Timfish Posted December 4, 2020 Author Share Posted December 4, 2020 (edited) And I have a developmental disorder Farkwar. That doesn't stop me from learning methods and behaviors needed to communicate and interact with people effectively. You seem to be confused with the idea that microbes living on the surface mucus layer can be considered a part of the coral. If you read Rohwer's book and the refferences listed by him, Mcarrol and myself it is clear the assemblage of microbes associated with a coral are species specific. Meaning, two specimens of the same species separated by distance will have the same microbial species found in their mucus layer but two different species next to each other will have different microbial species in their mucus layer. This species specific association of coral and microbes has come to be called the coral holobiont and for all intents and purposes is conseidered to be a single organism since the microbes living in the mucus layer are as critical to the corals survival as the simbiotic algae living inside the coral tissue. Arguably, the microbes living in the mucus layer may be more important since they are essential for a coral's survival if it bleaches. Edited December 4, 2020 by Timfish Grammer 1 Quote Link to comment
Subsea Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 Personally, I don’t care who catches the fish. Let’s focus on knowledge and not debating skills. Without a doubt, bacteria in surface mucos are differrent than bacteria in coral biomass interior. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcimb.2014.00176/full Microbes in the coral holobiont: partners through evolution, development, and ecological interactions Janelle R. Thompson1*, Hanny E. Rivera1,2, Collin J. Closek3 and Mónica Medina3* 1Civil and Environmental Engineering Department, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, USA 2Department of Biology, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, MA, USA 3Department of Biology, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA, USA In the last two decades, genetic and genomic studies have revealed the astonishing diversity and ubiquity of microorganisms. Emergence and expansion of the human microbiome project has reshaped our thinking about how microbes control host health—not only as pathogens, but also as symbionts. In coral reef environments, scientists have begun to examine the role that microorganisms play in coral life history. Herein, we review the current literature on coral-microbe interactions within the context of their role in evolution, development, and ecology. We ask the following questions, first posed by McFall-Ngai et al. (2013) in their review of animal evolution, with specific attention to how coral-microbial interactions may be affected under future environmental conditions: (1) How do corals and their microbiome affect each other's genomes? (2) How does coral development depend on microbial partners? (3) How is homeostasis maintained between corals and their microbial symbionts? (4) How can ecological approaches deepen our understanding of the multiple levels of coral-microbial interactions? Elucidating the role that microorganisms play in the structure and function of the holobiont is essential for understanding how corals maintain homeostasis and acclimate to changing environmental conditions. Introduction 1 Quote Link to comment
Subsea Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 Let’s talk more about crosstalk between bacteria & macro algae. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cross-talk-between-bacteria-and-macro.771893/ [The seaweed surface provides a suitable substratum for the settlement of microorgansims and also secretes various organic substances that function as nutrients for multiplication of bacteria and the formation of microbial biofilms (Steinberg et al., 2002; Staufenberger et al., 2008; Singh, 2013). Microbial communities living on the seaweed surface are highly complex, dynamic and consist of a consortium of microorganisms including bacteria, fungi, diatoms, protozoa, spores and larvae of marine invertebrates (Lachnit et al., 2009, 2011; Goecke et al., 2010; Burke et al., 2011a, b). Among them, bacteria are ubiquitous and occur either on the seaweed surface or in the cytosol of living host cells (Herbaspirillum sp. in Caulerpa taxifolia) and determine different stages of the life cycle of eukaryotic organisms including macroalgae (Delbridge et al., 2004; Burke et al., 2011a; Singh et al., 2011a, b, c). Quorum sensing (QS) signalling molecules produced by Gram-negative bacterial strains determine zoospores settlement in Ulva species (Joint et al., 2002) and spores liberation in Acrochaetium (Weinberger et al., 2007) and Gracilaria species (Singh, 2013). Thallusin, a bacterial metabolite, and nitrogen-fixing bacteria associated with seaweeds have also been found to be responsible for induction of morphogenesis and growth in marine macroalgae, respectively (Chisholm et al., 1996; Matsuo et al., 2005; Singh et al., 2011b). Macroalgae (as a host), also known to be ecosystem engineers, play critical roles in structuring of intertidal communities (Jones et al., 1994). Some water-soluble monosaccharides such as rhamnose, xylose, glucose, mannose and galactose are part of algal polysaccharides that constitute part of the cell wall (Popper et al., 2011) and the rest storage material (Lahaye & Axelos, 1993; Michel et al., 2010a, b). These algal polysaccharides are a potential source of carbon and energy for numerous marine bacteria (Hehemann et al., 2012) that produce specific molecules, which in turn facilitate seaweed–bacterial associations (Steinberg et al., 2002; Lachnit et al., 2013). Therefore, these interactions between seaweeds and bacteria have fascinated and attracted the attention of many researchers worldwide.] PS. Sorry for the double post. I forget myself sometimes. lights just came on so I will throw in a picture. 1 Quote Link to comment
farkwar Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 Thought I deleted this Quote Link to comment
farkwar Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Timfish said: ...may be more important... Doubt Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 (Started writing this post last night and just finished it now....in the mean time subsea has hit the nail right on the head. As usual. 👍) On 12/4/2020 at 11:27 AM, Timfish said: You seem to be confused with the idea that microbes living on the surface mucus layer can be considered a part of the coral. Even I have to admit that the concepts are fairly mind blowing – amazing. 🤯 All the more so when I consider the ramifications... Coral and algae "mucus clouds" – and all of the associated microbes, aka the coral's holobiont – are interacting and competing with each other continuously over the reef. Mucus is a feeding method, cleaning method, self-defence method, communication method, etc. And each type of animal (or plant) has it's own signature "blend" of mucus molecules too...which allows each type of animal (or plant) to cultivate its own unique holobiont. Mucus is pretty amazing. Check this link: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C47&q=coral+algae+mucus&btnG= But into that morass of Nature, we inject all manner of carbonaceous substances – sometimes synthetic – and other things into that mucus system and voila – coral disease and bleaching. Excessive carbon on a continual/regular basis throws off the whole ecosystem anyway...allowing "lower" organisms to dominate that would ordinarily be carbon limited or not present at all. It's hard to say what the exact effect is of the synthetic carbonaceous substances is, but "as bad or worse" comes to mind. Reduced herbivory's impact comes partly this way as well....stressed corals on the verge of bleaching will be pushed further in that direction by encroachment of algae due to the increase of algae mucus and it's proprietary microbes and all that that entails. Getting back to herbivory, here's a quote that says how surprised (literally, first word) even the scientists in the "Sleeping functional group..." article were about the Batfish scenario where they reversed an algae takeover of a stony coral reef (emphasis mine): Quote Surprisingly, reversal of the phase shift through the direct removal of macroalgae was not a result of grazing by parrotfishes or surgeonfishes, the most abundant herbivores on reefs, nor any other of the 43 herbivorous species recorded in the vicinity. Recovery was primarily due to a single species, the batfish, Platax pinnatus (f. Ephippidae) (Figure 3, Figure 4). This species was consistently observed removing and ingesting large pieces of Sargassum (the dominant macroalgae) (see the Movies in Supplemental Data available with this article online). The batfish may also have contributed to algal removal by dislodging algae when feeding. This uningested material would therefore have entered the detrital food chain. Platax are relatively rare on the Great Barrier Reef (GBR) (with mean densities of 1.6 individuals per ha; Table S1). However, the batfish appeared to be attracted to the algal stands; the DV cameras regularly recorded one to three adult batfishes (approximately 30–40 cm total length and 2.5 kg each) feeding on the algae. Algal feeding is unusual for this species, which is usually reported to be a benthic invertebrate or plankton feeder [17], with sessile invertebrates normally predominating in its diet (Table S2). 1 1 Quote Link to comment
Subsea Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 [But into that morass of Nature, we inject all manner of carbonaceous substances – sometimes synthetic – and other things into that mucus system and voila – coral disease and bleaching. Excessive carbon on a continual/regular basis throws off the whole ecosystem anyway...allowing "lower" organisms to dominate that would ordinarily be carbon limited or not present at all. It's hard to say what the exact effect is of the synthetic carbonaceous substances is, but "as bad or worse" comes to mind.] Above quote should be post of the day. In a reef tank, carbon dosing feeds all bacteria. Protein skimmers (foam fractionators) attach free swimming bacteria to be exported as skimmate. Note: bacteria that do not swim are not harvested develop denser populations: Cynobacteria comes to mind. 1 Quote Link to comment
Timfish Posted December 6, 2020 Author Share Posted December 6, 2020 On 12/4/2020 at 12:12 PM, farkwar said: Doubt Of course you do! 😄 Quote Link to comment
farkwar Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 30 minutes ago, Timfish said: Of course you do! 😄 You are not the best spokesperson for the hypothesis The Doc, of your book, is showing exact what I thought. I bought it by the way, the book Like I said, overfishing by little brown people with flat noses(not commercial fishing). And they are pooping on the corals. Streptococcus, Enterobacteria, E coli. And Vibrios are human gut bacteria, human poop bacteria Staphylococcus obviously grows on human skin mostly Interesting, in that for the reef aquaria where an aquarist may have say SPS tips that are browning, an antibiotic dip may, may, be therapeutic Quote Link to comment
farkwar Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 And when the idea of using acyclovir for zoapox crossed my mind It was not so far off Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 Your troll schtick is showing... 1 Quote Link to comment
farkwar Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, mcarroll said: Your troll schtick is showing... What? You don't think zoapox might be herpes? I've always thought they were Quote Link to comment
Timfish Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 On 12/5/2020 at 11:20 AM, mcarroll said: . . . Even I have to admit that the concepts are fairly mind blowing – amazing. 🤯 All the more so when I consider the ramifications... When I first stumbled across Roher's and Ritchie's research and 16Srna testing what first amazed me was what a tiny percentage (~5%) of the microbial stuff was culturable. I would have liked to be in the labs when they fisrt started to realize how much more complex these microbial processes were to see their faces. ANd along with all the stuff going on in the mucus researchers are finding some pretty complex stuff with endoliths in the skeletons too: https://www.academia.edu/40855695/Down_to_the_bone_the_role_of_overlooked_endolithic_microbiomes_in_reef_coral_health?email_work_card=view-paper 2 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Something like 70% of the biomass in the ocean is viruses. The article I read that in has since gone 404 (had it linked here back in 2014, glad I quoted the most-relevant parts), but it's one of the most intriguing things I've ever read on this topic. It's a point echo'd on the Wikipidia page on marine viruses, so you can probably trace the quote source from there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_viruses (Checking out your link!) 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Still reading, but I noticed that the publisher also has free access to the article (just FYI): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41396-019-0548-z 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Would like this to headline all the big fluconazole threads promoting its use: Quote Endolithic fungi Endolithic fungi are as prevalent as microalgae in coral skeletons. They penetrate the calcium carbonate microstructures and ultimately interact with Ostreobium cells [23]. The first endolithic fungi isolated from coral skeletons in the Caribbean and the South Pacific belonged to the divisions Ascomycota and Basidiomycota [24]. The intrusion of fungal filaments into the polyp zone of the hermatypic coral Porites lobata is known to prompt a defence mechanism involving a dense deposition of skeleton, resulting in pearl-like structures [23]. These observations were extended to acroporid and pocilloporid corals, suggesting that endolithic fungi are geographically and taxonomically widespread [25]. Along with endolithic algae, fungi are present in the newly deposited coral skeleton [5, 25], and exhibit rapid growth to match skeletal accretion [23]. The originator of the fluconazole treatment partly predicted the "ok-ness" of this treatment on the "fact" that no fungi live in corals. (Link. You may have to go a bit forward or backward in the thread to find the exact start if that isn't it.) I lacked the citation to prove it at the time, but how F'ing unlikely would that assertion be based on everything we know about terrestrial fungi?? Turns out to be 100% unlikely. LOL. Not only are fungi there in community with corals, they grow in the same community with filamentous green algae (eg. hair algae) as well. I have always ranked this treatment up there with bleaching rock. 💩 @TimfishI'm still not done reading, but THANK YOU for posting this! 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) On 12/4/2020 at 11:55 AM, Subsea said: Let’s talk more about crosstalk between bacteria & macro algae. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cross-talk-between-bacteria-and-macro.771893/ I hate to say it, but the direction of that thread was not what I expected, yet was predictable in hindsight. This was the contribution.... Quote While I don't see a need to sterilize the surfaces of macroalgae, It is not clear to me that anything bad will happen if you do.What exactly would happen that is bad, aside from possibly damaging the macroalgae? Why not answer the question rather than posing it? Don't tell me he's being socratic because it stymies the conversation. Edited December 9, 2020 by mcarroll made not sense on first edit. ;) 1 Quote Link to comment
farkwar Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 3 hours ago, mcarroll said: Would like this to headline all the big fluconazole threads promoting its use: Presumes the conclusion That the fungi, though ubiquitous, are not pathogenic Is there any science on that? Quote Link to comment
Timfish Posted December 9, 2020 Author Share Posted December 9, 2020 @Mcarroll I haven't had time to read through the links you just added but I hadn't heard that about fluconazole. Looks like another example of ego motivated blinders. Rowher talks about how many viruses are in saltwater and even in just a 1 cm³ he's got to use exponential notation. 1 Quote Link to comment
Subsea Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 13 hours ago, farkwar said: Presumes the conclusion That the fungi, though ubiquitous, are not pathogenic Is there any science on that? Yes, fungi are everywhere. On the reef, fungi are food for filter feeders. Also, fish graze on biofilms with abundant bacteria & fungi. Sounds like a banquet to me. PS. YES FUNGI ARE FOOD, EVEN TO HUMANS 1 1 Quote Link to comment
farkwar Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Subsea said: EVEN TO HUMANS Ya Well then tell me which food group it's in then Quote Link to comment
farkwar Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Subsea said: fungi are everywhere Seriously tho When I was reading his link where that the fungal filaments were embedded in coral skeleton I was reminded of a couple people I knew who had fungal infections(in the brain). It's bad news Quote Link to comment
Subsea Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, farkwar said: Ya Well then tell me which food group it's in then Mushrooms. A mushroom or toadstool is the fleshy, spore-bearing fruiting body of a fungus, typically produced above ground, on soil, or on its food source. ... "Mushroom" also describes a variety of other gilled fungi, with or without stems, therefore the term is used to describe the fleshy fruiting bodies of some Ascomycota. 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 @Timfishstill reading...that article is full of goodness like this: Quote Chemical gradients Pore water within the skeleton differs drastically from the surrounding seawater in its chemical profile. High enrichment in phosphate, ammonium, nitrate, and nitrite have been recorded [31, 40, 43]. Although the metabolic activity of the overlying coral tissue undoubtedly will have an influence on the chemical composition of skeletal pore water, the diverse endolithic assemblages are likely responsible for the remineralization of organic matter and excretion of nutrients [31]. This enriched pore water has been, until now, completely overlooked and could constitute a potential source of nutrients for the tissue, but also for the Symbiodiniaceae. For instance, dissolved inorganic nitrogen concentrations present in pore water could fulfil 200% of the coral’s nitrogen demand [31]. It is however currently unknown if this enormous nutrient pool is accessible to the coral tissue. Awesome to know and I can't say it's completely surprising since by inference they've been able to say for some time now that, overall, reefs are nutrient generators. Great that the "how?" has been elucidated at least to this degree! The in situ light microenvironment of corals has really been the only article I've had on that area of study, what's going on in the skeleton....very interesting in lots of ways too, maybe still worth a read if you haven't seen it! (Mathieu Pernice is one of the co-author in both articles.) 2 Quote Link to comment
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