Adventures in keeping a SPS reef

[Llorgon]

Elkhorn is almost completely white this morning and one of the heads of the candy cane is dead.... Still might be a bit early to add corals I guess.

 

I can't help but wonder if something is still affecting the tank...

[mcarroll]

5 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I can't help but wonder if something is still affecting the tank...

There's still a LOT of algae growth in the tank.   You could try running some activated carbon....or removing the extra algae you added.   All algae release chemicals into the water that are more or less repulsive to corals.  (This is part of the reason I'm not too crazy about the activation of the macro algae refugium.)

[Llorgon]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

There's still a LOT of algae growth in the tank.   You could try running some activated carbon....or removing the extra algae you added.   All algae release chemicals into the water that are more or less repulsive to corals.  (This is part of the reason I'm not too crazy about the activation of the macro algae refugium.)

Because I need to feel like all this work is doing something, I'll say there's less algae growing back than before... But ya, there's still a lot growing back. 

 

Makes sense on the algae. It's definitely winning still. My thought/hope on the refugium was algae would grow there and less in the display and then its in a smaller place to manage... Hasn't quite worked out yet though.

 

I do have some carbon in the sump. I think it's about a month old so probably time to change it.

 

I guess the manual removal and adding snails continues. On the plus side, the one LFS owner says he can order in whatever snails I need if I give him a heads up of what and how many.

 

I'm due for a win with this tank at some point... Right?

[mcarroll]

28 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I'm due for a win with this tank at some point... Right?

Based on the progress, you're already winning.....just remember it's not a destination, it's a state of being.  For real!

 

 

Order a pack of Turbos or Trochus or Astrea!

[PJPS]

Split your $pend in 3 and get some of each,  they all have their strengths 😊✊🏻.  Those are all efficient algae consumers.  It’s often far less expensive to buy in packs of 10 or 20.  I find it less expensive to keep them fed rather than buy them one by one TBH.  I stock up when places here have invertebrate sales (by here I mean 🇨🇦), which is pretty frequently if you subscribe to online sellers annoying emails.
 

Go a bit easier on the turbo snails they’re pretty big usually.  I’d probably go 5 asrea:5 trocus:1 turbo as a tank ratio, at least that seems to be the ratio of my tanks 🤷🏻‍♂️.

 

I feel your pain though, I feel like I’m due for a win in the SPS tank…

[Llorgon]

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Based on the progress, you're already winning.....just remember it's not a destination, it's a state of being.  For real!

 

 

Order a pack of Turbos or Trochus or Astrea!

Very true. Sometimes it's hard to remember it's a slow progress. Hopefully a big clean will help things a bit.

2 hours ago, PJPS said:

Split your $pend in 3 and get some of each,  they all have their strengths 😊✊🏻.  Those are all efficient algae consumers.  It’s often far less expensive to buy in packs of 10 or 20.  I find it less expensive to keep them fed rather than buy them one by one TBH.  I stock up when places here have invertebrate sales (by here I mean 🇨🇦), which is pretty frequently if you subscribe to online sellers annoying emails.
 

Go a bit easier on the turbo snails they’re pretty big usually.  I’d probably go 5 asrea:5 trocus:1 turbo as a tank ratio, at least that seems to be the ratio of my tanks 🤷🏻‍♂️.

 

I feel your pain though, I feel like I’m due for a win in the SPS tank…

I'm going to skip the turbo snails. They just don't survive in the tank. The last 2 I bought lasted a week and a half. 

 

Which online sellers do you see the sales at? I'm also in Canada. 

 

I checked out your SPS tank. It was looking so good!

[PJPS]

47 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

Very true. Sometimes it's hard to remember it's a slow progress. Hopefully a big clean will help things a bit.

I'm going to skip the turbo snails. They just don't survive in the tank. The last 2 I bought lasted a week and a half. 

 

Which online sellers do you see the sales at? I'm also in Canada. 

 

I checked out your SPS tank. It was looking so good!

Candy Corals has pretty frequent invert sales, New Dawn, Fragbox, Reef Paradise.  Between those, I can usually restock in any given quarter.  In my experience buying 10 packs from Candy Corals when they have one of their sales is by far the cheapest route.  I find the corals out of my price range, the inverts are consistently pretty awesome.

 

was looking good, it’s now a barren wasteland with a few browned out Acros, two Rough montis, everything else looks glorious - but it’s not an everything else dominant tank…

[Llorgon]

3 hours ago, PJPS said:

Candy Corals has pretty frequent invert sales, New Dawn, Fragbox, Reef Paradise.  Between those, I can usually restock in any given quarter.  In my experience buying 10 packs from Candy Corals when they have one of their sales is by far the cheapest route.  I find the corals out of my price range, the inverts are consistently pretty awesome.

I haven't had a good experience with candy corals so I try and stay away from them. I might have to give them another chance. Reef paradise is a new one I haven't heard of before. Definitely check that out. I usually go with j&l because they are in BC so cheaper shipping and they have good prices.

3 hours ago, PJPS said:

 

was looking good, it’s now a barren wasteland with a few browned out Acros, two Rough montis, everything else looks glorious - but it’s not an everything else dominant tank…

I feel your pain! Hopefully the SPS starts to make a comeback for you.

[PJPS]

32 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

I haven't had a good experience with candy corals so I try and stay away from them. I might have to give them another chance. Reef paradise is a new one I haven't heard of before. Definitely check that out. I usually go with j&l because they are in BC so cheaper shipping and they have good prices.

I feel your pain! Hopefully the SPS starts to make a comeback for you.

Ah!  I here you regarding shipping.  I’ve had mixed results with CC coral, but the inverts are solid.  For coral, both my spots are out west - FG and NDA, those coral are hardy AF.  But I eat it on shipping 🤬

[Llorgon]

15 hours ago, PJPS said:

Ah!  I here you regarding shipping.  I’ve had mixed results with CC coral, but the inverts are solid.  For coral, both my spots are out west - FG and NDA, those coral are hardy AF.  But I eat it on shipping 🤬

I will have to try them for inverts I guess. Shipping is always a pain!

 

Last night after lights out I counted 25 ceriths throughout the tank. I still have tons of little snails, a few hermits and I see some trochus and astrea around as well. So cuc is coming along.

[PJPS]

A+, build it as you have $ to spend.  Probably best to build on it over time, I do my best to prioritize it, but sometimes a nice coral shouts "buy me!" much louder than a pack of snails ;).  So I try to work a few trochus/astrea into any coral order, $pendier but a bit less demoralizing.  So I do one big re-up/year (my CC order), and get $20 of snails with most coral orders throughout the year (2-3).

 

I firmly believe tank management is easier when you have a lot of coral, but I'm putting that to the realest test over the next 10 days.  I have 11-14 SPS arriving to repopulate the SPS tank.  I'll either blow it all up, or all that mass will soak up any chemistry issues.  It works well with softies//LPS, and it's previously been effective with SPS, but I've never gone this hard so fast.

 

Guess we'll all find out 😂

[Llorgon]

22 hours ago, PJPS said:

A+, build it as you have $ to spend.  Probably best to build on it over time, I do my best to prioritize it, but sometimes a nice coral shouts "buy me!" much louder than a pack of snails ;).  So I try to work a few trochus/astrea into any coral order, $pendier but a bit less demoralizing.  So I do one big re-up/year (my CC order), and get $20 of snails with most coral orders throughout the year (2-3).

That's a good way of going about it. I'll have to try that out. Just buy a few snails with every coral order.

 

22 hours ago, PJPS said:

 

I firmly believe tank management is easier when you have a lot of coral, but I'm putting that to the realest test over the next 10 days.  I have 11-14 SPS arriving to repopulate the SPS tank.  I'll either blow it all up, or all that mass will soak up any chemistry issues.  It works well with softies//LPS, and it's previously been effective with SPS, but I've never gone this hard so fast.

 

Guess we'll all find out 😂

I'm interested in seeing how that goes. Hopefully it works out for you. So far my coral adding attempts haven't gone smoothly lately.

[Llorgon]

Yesterday I did a big tank clean and water change. I took out 2 and a half of these 

 

I also spent a bunch of time trying to remove as much algae from the acan as I could. 

 

Powerheads were cleaned, skimmer cleaned, carbon replaced, water changed. Big tank maintenance day!

[PJPS]

it's certainly looking better, but still a lot of algae... i'd be tempted to put 2 urchins in there... as your effective CuC grows, the algae will eventually become a goal to keep them fed, but until then it's disheartening for sure.  Corals will have a hard time with that much algae.  Try 2 pincushins, give them a week, they're THE best algae eaters, and given your tank is so productive at the moment, an urchin or 2 should be fine.

 

You still want all the snails for detail work, but a bulldozer or two seem in order 🤷‍♂️

 

Turkey baste the rocks and sand right before you remove water for each water change, hopefully that removes some of whatever is fuelling it over a few water changes.  Algae is healthy, but something unknown is fuelling that much growth.  Did/Do you turn off DT flow when feeding?  I find that lets a ton of food settle, so I wonder if that's what's fuelling it.  My fish and critters have to chase their food and they certainly stay quite healthy and fit lol

 

Describe your feeding routine (including coral food), maybe we can find the culprit.

[Llorgon]

2 hours ago, PJPS said:

it's certainly looking better, but still a lot of algae... i'd be tempted to put 2 urchins in there... as your effective CuC grows, the algae will eventually become a goal to keep them fed, but until then it's disheartening for sure.  Corals will have a hard time with that much algae.  Try 2 pincushins, give them a week, they're THE best algae eaters, and given your tank is so productive at the moment, an urchin or 2 should be fine.

 

You still want all the snails for detail work, but a bulldozer or two seem in order 🤷‍♂️

I tried a tuxedo urchin about a month ago. I think it lasted about 2 days. It moved from the rock to up the glass and down to the sand bed and didn't move again. It had lost spines in the bag from shipping so maybe I need to try and find a local one...if possible.

2 hours ago, PJPS said:

 

Turkey baste the rocks and sand right before you remove water for each water change, hopefully that removes some of whatever is fuelling it over a few water changes.  Algae is healthy, but something unknown is fuelling that much growth.  Did/Do you turn off DT flow when feeding?  I find that lets a ton of food settle, so I wonder if that's what's fuelling it.  My fish and critters have to chase their food and they certainly stay quite healthy and fit lol

I turkey baste the rocks almost nightly after I do some algae removal/scrapping. I also replace the filter floss every 1-3 days. I do turn off the flow when I feed though.

2 hours ago, PJPS said:

 

Describe your feeding routine (including coral food), maybe we can find the culprit.

Feeding:
10ml live phyto once lights come on
small pinch of pellets in the morning before phyto
small piece of nori every 1-3 days
I take a cube of frozen food and split it between this tank and the 25g each night.

 

I add 5 capfuls of neonitro and 4 capfuls of neophos to the ATO container each week. It seems to be keeping nutrients stable since the big dose before I went on vacation. Tuesday is water testing day so I will see how the water change affected nutrients.

 

One thing I can think of is I haven't vacuumed the sand in quite awhile. I suck up algae off the sand bed, but by the time I get done sucking it all out, I have hit my 10g of water change volume. Maybe a mid week sand cleaning is in order...

[PJPS]

2 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I tried a tuxedo urchin about a month ago. I think it lasted about 2 days. It moved from the rock to up the glass and down to the sand bed and didn't move again. It had lost spines in the bag from shipping so maybe I need to try and find a local one...if possible.

I turkey baste the rocks almost nightly after I do some algae removal/scrapping. I also replace the filter floss every 1-3 days. I do turn off the flow when I feed though.

Feeding:
10ml live phyto once lights come on
small pinch of pellets in the morning before phyto
small piece of nori every 1-3 days
I take a cube of frozen food and split it between this tank and the 25g each night.

 

I add 5 capfuls of neonitro and 4 capfuls of neophos to the ATO container each week. It seems to be keeping nutrients stable since the big dose before I went on vacation. Tuesday is water testing day so I will see how the water change affected nutrients.

 

One thing I can think of is I haven't vacuumed the sand in quite awhile. I suck up algae off the sand bed, but by the time I get done sucking it all out, I have hit my 10g of water change volume. Maybe a mid week sand cleaning is in order...

if haven’t cleaned the sand bed yet, definitely hit that.  I’d probably hit it fairly hard at this point just out of frustration, but if you want to keep your pod population do it in 25% chunks.  
 

your feeding isn’t wild crazy or anything, so a junked up Sandbed seems as likely a culprit as any.

 

I’ve only ever bought dry goods from JL so I can’t really speak to their livestock.  But snails and urchins aren’t crazy sensitive.  I’d say do an ICP, but dropped needles in the bag aren’t a great sign that you’ve been sent a healthy animal.

 

If you do get one locally, buy it and then let the LFS keep it for two weeks if possible.  Some LFS do this if you explain you really want the animal, but need to fix something minor with your tank first.  If you have a good relationship, just ask him to hold it and he probably will.  The key is buying it up front, I’ve never met resistance in having anyone hold something a week or two if I’m happy to pay for it first.

 

I am poor AF by the way, I just keep money aside in case of crashes, etc.  That fund is currently sitting somewhere around negative $400.  It’s usually $1000,  it’ll take a year to get back to that.  In case it seems like I have unending money as I’m suggesting you get all these things 😊.  I’m all too well aware this can get spendy fast, just relaying what has worked for me in the past/currently.  Proceed at your own financial pace ✊🏻🇨🇦

[Llorgon]

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

if haven’t cleaned the sand bed yet, definitely hit that.  I’d probably hit it fairly hard at this point just out of frustration, but if you want to keep your pod population do it in 25% chunks.

I would like to keep my pod population. I spent enough money seeding them and I tell myself they help eat some algae.

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

 

your feeding isn’t wild crazy or anything, so a junked up Sandbed seems as likely a culprit as any.

Sandbed seems to be one of those things no one can decide to clean it or leave it be. At this point, cleaning part of it can't hurt.

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

 

I’ve only ever bought dry goods from JL so I can’t really speak to their livestock.  But snails and urchins aren’t crazy sensitive.  I’d say do an ICP, but dropped needles in the bag aren’t a great sign that you’ve been sent a healthy animal.

J&L is usually pretty good on their livestock. Prices are also pretty good usually. I'm hoping the urchin and the coral were one-offs. I will say their site is pretty much out of date which is why I rarely order corals from them. Fragbox is generally my go to for corals. Or local people if someone has something for a decent price. I do miss the bigger city for that. Lots of people selling or even giving away frags. 

 

I've done a few ICP tests since the tanks went south. Even did an n-doc one. The turn around time has been a month. So I don't find them too terribly useful.

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

 

If you do get one locally, buy it and then let the LFS keep it for two weeks if possible.  Some LFS do this if you explain you really want the animal, but need to fix something minor with your tank first.  If you have a good relationship, just ask him to hold it and he probably will.  The key is buying it up front, I’ve never met resistance in having anyone hold something a week or two if I’m happy to pay for it first.

Hmm I've never tried that. I haven't seen an urchin in a LFS here, but that's a good idea!

1 hour ago, PJPS said:

 

I am poor AF by the way, I just keep money aside in case of crashes, etc.  That fund is currently sitting somewhere around negative $400.  It’s usually $1000,  it’ll take a year to get back to that.  In case it seems like I have unending money as I’m suggesting you get all these things 😊.  I’m all too well aware this can get spendy fast, just relaying what has worked for me in the past/currently.  Proceed at your own financial pace ✊🏻🇨🇦

Haha no worries. Seems like everything is kinda pricey these days. I think @mcarrollwas suggesting getting more corals as well. The ones I've picked up haven't gone as planned. I guess I could just go the fast growing soft corals route and give the SPS a try in the 25g.

 

I forgot to mention for feeding I target feed reef roids a couple times a week to the acans, Duncan and the one remaining euphyllia.

[PJPS]

I’d hit the sand around the Acans and anything you spot feed RR to.

 

I have very mixed results from Fragbox, so I pretty much stick to all aquaculture, except softies and gorgs.

 

Coral is great for this, fill it with inexpensive stuff just to fill it out (think mosst animal for the money, your LFS might be able to help if you explain the strategy).  You’ll be spending, but will also be taking them back as you swap stuff out for shit you want.  They may be willing to cut you a break on the price, it never hurts to ask.

 

[Llorgon]

38 minutes ago, PJPS said:

I’d hit the sand around the Acans and anything you spot feed RR to.

 

I have very mixed results from Fragbox, so I pretty much stick to all aquaculture, except softies and gorgs.

With the exception of one DOA coral, I've had great experiences. I have only ordered from j&l, fragbox and candy corals. So I might have to expand. When I lived in Vancouver I pretty much only bought from other hobbyists. I don't do that much anymore though.

38 minutes ago, PJPS said:

 

Coral is great for this, fill it with inexpensive stuff just to fill it out (think mosst animal for the money, your LFS might be able to help if you explain the strategy).  You’ll be spending, but will also be taking them back as you swap stuff out for shit you want.  They may be willing to cut you a break on the price, it never hurts to ask.

 

Unfortunately the inexpensive encrusting corals don't seem to like my tank. Softies are more expensive than I thought they would be. A softy and acan tank doesn't sound so bad. 

 

I could send a few emails and see what sort of packages places could put together for me.

[PJPS]

58 minutes ago, Llorgon said:

With the exception of one DOA coral, I've had great experiences. I have only ordered from j&l, fragbox and candy corals. So I might have to expand. When I lived in Vancouver I pretty much only bought from other hobbyists. I don't do that much anymore though.

Unfortunately the inexpensive encrusting corals don't seem to like my tank. Softies are more expensive than I thought they would be. A softy and acan tank doesn't sound so bad. 

 

I could send a few emails and see what sort of packages places could put together for me.

I’d love to see a Canadian swapping thing come together where people essentially just pay the shipping to each other, and nobody’s looking to make any money or if they are everybody is happy with the pricing.

 

I shop cross country and just eat the shipping when I have to. This is great for getting the best live stock or dry goods deal, but I try to arrange things where my spend is big enough to get free shipping.

 

i’ve had good success giving owners a budget and asking what they’d be able to put together for that amount of money, given I’m trying to accomplish X.  Having that budget be above the free shipping minimum is helpful 😉.

 

The fragbox stuff is usually fine, I just find it doesn’t look great long term in my tank like the FG/NDA stuff.  That’s said, the beautiful leather in the lagoon is from FB.

[Llorgon]

12 hours ago, PJPS said:

I’d love to see a Canadian swapping thing come together where people essentially just pay the shipping to each other, and nobody’s looking to make any money or if they are everybody is happy with the pricing.

Make it happen! Canadafragswap.ca is available.

12 hours ago, PJPS said:

 

I shop cross country and just eat the shipping when I have to. This is great for getting the best live stock or dry goods deal, but I try to arrange things where my spend is big enough to get free shipping.

 

i’ve had good success giving owners a budget and asking what they’d be able to put together for that amount of money, given I’m trying to accomplish X.  Having that budget be above the free shipping minimum is helpful 😉.

I might have to try that out. Minimum shipping is like $300-400+ That's a bit much for things that may or may not survive in the tank. But I see what you mean. $100-200 would get me like 1-2 corals at some places.

12 hours ago, PJPS said:

 

The fragbox stuff is usually fine, I just find it doesn’t look great long term in my tank like the FG/NDA stuff.  That’s said, the beautiful leather in the lagoon is from FB.

I've noticed that as well, but I always assumed it was a common thing and just depended on lights and or water parameters.

[PJPS]

So did I (think my system was responsible) but aquacultured pieces hold their looks for me much better.  It may well be that I run my system in a way that FB pieces don't like, certainly not throwing shade their way.  But that's my experience, I have similar issues with Candy Corals coral (their gorgs excepted, they have nice cheap gorgs) so I just skippem for coral, inverts no prob, coral - NDA and FG, NDA if you want the best value for $,  FG if you're looking for the very best SPS in Canada that are also tank stable.

[mcarroll]

23 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I also replace the filter floss every 1-3 days.

How does it look on Day 3?  If it looks dirty already, consider replacing it more often OR consider not using it at all.

 

23 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I do turn off the flow when I feed though.

Unless you have a very specific reason for doing this, don't.   (Nobody turns off the flow in the ocean so these guys can eat!) 😉 

 

23 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Feeding:
10ml live phyto once lights come on
small pinch of pellets in the morning before phyto
small piece of nori every 1-3 days
I take a cube of frozen food and split it between this tank and the 25g each night.

Considering only the pellets, nori and frozen, do any of them take a long time to get eaten?   Would you consider any of them "more wasteful" than the others?  (This will depend as much on your critters and how they respond to your feedings as it does on you.)

 

23 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I add 5 capfuls of neonitro and 4 capfuls of neophos to the ATO container each week.

How are levels after then end of that week/before you dose?

 

23 hours ago, Llorgon said:

One thing I can think of is I haven't vacuumed the sand in quite awhile.

I thought you had already checked this, but I may be thinking of some other thread....easy to check this without a full cleaning being required.

 

Just swizzle your finger (or something) around in the sand area where you're curious about.  If you see anything other than perfectly white aragonite sand-powder get stirred up (ie anything brownish or blackish, etc) then that's a problem area.  Could be worth some vacuuming – but hitting the sand with a powerhead before your regular water change might be more efficient.  Pretend you are a hurricane.  🙂 

 

18 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I forgot to mention for feeding I target feed reef roids a couple times a week to the acans, Duncan and the one remaining euphyllia.

I don't think target feeding is usually an issue – but only YOU would know for sure in your case.  (I imagine you'd have said something about it by now tho if it was a potential problem.).  If it's messy, consider taking a break.  As mentioned above, it's easy to check the sand in their area.  👍

 

 

[mitten_reef]

On 3/13/2023 at 4:34 PM, Llorgon said:

10ml live phyto once lights come on

 

On 3/13/2023 at 4:34 PM, Llorgon said:

I add 5 capfuls of neonitro and 4 capfuls of neophos to the ATO container each week.

thanks to @PJPS for asking the important questions around feeding routine and food.    

 

Interesting to see that you're essentially fertilizing your tank.  as far as I know, most live phyto comes in green water, which is straight fertilizer water....then you're also adding both nitrate and phosphate supplements.  I think you'll continue to be stuck in the cycle of "raising nutrients" and algae removal if you don't stop fueling the algae with fertilizers.  have you thought about measuring the N & P levels a day or two after you did a deep clean (what would the N&P levels be without all the algae sucking them out of water)? i.e. if it rises from your current baseline, that means you're the one fueling the algae growth.   or just slow down your phyto and N&P supplement every time after a deep clean, and see how long it takes the algae to regrow each time you step down the doses?  

 

and yes, dino will be lurking right around the corner if this is not done gently and the nutrients plummeted.  But at this point, I'd rather deal with dino for 3-4 weeks vs perpetual algae      

[PJPS]

2 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

 

thanks to @PJPS for asking the important questions around feeding routine and food.    

 

Interesting to see that you're essentially fertilizing your tank.  as far as I know, most live phyto comes in green water, which is straight fertilizer water....then you're also adding both nitrate and phosphate supplements.  I think you'll continue to be stuck in the cycle of "raising nutrients" and algae removal if you don't stop fueling the algae with fertilizers.  have you thought about measuring the N & P levels a day or two after you did a deep clean (what would the N&P levels be without all the algae sucking them out of water)? i.e. if it rises from your current baseline, that means you're the one fueling the algae growth.   or just slow down your phyto and N&P supplement every time after a deep clean, and see how long it takes the algae to regrow each time you step down the doses?  

 

and yes, dino will be lurking right around the corner if this is not done gently and the nutrients plummeted.  But at this point, I'd rather deal with dino for 3-4 weeks vs perpetual algae      

To my knowledge the vast majority is water, then phytoplankton, then F2 fertilizer.  If you leave live phyto to settle, the water becomes clear with a thin layer of green at the bottom.  RN live phyto is potent stuff, 10ml is a lot.  I do 10ml of a weak culture, RN is $30/bottle, the stuff I use is $13/bottle.

 

So another relevant question is - what live phyto are you using?