Not having success

[Clown79]

Just now, Llorgon said:

Ya the shipping and availability of things in Canada isn't great, but it seems to slowly be getting better again. J&L is shipping again which is nice. I am going to give this cuc another week or so before adding more. I want to see how they do.

 

That makes sense about the coraline. If corals aren't happy coraline probably won't be either. Probably why I'm not getting any growth.

 

Agreed on the dosing. I tend to only add what I can test.

 

I did dose some phosphate yesterday. Just to try and get the number up from 0 it was reading the other day.

 

 

Well talking to many store owners it's because of covid.

There is literally 1/8th of the flights happening.

 

Many countries are involved with collection and shipments so it's not just Canada, it's also what's happening in the country we get our livestock from.

 

Most stores were getting weekly shipments and during covid it's been 1 every few weeks if that.

 

If you are only dealing with J&L that will be limiting.

[Llorgon]

I should add an update. Been removing gha every night. I don't really seem to be getting on top of it. There are some places on the back wall that are staying algae free, but on the rocks and coral bases it comes back within the week.

 

Been feeding 1/4 cube frozen every day and dosing some nitrate and phosphate every other day. Which is helping to slowly bring up the nutrients.

 

I've lost a few snails already which is super frustrating. So I am going to need to order some more.

 

Anyone have some recommendations for a good number and variety of cuc to get?

 

 

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I should add an update. Been removing gha every night. I don't really seem to be getting on top of it. There are some places on the back wall that are staying algae free, but on the rocks and coral bases it comes back within the week.

Sounds like good progress, you just need to add more cleanup crew AND/OR be more aggressive in showing the snails you have that new spots have been cleaned.  They hunt from memory!  🤔

 

After you clean, pick one or two snails up very gently and place them right in the middle of your new clean spot.

 

3 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Been feeding 1/4 cube frozen every day and dosing some nitrate and phosphate every other day. Which is helping to slowly bring up the nutrients.

The object is not to bring them up slowly.  

 

The object is to prevent them from being zero at all, ever again.  

 

If you have to dose more or more frequently (or feed more or more frequently), then by all means do it.

 

3 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I've lost a few snails already which is super frustrating. So I am going to need to order some more.

 

Anyone have some recommendations for a good number and variety of cuc to get?

I would expect that to stop once nutrients levels are more consistent and the algae is faster growing (and more edible).

 

Start by telling us what CUC you have access to at the local store.

 

Also, what cleanup crew do you have right now?  (Be as certain of the number as you can be.) 

 

As far as types of snail, theoretically anything that's an herbivore is good.  

 

Opting for at least some "large" snails is a good idea, within the limits of what the tank needs.

 

 

[Llorgon]

20 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Sounds like good progress, you just need to add more cleanup crew AND/OR be more aggressive in showing the snails you have that new spots have been cleaned.  They hunt from memory!  🤔

 

After you clean, pick one or two snails up very gently and place them right in the middle of your new clean spot.

 

The object is not to bring them up slowly.  

 

The object is to prevent them from being zero at all, ever again.  

 

If you have to dose more or more frequently (or feed more or more frequently), then by all means do it.

 

I would expect that to stop once nutrients levels are more consistent and the algae is faster growing (and more edible).

 

Start by telling us what CUC you have access to at the local store.

 

Also, what cleanup crew do you have right now?  (Be as certain of the number as you can be.) 

 

As far as types of snail, theoretically anything that's an herbivore is good.  

 

Opting for at least some "large" snails is a good idea, within the limits of what the tank needs.

 

 

Ok. I guess I should move a snail to the cleaned spot. I haven't been doing that.

 

I have to test my water again tonight. Nitrates were around 5ppm last week. Hopefully my phosphates have gone up. I will dose accordingly if not.

 

I seem to have decent availability to order things in. Here is the site I usually order from https://www.jlaquatics.com/livestock/marine-invertebrates/snails.html

 

So for cuc, from what I can see:
2 - turbo
1 - red legged hermit
4- Astrea
4 - trochus
5 - nassarius

1 - cerith

[I'm Batman]

Speaking of nitrates and phosphates I just ordered brightwell... let’s see...

[mcarroll]

On 11/5/2020 at 4:17 PM, Llorgon said:

So for cuc, from what I can see:
2 - turbo
1 - red legged hermit
4- Astrea
4 - trochus
5 - nassarius

1 - cerith

The nassarius and hermit are mostly or totally scavengers, not herbivores.  Probably not necessary.  Personally, I wouldn't add more than 1 of each....or maybe even zero.

 

Turbos, Astreas, Trochus and Certih and all great.

 

Turbos get REALLY big.  Trochus and Astrea can both get fairly big too.  Cerith usually get at most 1" or so.

 

I can't recall what your current cleanup crew is that you're adding onto, so just consider that you want to be pretty moderate with the additions....overstocking herbivores can lead to a cascade of die-offs as snails starve out....usually seems like from biggest on down.

 

So if this list is pretty much going to be the only CUC in the tank and the tank is pretty good sized, then the herbivores look OK.

 

If it's a smaller tank or if there are already some herbivorous snails in there, consider adding about 1/3-1/4 that amount of snails or less at any given time.  Ideally buying locally would enable you to add 1 or 2 snails at a time and allow a few weeks in between additions to see if you need another 1 or 2.  Shipping probably makes that kind of plan infeasible for online ordering, so just be careful and mindful.  Maybe see if you can split that order with someone...or a few someones...so the shipping cost is less significant?

 

 

[Llorgon]

On 11/10/2020 at 10:29 PM, mcarroll said:

The nassarius and hermit are mostly or totally scavengers, not herbivores.  Probably not necessary.  Personally, I wouldn't add more than 1 of each....or maybe even zero.

 

Turbos, Astreas, Trochus and Certih and all great.

 

Turbos get REALLY big.  Trochus and Astrea can both get fairly big too.  Cerith usually get at most 1" or so.

 

I can't recall what your current cleanup crew is that you're adding onto, so just consider that you want to be pretty moderate with the additions....overstocking herbivores can lead to a cascade of die-offs as snails starve out....usually seems like from biggest on down.

 

So if this list is pretty much going to be the only CUC in the tank and the tank is pretty good sized, then the herbivores look OK.

 

If it's a smaller tank or if there are already some herbivorous snails in there, consider adding about 1/3-1/4 that amount of snails or less at any given time.  Ideally buying locally would enable you to add 1 or 2 snails at a time and allow a few weeks in between additions to see if you need another 1 or 2.  Shipping probably makes that kind of plan infeasible for online ordering, so just be careful and mindful.  Maybe see if you can split that order with someone...or a few someones...so the shipping cost is less significant?

 

 

The turbos are down to 1 now. I think the ones I got were the colder water ones 😞

 

The list above is the current cuc I have in the 25 gallon.

1 - turbo
1 - red legged hermit
4- Astrea
4 - trochus
5 - nassarius

1 - cerith

 

I will try and focus on getting some more astrea, trochs and cerith.

 

I'm making progress on the algae on the back wall, but still not so much on rocks/coral bases.

 

Almost completely lost 2 hammer heads, the 3rd is doing well. The frogspawn is looking pretty sad and mostly closed up/arms are not colouring up well. Ducan is closed up as usual.

 

Acans, rock flower anemone and jedi mind trick are looking good.

 

I got my nutrients up. Maybe a bit too much. Nitrate is around 10ppm and phosphate got up to 0.6... It was sticking at zero even after dosing so I added some to the ATO water and it seems to have worked too well.

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, Llorgon said:

The turbos are down to 1 now. I think the ones I got were the colder water ones 😞

 

The list above is the current cuc I have in the 25 gallon.

1 - turbo
1 - red legged hermit
4- Astrea
4 - trochus
5 - nassarius

1 - cerith

 

I will try and focus on getting some more astrea, trochs and cerith.

 

I'm making progress on the algae on the back wall, but still not so much on rocks/coral bases.

 

Almost completely lost 2 hammer heads, the 3rd is doing well. The frogspawn is looking pretty sad and mostly closed up/arms are not colouring up well. Ducan is closed up as usual.

 

Acans, rock flower anemone and jedi mind trick are looking good.

 

I got my nutrients up. Maybe a bit too much. Nitrate is around 10ppm and phosphate got up to 0.6... It was sticking at zero even after dosing so I added some to the ATO water and it seems to have worked too well.

Every time I get turbo's they last a couple of weeks then die. 

 

Trochus and spiny star astrea are great cleaners, they last a long time in my tanks.

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, Llorgon said:

The turbos are down to 1 now. I think the ones I got were the colder water ones 😞

Nah.

 

Big snails have a big appetite.  The ones with the biggest appetite are generally the first to starve out.

 

Seems strange to hear until you think about it, but there was basically nothing for them to eat....virtually all the algae in the tank looks like mature stands of algae....snails can't deal with that at all.  Snails can only manage algae nubbins – new growth.  (They have no teeth, only a tongue.)

 

Smaller snails can out compete bigger snails too, such as by fitting farther into more crevices...means they can access a higher number of potential feeding sites.

 

It's also easier to overstock turbos because they can get so big.  Just for comparison, a small Turbo starts off equivalent to probably 6 or 8 Cerith snails.....for a grown turbo (golfball to tennis ball size) the comparison would be more like 10 or 14 (or more) Ceriths.  THAT'S A BIG APPETITE!

 

In a small tank I'd really kinda hesitate to use Turbos...especially if Astreas and Trochus are in good supply.  Just be very aware of that size potential if you do.  

[Llorgon]

On 11/12/2020 at 2:38 PM, mcarroll said:

Nah.

 

Big snails have a big appetite.  The ones with the biggest appetite are generally the first to starve out.

 

Seems strange to hear until you think about it, but there was basically nothing for them to eat....virtually all the algae in the tank looks like mature stands of algae....snails can't deal with that at all.  Snails can only manage algae nubbins – new growth.  (They have no teeth, only a tongue.)

 

Smaller snails can out compete bigger snails too, such as by fitting farther into more crevices...means they can access a higher number of potential feeding sites.

 

It's also easier to overstock turbos because they can get so big.  Just for comparison, a small Turbo starts off equivalent to probably 6 or 8 Cerith snails.....for a grown turbo (golfball to tennis ball size) the comparison would be more like 10 or 14 (or more) Ceriths.  THAT'S A BIG APPETITE!

 

In a small tank I'd really kinda hesitate to use Turbos...especially if Astreas and Trochus are in good supply.  Just be very aware of that size potential if you do.  

Ok that makes sense. So not only do I have to have an appropriate number of snails to keep the gha from coming back I also need to have more new growth than old to sustain them.

 

Seems like a tall order right now.

 

As for the turbos, all the ones I had were about the size of a quarter. But I see what you're saying on how much they eat.

 

One thing I have noticed about the new piece of liverock I got was the algae seems to come and go on it. I had a section that was covered in what looked like gha on Monday, but by the weekend it was gone. Just an interesting note as my other piece of rock it grows on and never goes away.

[mcarroll]

21 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Seems like a tall order right now.

The more old algae you pluck, the more new "fresh" algae you make that the snails can then manage for you.  

 

So you're working the equation in the right direction. 👌

 

21 hours ago, Llorgon said:

One thing I have noticed about the new piece of liverock I got was the algae seems to come and go on it. I had a section that was covered in what looked like gha on Monday, but by the weekend it was gone. Just an interesting note as my other piece of rock it grows on and never goes away.

Good observation!  That's competition (all forms, direct and indirect) vs no competition.  

 

My guess is that, thanks to various microbial "factions" the live rock has almost no bare aragonite exposed, even where it may appear to the naked eye to be bare....whereas the dead rock was/is really bare of life.  

 

Aragonite binds phosphates just like GFO does, and hair algae "swarmers" germinate perfectly on it – even if the water has no phosphates in it – because their "rootlets" give them access to that bound phosphate on the aragonite's surface.

[Llorgon]

On 11/17/2020 at 11:16 AM, mcarroll said:

The more old algae you pluck, the more new "fresh" algae you make that the snails can then manage for you.  

 

So you're working the equation in the right direction. 👌

 

Good observation!  That's competition (all forms, direct and indirect) vs no competition.  

 

My guess is that, thanks to various microbial "factions" the live rock has almost no bare aragonite exposed, even where it may appear to the naked eye to be bare....whereas the dead rock was/is really bare of life.  

 

Aragonite binds phosphates just like GFO does, and hair algae "swarmers" germinate perfectly on it – even if the water has no phosphates in it – because their "rootlets" give them access to that bound phosphate on the aragonite's surface.

That makes sense. The algae on the new rock comes off super easily as well. Where as it really gets a grip on the other rock. I think I should just look for another piece of live rock.

 

It looks like I am making some headway on the algae problem. At least on the rock/back wall. Still real hard to get it off and keep it off the coral bases.

 

Here's some current shots of the tank. Down from 3 heads to 1 of my hammer coral and frogspawn is looking pretty sad.

[Llorgon]

Been keeping nutrients higher for a few weeks now and I haven't seen a huge increase in algae. Other than the film algae that grows on the glass. That has definitely picked up.

 

Still losing snails which is frustrating. I think I lost 2 more this week. I am getting a leg up on the mature algae on the rock which is nice. Now if only I could keep it off.

 

I'm not sure if I should be looking into getting more cuc or not. The last bunch hasn't been doing well for surviving. I wonder if I have something else going on as well?

 

As for corals. The one hammer head is doing great the other two still seem to be dying. The frogspawn still looks unhappy and pale. One head still has green tips the others are pretty pale. Acans doing well, jedi mind trick doing well and seeing slow growth, the favia I have had since Feb hasn't changed in size at all and of course my duncan that grew from one head to 6 from dec-march then closed up and hasn't opened up since then. Is of course still closed up.

 

The algae wouldn't bother me as much if the corals were doing well, but it gets demoralizing when theres both tons of algae and the corals aren't doing well.

 

Honestly I'm starting to setup my 75 gallon again and I am wondering if I should even bother with coral because I don't seem to have good luck with them. It's just frustrating!

[Llorgon]

On the plus side while doing my water change I noticed a bunch of places with coraline algae growth on the old piece of rock. So either adding that piece of liverock helped or taking a snail shell with coraline on it and rubbing it on the rock got things going.

[farkwar]

8 hours ago, Llorgon said:

The last bunch hasn't been doing well for surviving

Each one that dies

 

Just reincarnates into more algae

 

Except the jumpers of course

 

Can you imagine? As a snail approaches the waterline.  He can't decide if he's going to jump

 

All the snails in the tank are yelling,

"Don't do it!"

"You have a lot to live for"

"Don't give up"

 

And all the hermits are yelling,

"JUMP, JUMP, JUMP"

"DO IT"

[bouquetidealistic]

Hii...

I have tried the spot treating with peroxide. Works well, but there just got to be so many spots I couldn't keep up. Boiling RO/DI water also works great. Turns the algae white/light green colour and snails/hermits go nuts for it BRANCH HANGER - BRHANGERXXXX. But again, just became too much for those methods.

[mcarroll]

14 hours ago, Llorgon said:

The algae wouldn't bother me as much if the corals were doing well, but it gets demoralizing when theres both tons of algae and the corals aren't doing well.

You won't find them doing well right next to each other in the wild either....algae will generally outcompete corals when there is not herbivory to control it.

 

I think you're on the right track...nail the basics (make sure you aren't missing something).  I don't think there is a mystery problem.

 

14 hours ago, Llorgon said:

Honestly I'm starting to setup my 75 gallon again and I am wondering if I should even bother with coral because I don't seem to have good luck with them. It's just frustrating!

"One impossible mission at a time." -Me. 😉

 

IMO, get things stabilized here and focus on getting the current tank through this phase.  You will have a better base of experience to build the 75 on the longer you wait.  👍

[Llorgon]

On 11/22/2020 at 6:29 PM, farkwar said:

Each one that dies

 

Just reincarnates into more algae

 

Except the jumpers of course

 

Can you imagine? As a snail approaches the waterline.  He can't decide if he's going to jump

 

All the snails in the tank are yelling,

"Don't do it!"

"You have a lot to live for"

"Don't give up"

 

And all the hermits are yelling,

"JUMP, JUMP, JUMP"

"DO IT"

Haha I definitely laughed at that. I actually haven't had any jumpers.

On 11/22/2020 at 11:46 PM, bouquetidealistic said:

Hii...

I have tried the spot treating with peroxide. Works well, but there just got to be so many spots I couldn't keep up. Boiling RO/DI water also works great. Turns the algae white/light green colour and snails/hermits go nuts for it. But again, just became too much for those methods.

Tried both as well and found it works for small patches, but not larger ones.

On 11/23/2020 at 12:29 AM, mcarroll said:

You won't find them doing well right next to each other in the wild either....algae will generally outcompete corals when there is not herbivory to control it.

 

I think you're on the right track...nail the basics (make sure you aren't missing something).  I don't think there is a mystery problem.

 

"One impossible mission at a time." -Me. 😉

 

IMO, get things stabilized here and focus on getting the current tank through this phase.  You will have a better base of experience to build the 75 on the longer you wait.  👍

I feel like I am missing something. Params seem to be in check now and yet corals still aren't showing any improvement.

 

I don't start work on the new tank until Christmas when I took a week off. Hopefully things start to pickup by then. My original plan for this tank was to get it running successfully and build off that for the 75 gallon. So far it hasn't worked out.

[Llorgon]

Tested my water today. Nitrate 10ppm, phosphate 0.37ppm. haven't dosed any nitrate or phosphate in a couple weeks.

 

Corals are doing about the same. Definitely lost 2 of the 3 hammer coral heads. Acans and rock flower anemone are the only corals that have been doing well.

 

I'm down to 4 snails. 1 turbo, 1 trochus and 2 cerith. The turbo seems useless. Stays at the water line no matter where I move it.

 

I have been struggling to keep algae off the coral bases also started to have growth on the sand.

 

I'm going to see if I can get a couple trochus snails locally and see if they will stay alive. 

[mcarroll]

It's possible that your current snails were too starved already and are going to need time to make a comeback IF they make a comeback.  I would be bracing the tank with new smaller snails....and keep up the manual removal as often as you can....daily at least is ideal.

[Llorgon]

On 11/30/2020 at 1:38 AM, mcarroll said:

It's possible that your current snails were too starved already and are going to need time to make a comeback IF they make a comeback.  I would be bracing the tank with new smaller snails....and keep up the manual removal as often as you can....daily at least is ideal.

Been a busy week. More snails will unfortunately have to wait until after the holidays. I got a bit carried away with the gift buying 😞 On the plus side I have 2 turbos! another one just showed up on the glass on the weekend. I guess it was just wear I couldn't see it. Once I pay off this cc I will slowly add snails one or two at a time and see how they do.

As for an update on the tank, still having gha growth, but I don't think as much. I have been getting a crazy amount of film algae on the glass though. Like can't see in after 4 days amount. The gha that shows up on the sand isn't coming back as much week after week. Still getting it on the rocks and back wall, but it comes off way easier than it used to. That seems odd to me since nutrients are higher now than when it was impossible to pull off the rocks.

 

As for the corals, still struggling to keep the gha off the bases of the hammer and frogspawn. Anyone have tips on that? I can only get so much with my fingers.
Acans are looking big and doing well. Rock flower anemone is also doing well. The few zoas that came on the new piece of liverock are opening up and there might even be some new heads popping up. My favia actually looks like it has new growth! which is surprising since it hasn't changed in size since I got it almost a year ago now. Jedi mind trick has really coloured up. Actually quite happy with it. The sole remaining head of the hammer coral is doing well, the other two are 100% gone. Frogspawn is looking sad which makes me sad.

[Llorgon]

Finally getting ahead on the gha. Still have some patches, but it no longer looks like it's taking over! I'm starting to see patches of cyano on the piece of live rock I added. I wonder if I need to up the flow?

 

Frogspawn is still struggling and I'm having a hard time getting the gha off of it. I do have a couple of new heads starting on it. But the main big ones are very unhappy.

 

Hammer coral has less gha on the base and the remaining head is doing well.

 

Here is what the tank is looking like today.

[Llorgon]

Bit of an update. Still have some gha, but it's now at manageable levels. I could probably start spot treating most places now.

 

Some corals are still struggling. Mainly the duncan continues to not want to open up and the frogspawn is still looking pretty bad, but I do see some small new heads popping up in places.

 

For the first time in quite awhile I feel like I could add corals to the tank and have them survive.

 

I guess my next focus would be trying to get my duncan and frogspawn back to looking happy and healthy.

[mcarroll]

On 11/28/2020 at 7:31 PM, Llorgon said:

Tested my water today. Nitrate 10ppm, phosphate 0.37ppm. haven't dosed any nitrate or phosphate in a couple weeks.

How have levels been since then?

 

5 hours ago, Llorgon said:

I could probably start spot treating most places now.

Spot treatment with TLC I hope?  😁  

 

Don't give up or change tactics so close "the end".  Or don't change horses in the middle of a stream as the saying goes. 🏇

 

Continue removing by hand removing any algae that grows too long for your snails.

 

🙇‍♂️🤏🌿🤌🗑

 

If that keeps happening, then you just need to add one, or maybe a few more, snails to hold the ground you've cleaned. 👍

🐌 🐌🐌

[Llorgon]

I actually hadn't tested nitrates or phosphates in awhile. I just left things as they were. Did testing today and nitrates are 0.50ppm and phosphates are 0.107ppm. So it looks like I might need to dose some nitrates so they aren't so low.

 

I actually tried spot treating with some boil RO/DI water. Turns the gha white and the hermits love it. But I see your point. Better to just keep doing what I have been doing as it actually seems to be working.

 

I do need to add more snails. From the looks of it I am down to 1 hermit and 1 turbo 😞

 

I did pickup some new corals for the first time in forever. Nothing special, just some cheap acans and trying my hand at a lobo. Acans seem to be the one thing I can keep alive so I figured it was a safe bet. A not so safe addition was a mystic monti. The jedi mind trick is doing well so I am hoping it will do well as well. They came today so still a little closed up, but nothing DOA which is good.