 8.4

Phosphate: 0.21

(Somehow I whiffed and didn't see this post until now.)

 

Do as much algae pulling as you can, and maybe focus on the areas immediately adjacent to your corals.

 

I don't know if we've discussed flow much in this thread, but I'm now wondering if your tank might be a little stagnant, relatively speaking?  Do you find detritus on the rocks, within the rock structure, in the sand under the flow pumps, etc?

 

Low flow does a few things in algae's favor.

 

For one, it increases the intensity of any allelopathic chemicals emitted by neighboring algae.  And that coral looks totally surrounded.

 

Low flow also makes it more difficult for corals to access dissolved nutrients in the water.  (Google "coral boundary layer"....it controls everything that goes in or out of a coral.)

 

So it's possible that the coral hasn't been able to leverage the corrections you've made to the extent possible.

 

From pics earlier in the thread it looks like you have two pumps, facing each other, from opposite ends of the tank.  They look like really wide flow pumps a la vortech, et al.   This setup yields predictable dead zones under the pump and in the center of the tank.   (Have you experimented with other placements to see how the pumps perform?)

 

If your rocks are still roughly in that pyramid/mound shape in the middle, that's actually good for potential coral placements since they can grow out into the stronger flow, toward the pump...lots of detritus will be falling there too since that's roughly when the flow poops out from that kind of pump.....food for the corals.

 

But your corals don't seem to be placed with this in mind...the Euphillia is kinda back in a corner....corners are also relatively dead zones.   For now I would move the Euphillia to the rockwork, and into stronger flow.  You might consider similar changes if other corals could use a move too.

 

In the long run (but the sooner the better) I would consider a flow change.  

 

If you like those pumps, consider adding at least one more.....two more wouldn't be overkill IMO...in fact it would probably be ideal, even without all the things going on in this thread....your corals would love it forever.   (If you want recommendations for different pumps, I'll leave it to you to ask.)

[Llorgon]

31 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

(Somehow I whiffed and didn't see this post until now.)

 

Do as much algae pulling as you can, and maybe focus on the areas immediately adjacent to your corals.

 

I don't know if we've discussed flow much in this thread, but I'm now wondering if your tank might be a little stagnant, relatively speaking?  Do you find detritus on the rocks, within the rock structure, in the sand under the flow pumps, etc?

 

Low flow does a few things in algae's favor.

 

For one, it increases the intensity of any allelopathic chemicals emitted by neighboring algae.  And that coral looks totally surrounded.

 

Low flow also makes it more difficult for corals to access dissolved nutrients in the water.  (Google "coral boundary layer"....it controls everything that goes in or out of a coral.)

 

So it's possible that the coral hasn't been able to leverage the corrections you've made to the extent possible.

 

From pics earlier in the thread it looks like you have two pumps, facing each other, from opposite ends of the tank.  They look like really wide flow pumps a la vortech, et al.   This setup yields predictable dead zones under the pump and in the center of the tank.   (Have you experimented with other placements to see how the pumps perform?)

 

If your rocks are still roughly in that pyramid/mound shape in the middle, that's actually good for potential coral placements since they can grow out into the stronger flow, toward the pump...lots of detritus will be falling there too since that's roughly when the flow poops out from that kind of pump.....food for the corals.

 

But your corals don't seem to be placed with this in mind...the Euphillia is kinda back in a corner....corners are also relatively dead zones.   For now I would move the Euphillia to the rockwork, and into stronger flow.  You might consider similar changes if other corals could use a move too.

 

In the long run (but the sooner the better) I would consider a flow change.  

 

If you like those pumps, consider adding at least one more.....two more wouldn't be overkill IMO...in fact it would probably be ideal, even without all the things going on in this thread....your corals would love it forever.   (If you want recommendations for different pumps, I'll leave it to you to ask.)

I have thought I could use more flow as well. I have the 2 octo pulse 2's. One on each end and one side is more in the front and the other side is more in the back facing a bit up and to the back wall.

 

Honestly I never really knew what is good flow vs bad. I set the pumps to run 20-85% forward and reverse. I'm all up for playing with flow. I have the gyre 2k that I can add as well. I bought it because I felt I could use more flow, but I am not sure where to put it.

 

I get cyano on the left front of the sand. So that is probably a lower flow area.

 

When I get back from being away I will put the euphyllia on the rocks. I will need to order some decent coral glue though to keep them in place.

[Llorgon]

I got back from a few days off. I still have a couple days off on Monday and Tuesday as well. 

 

There is definitely more algae than when I left, but I guess that is to be expected. 

 

Some euphyllia are improving while others are not. another head of the large euphyllia bailed, but the one that partially bailed last week is still there. 

 

The manual removal of algae continues.

 

I'm going to try adding to more of the cuc this week and see how that goes.

[Llorgon]

These vacations and work trips really mess with my tank progress. I was gone for 3 days, back for one day then gone for 2 more. 

 

Both nitrate and phosphate dropped during that time. I added some phosphate to my ato water so it only dropped a bit, but my nitrate went from 8ppm to 0. It's now back up to 4.1ppm and 0.13ppm. 

 

I'm still pulling out algae every night. I'm seeing some improvement on the gha, but beneath it is lots of bubble algae. I've found using a screwdriver works great for getting the bubble algae off the rocks.

 

Corals haven't been doing well. The big euphyllia is down to 4 heads, but I think soon to be 2. I spent Sunday night eating dinner with friends watching 2 heads bail out in about and hours time... I'm fully assuming I will probably lose almost all my euphyllia.

 

I have live phyto, 6 astrea and 1 trochus snail that should be delivered on Tuesday. I waited to place the order for cuc so they wouldn't be delivered while I was away and most of the trochus and the tuxedo urchin was sold out. 

 

I'm giving myself until the spring to turn my tanks around. Watching things slowly die is just not fun. Both tanks have become more of a chore these last few months.

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Both nitrate and phosphate dropped during that time. I added some phosphate to my ato water so it only dropped a bit, but my nitrate went from 8ppm to 0. It's now back up to 4.1ppm and 0.13ppm. 

The fact that phosphate did not bottom out again is a crucial victory for you AND the corals though....much more significant than nitrate status.  👍

 

2 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I'm giving myself until the spring to turn my tanks around. Watching things slowly die is just not fun. Both tanks have become more of a chore these last few months.

The Uglies are never fun.

 

And they surely can be a lot of work...at times they can feel demoralizing.  THAT'S WHERE WE COME IN!! 🍻 🙂 

 

It is unfortunate that corals got caught in the ensuing algae bloom and wild nutrient swings....but it does happen.

 

I'm glad the supplement to your CUC is arriving – they will no doubt make a big difference.  

 

I would be prepared to make a judgement in a week or so on whether they are "enough" or not though.

 

If not – if you still see algae making "progress" into areas you've cleaned – then after that week, get another CUC-supplement ordered "asap".

 

On 11/16/2022 at 5:03 PM, Llorgon said:

I have thought I could use more flow as well.

Have you been able to make any adjustments/improvements in this area yet?