Ignorant (but researched!) questions, and seeking reassurance.

[Latent]

So. Hi! Long time reader, first time poster, and all that. This is going to be a *long* post. Tune out now, or get a comfy chair.

 

A little background. I have reasonably extensive background in freshwater tanks. I've always had a lot of 'luck' and very little fish loss. I rarely tried breeding, but when I did, it went okay, except for the livebearer that birthed *and* ate while I was at work. I take pride in having healthy looking fish. I usually overspec the tank - right now, behind my desk at work, I have a 29 gallon with six Neon Tetra's, two Swordtails, and a Betta fish. I could put so much more stock in that tank, but I like to be safe, with happy fish.

 

And then I saw a nano reef. Clearly, safety is going out the window. (mostly)

 

I'm seeking reassurance in that I'm going to lay out my whole plan here, and wait to get flamed, or helpful advice. Maybe both. I've read a *lot* of stuff, so if I ask a completely ignorant question, I guess it just slipped through. Please don't say something like, "do a search" because I've tried.

 

I bought a 10 gallon all glass tank. I've had it on my desk holding water just leak testing (safety!) for a week now, while my reef stuff is in the mail. It's fine. It's the standard 12x12x20.

 

I ordered:

 

A box of 25 gallons worth of instant ocean.

Hydrometer

100 W heater w/guard. (Maybe I should have a 50?)

Saltwater Master Test Kit

Calcium Test Kit

Kent Marine and Reef starter kits.

 

Kits include:

Calcium (reef)

Iodine (reef)

Strontium & Molybdenum (reef)

Pro Buffer (marine)

Ammonia Detox (marine)

Essential Elements (marine)

 

My lighting is all coming from Aquarium Hobbiest Supply (http://www.ahsupply.com/) - I ordered their 10 gallon canopy, and the 2x36 W kit, with a 6500k and Blue Bulb.

 

I also got a 110 gph powerhead, and a faucet water deionizer.

 

Here's the plan. When it's all here, deionize about 9 gallons of water or so, mix the salt, and let it get stirred around by the powerhead in the tank for a while. Test for salinity, shooting for around 1.022, or 1.023. Heat it to 80. Put the lights together, and set them for 12 on/12 off for the 6500k, and 13 on/11 off for the blue, with 30 minutes of dusk/dawn.

 

Here's where my plan falls apart, and becomes questions.

 

One - my 110 gph powerhead can aerate. I won't have a power filter, biowheel, or even a skimmer. I plan to change 15-20% of the water in two small changes on monday and friday (7-10% each change. My tank will be at work.) So, I don't have anything that actually agitates the water surface. In freshwater, it's my understanding that agitated surface water is how oxygen gets dissolved in the water. Since the water surface will be more or less still, should I have the powerhead aerate? It produces a rather unattractive stream of bubbles, but they vanish quickly, and won't cover the canopy with salt. OR! Should I get a protein skimmer, and if so, why can't I find one that fits on a 12 inch tall tank?

 

Two - I was thinking about ordering 'the package' from http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com - this can have two downsides that I can see - One, the rock isn't cured. And they tell you not to cure it. There will be die off, but this should? be okay, I think. Their plan for adding LR and LS to the tank is the following -

 

First Shipment: All the LS, and half the LR comes. Put it in the tank. Let it die off, and complete a full cycle with nothing else in there. Do water changes as necessary to keep ammonia below very toxic levels.

 

Second Shipment: After the cycle is finished, they send you the pretty live rock, the crabs, snails, and some other assorted stuff. After everything is stable like that, maybe get a fish. (tank raised false clown, I think is what I want.)

 

Does this sound crazy? It's a good deal, and I've heard great reviews about them. I'm a little concerned about using non-cured rock, but since there won't be any fish to be affected by this initial cycle, will it be okay?

 

Three - A curiosity question. How do I feed this whole thing? Like, I can't find anything on maintenance/feeding beyond water changes or skimming - do you put any nutrients in for the LS or LR? (Besides trace elements, I can follow those directions.) If not, what do they 'eat'? Is it mostly photosynthesis?

 

Four - What happens if/when a tank 'crashes'? I mean, I know it's bad, but I've heard the word a lot, and I'm not sure what it means. Does *everything* die? And I also understand that it's sudden - how sudden? An hour? A day? What exactly happens? And if it does happen, how over is everything? Do you need new LS and LR? Or do your corals and inverts just stress and die because you screwed up?

 

Finally - Is there anyone in or near NYC that wants to help out an ignorant bugger like myself? At the least, I could use a recommendation on a local store I can go to, Petlands and Petco's don't really cut it for me. You know, to buy a coral, or shrimp. I can't really find anything, somehow.

 

So uh. Yeah. Thanks for reading! (if anyone actually got this far! ;p) I look forward to any advice. Even flames!

[Crakeur]

Let's start with congrats on doing your homework. Everything is well thought out and the plan is pretty good. The live rock and live sand program from tampa sounds allright to me. Although, the second round of addition will definitely need another month of cycling. In regards to feeding the tank, assuming you have a fish in there, you feed the fish and that is really it. If you have inverts, corals etc.. you can (should) be adding food for them as well. Depending on the livestock this can be pureed seafood, dt's phytoplankton etc. The critters in the live rock and sand will get what they need from your regular fish and coral feedings.

 

A protein skimmer isn't always necessary. There have been a few recent posts regarding them so you might want to read up. If you do weekly water changes you should be fine without one. The same goes for adding trace elements. None needed if you do frequent changes.

 

I won't talk about tank crashes other than to say that you end up with a rapid death of the majority of your tank. It happens. The less said, the less I can jinx myself.

 

I live in NYC and will tell you of two places that are accessible via the subway. The first is New World Aquarium. They usually have decent livestock but they are very expensive and the people that work there, and the owner, are elitist snobs. Their knowledge will vary depending on who you talk with but they are salesmen first and will sell you a small tang for a nano reef just to make a buck.

 

The second store is called Aqua Art and it is located in Brooklyn (williamsburg). Their phone number is 718-302-9080. The store is owned and operated by two former New World Aquarium employees that know what they are doing. They haven't been opened for very long so they aren't very stocked yet (plus they are waiting for cooler weather before fully stocking). Their prices will be roughly one third less than New Worl, across the board. Sean and/Tony are always their and they won't steer you wrongly.

 

If you want to head farther out of the city, there are places on Long Island and in New Jersey where the stock is greater but the prices will be too.

 

Lastly, there are a few online retailers that people have had good successes with regarding buying livestock. Ask around, they will gladly tell you. For me, Premium Aquatics has been stellar for hardware, IPSF.com has also been great for sandbed/refugium items and Flyingfishexpress and Marine depot have been fairly consistent. Others may tell you otherwise but these 4 have always worked for me and when problems have arisen, they have been handled in a very professional manner.

 

When it comes time for corals, there are a million places to go to but, truthfully, your best bet is to find someone local who has frags to trade. You won't be paying much (shipping is usually the most they ask for) and you will usually get livestock that is in good shape (who would trade crap out knowing that it will end up back on these boards?)

 

Welcome to the hobby, get ready for some fun, frustration, aggrivation, expenses and enjoyment.

 

I hope all this helps. hell, it was almost as long as your post.

 

Crakeur

[MKramer]

I second glazer, sounds like you definitely spent some time looking into all this. And it sounds like you came out of it with some good research. Let's see if I can help fill in the gaps....

 

First, with the trace element additions, I personally don't use them (they get decently replenished by water changes). If you coose to use them in your tank, though, I would suggest at least waiting a month or so. Let everything stablize and develop into the beginnings of a balanced system before you start adding anything. The only additives I would recommend would be for calcium and alkalinity. I've become a recent B-ionic convert, myself.

 

Powerheads: I would get a second one. First, 110gph is on the low end of decent current in a reef tank, and it will only decrease as gunk builds up i nthe powerhead. Second, by coordinating the outputs of the two powerheads, you can create a more turbulant, life-like flow, as opposed to a narrow, high-force stream. Additionally, do not use the aerator on the powerheads. Gas exchange should be facilitated by increasing water surface flow and area. This is most easily done by pointing the powerhead output at the water's surface to create a ripple. The tiny air bubbles geberated by the aerators on the powerheads can irritate and even kill tank invertabrates. I can't advise you on a skimmer, as I've never owned one.

 

"The Package:" If the price is right, sounds like a good plan to me. I've heard good comments about their live rock before. Putting uncured rock directly into a small aquarium is a bit of a nuissance, as it can take a while to die-off and process its own byproducts. During which time, your tank can take on a lovely aroma. however, if you have the patience, you will, in the end, have a greater diversity of life in your tank than those who buy pre-cured rock. Just be aware that this could take a while, especially without a skimmer. As for "feeding" the rock, what comes on it will generally fit into these categories:

 

photosynthetic (such as corals and algaes)

algae grazers (which eat the algae, duh)

filter feeders (eat phyto and zoo planktons, which are produced by the rock)

 

In addition, you may get hitchhikers, such as snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.. Most of these will eat the algae, but there can be "bad guys," too. They'd have to be judged on a case-by-case basis to determine their needs or possible removal.

 

So really, all you need is light.

 

crashes: Basically what happens is that there is a build-up of toxins that reaches an uncontrollable point, and your tank is unable to process them. I've never experienced one myself, so I can't say exactly how people run itno this problem. I imagine it's usually because of a large die-off, or disurption of a deep sand bed (a deep sand bed has anaerobic bacteria in the bottom layer that will die when exposed to the oxygenated water).

 

The repair process depends o nthe reason for a crash. For a simple nitrogen cycle crash, like can be caused from die-off, you jsut have to let the tank complete it's cycle, perform lots of water changes, then re-introduce life. For hard element crashes (theory of the month is that deep sand beds accumulate hard elements over their lives, and after 4-6 years, they can start leaching the poisons back into the water at a concentration that is deadly), one ahs to change out sand and/or rock.

 

Good luck, and if any other questions pop up, ask away.

[SteveC]

I am in almost exactly the same boat as you are. I have my 10 gallon tank and my 2x36w lighting kit from AH Supply just arrived yesterday (I ordered the bulbs separately from hellolights.com because I wanted a 10,000K).

 

One thing you should know: the 2x36w kit has both bulbs hooked up to a single shared ballast, so having separate timing for each lamp is not as simple as having two $4 appliance timers, if it's even possible at all. I was a little disappointed by this, too, and I wish that I had read the description more carefully. Hellolights has a nice 1x96w PC kit that will fit over a 10 gallon, and without independent timing this is probably a better choice, assuming the weird bulb it involves will always be available.

 

I'm also planning on getting "the package" from TBS, even though I'm a little bit concerned about the inclusion of a sea cucumber. Maybe I'll see if I can house it separately, or get them to leave it out.

 

Steve

[printerdown01]

1)Aeration is not necessary. So long as you have decent water movement over the surface of your water your O2 exchange will be just fine, no skimmer necessary.

 

2)Using uncured rock during cycle is a wonderful idea in my opinion! LOL, I usually take flack for my opinion here, but here is my logic: You need die off or at least some form of decaying matter in order to “kick off” the cycle. Most people put a fish (like a damsel) in the tank for this purpose. Uncured rock will do the same thing. Although I suggest water changes if you do this. The other benefit is that you will end up with beautiful and biologically diverse LR (not to mention that you just spared a fish from being placed under enormous amounts of stress)! Cured live rock, become depleted of life and diversity (often they are cured in large vats where the ammonia levels are EXTREMELY high, and are poorly laminated –which further depletes life on the rock). Question, why don’t they send you all the rock at once?? Another tip: add some oolite sand (finely crushed aragonite) to the LS. This will cause more “compaction” and give you more surface area as well, which will allow the sand bed to be much better at filtration . The compaction makes it so that O2 is less able to penitrate the sand bed, creating more anaerobic area (which is hard to come by in a small system).

 

3)You will not need to add any nutrients for the LS or LR. If you are using 1 blue and 1 white light, I would suggest only running the blue during the cycle (this will enhance your coralline growth)! Almost everything on your LR is going to either photosynthesize or filter feed (there should be plenty of dissolved nutrients in the LR and LS to sustain their health through the cycle –bacterial plankton included).

 

4)Tank crashing… mmmm… let’s just hope this doesn’t happen (usually caused from doing something to your tank that you shouldn’t have, i.e. letting it go a couple of months w/o water change or using a “reef safe” medication that wasn’t exactly reef safe!). Essentially almost everything in your tank will die, your LR and LS should be ok, unless you did something like drop a penny in the tank (copper).

 

**side note: Use about 50% (or less) of the recommended dosage of additives on the tank. Nanos are small and the concentrations of additives build up quickly and can become toxic. Also check your salt, for iodine levels ect. You might find that if you dose with iodine you will be over doing it (this would be true in my case as I use Coral Life –high in iodine). You should shoot for a S.G. that is closer to 1.023 if you want your target range to be 1.022 and 1.023… I usually run my SG at about 1.025 (my xenia and shrooms are much happier here). The key is really to keep it as stable as possible no matter what level you are trying to achieve.

***lighting side note: this is plenty of light!! Deezreef kept SPS and blue maximas in a 10 with 2x28W, and did so for a LONG time.

[ross76053]

Latent,

 

I'm just about a week ahead of you... I added my live rock/sand last Thursday, and I'm not getting much of a cycle at all. Don't want to buy a Damsel - not crazy about them. I'll probably add snails soon, at the advice of a member above.

 

I have the exact light kit you have, along with the same tank. Just wanted to say "thanks" for posting your questions - I had some of the same questions, but didn't want to over-post. I'm amazed at the depth of experience in nano-reef's forums.

 

Hey, good luck - it's gonna be a blast!

 

Ross

[Dave ESPI]

Not only did you make s SUPERB first post, but you are obviously intelegent and are NOT making a Ghetto tank.

 

The previous responses are great also.

On to My .02 cents....

 

The LR should be ok to add. Be aware you will need to get more than 15 # or so from mail order as a minimum order. I live in Albany NY. I can be reached on AIM at Dave ESPI and emailed at ESPI360@aol.com if you need anything. you obviously are putting forththe effort, and I would like to help you.

 

ASIDE: to the Peanut gallery reading this :... STFU ! I can be nice too :woot:

 

If yopu need a custom hood I have 3 ready to go. lemme know. They are perfect fer yer set up.

 

AFAIC, Tank crashing... its part of reefing. EVERY reefer experiences a crash at some point.. Voluntary ot animal induced... it happens. Just worry when the time comes, and the best way to resolve it, a BIG w/c and removal of the dead with an Anti- tox like AMGUARD by Seachem, and Stresscoat. ttyl

Oh and Im the as*h0le.. LOL Welcome to nano !

[Latent]

Wow. Thanks for all the great responses. My lights got a little lost, so they didn't arrive today. Hopefully the post office will get things in order, and bring it down from Harlem, and over to the west side.

 

I've got my salty water heated up, and being powerheaded around. I'm kicking around using my very tiny Penguin Biowheel Mini sans Biowheel on the opposite side of my tank in place of a second powerhead. It may very well produce bubbles, which I now know I don't want. I hate the idea of giving up my lovely activated charcoal. My freshwater tanks look so pure and crispy, even when held next to Poland Spring. *whimper*

 

More than likely, I'll try to get a Rio 50 for the other side. Very little, and it'll bring my overall circulation to 160 gph. If that ain't enough, well... um... I'm pretty sure that's enough.

 

Crakeur, thanks for the location of Aqua Art, and NWA. I'll certainly be checking out both, but knowing my intense dislike for people of the snooty persuasion, I know where I'll try to spend my money. MKramer, thanks to you too. I'm a little afraid of the 'aroma' since my tank is at work near other people, but what the hey. They'll live. Steve and Ross, lemme know how they turn out.

 

And printerdown! Like a tard, I was looking for something neutral and long to stir my tank with to mix the salt, and I'm in an office. So I grab a ruler, and rinsed it for about 10 minutes, and stirred away. After about 10 seconds of stirring, I'm looking at the little metal ridge at the end, and the phrase, "drop a penny into the tank" flys through my head. Out comes the ruler. I'm no chemist, but I think even if it is copper, what can happen in 10 seconds?

 

Dave, does this sound Ghetto yet? Thanks for the offer for the hood. I've seen your flame posts, and I'm deeply touched. I already ordered the hood though, so I wouldn't have to try my hand at woodshop class and be reminded every day that I have two left thumbs. I did wonder though, where I might be able to pick up cheap thin plexi to put between the lights and the tank. To #### you off, I won't even look around for other suggestions.

 

Thanks again, guys. Seriously! Kudos to you all!

[ross76053]

Latent,

 

You mentioned possibly getting a Rio 50 for your tank.... Don't buy one - I've got an extra one you can have fer nothin' if you'll pay for the shipping (I'm guessing three or four bucks max). I couldn't get the danged suction cups to stick, so you may need to jack with it a bit, but it's been used a total of about 24 hours. Actually I've got two - I'd be glad to send 'em both to ya if ya can use 'em.

 

Ross

[BustytheSnowMaam]

Hi,

 

I use a hang-on-back (HOB) filter on my tank, running it with the filter pad only. I put activated charcoal in it once in a while, for a day or so, and it also provides some extra water movement. Just a suggestion for you.

 

I have to say to everyone on this thread (including the author) that I am very impressed with the depth of knowledge you all have and the thoroughness of your answers.

Tasha

[printerdown01]

Latent,

If you take Ross' Rio 50, you could just go down to the LFS and pick up some new suction cups (I think they are one of the few 'replacement' parts that Rio makes ). I think they sell for about $3 here :-D. Also I too like activated carbon in my tank. If you do use it, remember to keep up on water changes and dosing (depending on what you have in your tank).

[Latent]

Wow! Well, I'll admit it, I can't say no to Rio 50's, since my two favorite online stores, http://www.drsfostersmith.com and http://www.thatpetplace.com don't even sell the things. :*(

 

Even better, thanks to my collection of heaters, thermometers, and well, everything else, I only have well... a million, billion suction cups. Ross, expect an e-mail. And thank you! And thanks again, everybody.

[Dave ESPI]

Dont use Plexi. It will warp and is privy to U/V staining or yellowing. Go to a Glass shop and get 1/8th inch glass cut and have the edges ground down smooth.

Glass cuts are bad. it will also not diffuse light.

NP on the hood offer. Where ya getting Rock from?

[spoondigity]

Sounds like a great setup and I think you have already gotten a ton of great info. I started a 10 gallon (first salt and first nano) myself just about 2 1/2 months ago so I have been through the same steps recently. I am probably not experienced enough to give advice, but I can attempt to at least tell you what works with my setup.

 

If your live rock begins to stink too badly for your fellow workers, you could take out a couple of pieces and cure them at home. Just use a bucket with a powerhead/hang on the back filter and a well placed water change or two. You might also use a heater if needed. My uncured rock would turn your nose when I got it hehe. Maybe just leaving a few less smelly pieces in to cycle at work would be an option for you. I had to take a toothbrush to some of the rock I initially bought to get the really nasty stuff off but they are absolutely gorgeous now (coraline growth). Just be careful not to treat it too poorly (keeping it out of water for long periods or in extreme temps/water chemistry). From what I have been told, you can kill the bacteria inside the rock and it will bleach out when things get too extreme for long periods. I think your live rock package deal sounds good. I ended up adding my second half of live rock as cured rock too. It was added later to my tank and it didn't spike or bother my livestock.

 

I went with a skimmer myself but either way works fine. It does a lot of aeration from everything I have read while also pulling a lot of the junk out. If you are good with your weekly water changes (sounds like you will be) you won't need one. You may also avoid potential noise level problems in the work place without the extra sound coming from a skimmer.

 

Good luck with the new tank!

 

P.S. The key with salt tanks seems to be 'get it stable and leave good enough alone'. If you see something that could be a real problem, take corrective measures, but otherwise if your tank is stable, don't tinker too much or you will shoot yourself in the foot. I also have the feeling that the less additives the better as a general rule.

[XtremeSport]

Souds great. I am a newbie just like you so I cant offer expert advice, but, I do work in NYC. What kind of DI did you get and where?

 

Thanks,

Jay

[Latent]

My nano-reef has almost come together. Dave, I was ordering rock from http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com - it's uncured, but supposed to be bio-diverse as heck. Since I don't have anything else in the tank, a rough die-off cycle won't be the end of the world. I'm looking at 'the package' you can find on their site. I'd be interested in your opinions.

 

Jay, I bought a 'tap water filter' from Drs. Foster Smith here: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod...d=7&pCatId=4484, and I have to say, it's pretty decent. With NYC water, it doesn't seem to have much issue making it sparkly. It's a mild pain to get set up, and it leaks a bit, but it's darn cheap. The only problem is every ~100 gallons, you need to buy a $17 cartridge. Still, that's $.17 a gallon.

 

Spoondigity, thanks for the advice. I'm trying to look into making the tank as self sufficient as possible. I'm looking at this water top off system - http://www.californiareefs.com/forsale.htm which someone on this board offers for sale. (I forget your nick! Sorry!) Anyway, I'm not much of a DIY'er, so pre-made = good.

 

Also to Dave, I didn't buy glass, yet. I went to Home Depot, and picked up some Lexan, which is like Plexi, but supposedly UV treated, meant for outdoor use, and all that jive. If it yellows, warps, or does anything weird, I'll find a glass shop, and have it made up. It's just that Lexan is easy to shape and drill (I sized it myself with just a box cutter) so I can poke some vent holes in it, and other stuff you can't do so easy with glass. If I crack it, or screw up royally, it also sets me back $1.45 for new Lexan, plus 30 minutes in line at the Home Depot checkout.

 

I'm also grouchy, as the Post Office 'lost' my package from AHSupply with all my lighting, so I have a Lexan covered tank, heated, circulating, but dark as heck. So no rocks for me, yet. AHSupply is pretty nice about it, though, and they're reshipping, even though the first package seems to have gone the way of the Roanoke colony of Virginia. ;p

[tinyreef]

just chiming in, you should eventually expect to change to glass or at least hi-heat plexi (acrylic). the lexan is much more heat resistant but suspectible to uv degradation (3-year tops outdoors). i make the replacement light covers. they all eventually yellow and break, even the 'vandal-proof' covers and then they have to re-order (hee hee).

 

the acrylic is inherently uv-resistant but not as heat resistant (that's why CD's are made of polycarbonate, lexan's just GE's trade name for polycarb).

 

glass is a nice in-between material. you may want to get a couple of pieces to allow easier cleaning and maintenance.

[spoondigity]

Oh yeah, Physh1 makes those top off items. I think several people on the forum are using/getting them so maybe they can give you some feedback. I might be interested in one myself, just using a drip right now.

[Dave ESPI]

http://www.liverocks.com

It's a MUCH better operation. ya can call them. Tell them I sent you.

Tampon Bay ... (PUN) sells so much rock, they dont let the rock rest in the ocean NOR do they hand pick what is ripe. They just grab and shove from all the orders Ive seen, it is medieokre at best. Sure they can have some exceptional rocks in the box, but I dont use it cept as base rock. Try Triton Marine ( the above link)

ALso I have rock Im in Upstate NY. lemme know.

See Inepha's tank its my handi work / rock.

 

Oh, also from having R/C cars, Polycarbonate will release toxic fumes when heated. Lexan is a no no over a reef. it will also be impossible to clean hard water and calcium /mineral deposits fron it as it is more porous than glass ( under a microscope). Just a heads up. Get glass... Dont say we didnt "told ya so".....

[Latent]

Secretly, I'm stopping by a local glass shop that (hopefully) opens at 7. I should have a nice 8.5"x19.5" 1/8th" sheet of glass under my just today assembled lights by 9am tomorrow.

 

And as a side note:

 

HOLY COW, THEY GET HOT. AND I CAN'T FREAKIN' BELIEVE HOW *BRIGHT* THEY ARE. I must be out of my mind to have this on my desk. I look like a freakin' smurf at my desk with all the blue light, too. I'm never getting any respect at work. *ever again*

 

So you have rock, huh? I just looked at Inepha's tank. Holy cow, you have rock. (http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...35629#post35629 for people following the discussion.) And you have sand. And stuff. And you're in upstate new york.

 

...

 

...

 

Okay, so, I'm going to bother you on AIM now. ;p

 

But uh... what the heck is wrong with toxic fumes?