Darwin Clowns rarer than the orange ones?

[Zionas]

Hi all, are the Darwin Clowns much rarer than the regular orange ones? Do they tend to be at the same sizes or do they usually come in a bit larger for you? Will they readily pair with the normal orange one?

[Tired]

Darwin clownfish are a specifically bred morph of clownfish. Essentially, some clownfish breeder out there bred slightly unusual orange ones until they made super unusual ones. They're more unusual, yes, and typically a bit more expensive. The size you'll get them depends on the breeder, since pretty much all ocellaris clownfish in the hobby come from breeders. They're the same species as the orange one, so, yes, they should pair with an orange. You can pretty much mix-and-match different morphs of ocellaris clowns.

 

(edit: my bad, didn't know they're a separate thing. Thought that was another of the 5 million designer clownfish.)

[Zionas]

I see. Would you say they’re rare?

[Clown79]

1 minute ago, Zionas said:

I see. Would you say they’re rare?

No not rare. 

[Tamberav]

24 minutes ago, Zionas said:

I see. Would you say they’re rare?

Depends.... If you mean a true darwin or a black occy....getting one that is genetically pure is rare as many fish labeled as darwin's are not pure. You would need to find one from a reputable breeder that can trace lines to wild type fish.

 

More info here and a link to coral magazine:

 

http://miniwaters.fish/shop/saltwater-marine-live/fish-saltwater-live/clownfish/amphiprion-sp-darwin-black-clownfish-true-black-ocellaris/

[RedCrow]

49 minutes ago, Tired said:

Darwin clownfish are a specifically bred morph of clownfish. Essentially, some clownfish breeder out there bred slightly unusual orange ones until they made super unusual ones.

This is not correct. They’re a naturally occurring morph found in and around Darwin, Australia (that’s where they get their name). The jury is still out as to whether they’re a morph of A ocellaris, or if they are a separate species. I’m of the opinion that they should be treated as their own species until it is confirmed whether or not they are. 
 

OP: yes, you can pair any Ocellaris, Darwin, or Percula with each other with no issues. 

[Zionas]

9 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Depends.... If you mean a true darwin or a black occy....getting one that is genetically pure is rare as many fish labeled as darwin's are not pure. You would need to find one from a reputable breeder that can trace lines to wild type fish.

 

More info here and a link to coral magazine:

 

http://miniwaters.fish/shop/saltwater-marine-live/fish-saltwater-live/clownfish/amphiprion-sp-darwin-black-clownfish-true-black-ocellaris/

Yeah I’ve heard about them actually being a separate species. I heard there are the true Darwin Clowns which are rare and the more common Black and White Clownfish. Is there a difference between the two? Are the more commonly seen Black n Whites an artificially propagated / created breed? 

[RedCrow]

33 minutes ago, Zionas said:

Yeah I’ve heard about them actually being a separate species. I heard there are the true Darwin Clowns which are rare and the more common Black and White Clownfish. Is there a difference between the two? Are the more commonly seen Black n Whites an artificially propagated / created breed? 

A true Darwin would be either a wild caught fish (virtually impossible to obtain), or one that could be proven to be the descendants of wild caught fish. The only person I know who was ever selling those was Matt Pedersen at miniwaters (check out the link, Matt has an extremely in-depth article on the issue). 

 A “black ocellaris” is likely at least part Darwin, but has been crossed so many times with designer ocellaris that most, of not all, are mutts at this point. 

[Zionas]

19 minutes ago, RedCrow said:

A true Darwin would be either a wild caught fish (virtually impossible to obtain), or one that could be proven to be the descendants of wild caught fish. The only person I know who was ever selling those was Matt Pedersen at miniwaters (check out the link, Matt has an extremely in-depth article on the issue). 

 A “black ocellaris” is likely at least part Darwin, but has been crossed so many times with designer ocellaris that most, of not all, are mutts at this point. 

Alright, thanks for telling me. What are the specific breeds of “designer Ocellaris” used in the process of breeding the Black Ocellaris? Basically the ones in my pics.

[RedCrow]

5 minutes ago, Zionas said:

Alright, thanks for telling me. What are the specific breeds of “designer Ocellaris” used in the process of breeding the Black Ocellaris? Basically the ones in my pics.

Matt goes into great detail about that in the article I linked. You have to scroll a bit to read the whole thing. (It looks like the bottoms of the page, but then there’s 10+ paragraphs after that) 

[Zionas]

I’ve read the article. So what he’s saying is that the Black and White Ocellaris we see are mostly just the failed results of breeding Black Snowflakes (I’m not a fan of designer breeds at all) rather than being derived directly from wild Darwin stock?

 

   My LFS gets in the Black Ocellaris but usually at larger sizes than the orange ones. If these black ones aren’t really naturally occurring I’d probably just stick to the orange ones that occur naturally and are cheaper. One drop rule lol.

[RedCrow]

It’s not necessarily “failed”. The designer traits are recessive, so typically breeding designer x designer yields only about 25% designer offspring. Which leaves you with 75% wild type fish. Most of the black clowns on the market are the result of this. 

 Even the mutts are beautiful fish imo. And they still possibly could be purebred, if Darwins just turn out to be a unique color if ocellaris. Unless you’re intending to breed the fish for the sake of breeding Darwins, a black and white ocellaris is an attractive and perfectly healthy fish 

[Zionas]

23 minutes ago, RedCrow said:

It’s not necessarily “failed”. The designer traits are recessive, so typically breeding designer x designer yields only about 25% designer offspring. Which leaves you with 75% wild type fish. Most of the black clowns on the market are the result of this. 

 Even the mutts are beautiful fish imo. And they still possibly could be purebred, if Darwins just turn out to be a unique color if ocellaris. Unless you’re intending to breed the fish for the sake of breeding Darwins, a black and white ocellaris is an attractive and perfectly healthy fish 

This is VERY interesting to know! Guess I’d love a black one after all. 

I might get into breeding them if I have my own place someday with room for more tanks.

[Tired]

If you're worried about health with the designer clowns, they should be pretty healthy. Responsible breeders generally maintain a fairly wide gene pool. Breeding them for new colors doesn't do them any harm, and you don't really see them with the severely exaggerated features that some other fish (fancy goldfish, bettas, balloon belly mollies) wind up. The most questionable I've seen are 'longtail' clowns, and their fins are still a decent length, so they seem to move just fine. I don't believe any of the occy clowns you can buy should have any severe genetic issues from inbreeding, etc. You'd be more likely to run into problems with somebody's cheap batch of plain ol' orange ones, than from a reputable breeder of different morphs. 

[Zionas]

2 hours ago, Tired said:

If you're worried about health with the designer clowns, they should be pretty healthy. Responsible breeders generally maintain a fairly wide gene pool. Breeding them for new colors doesn't do them any harm, and you don't really see them with the severely exaggerated features that some other fish (fancy goldfish, bettas, balloon belly mollies) wind up. The most questionable I've seen are 'longtail' clowns, and their fins are still a decent length, so they seem to move just fine. I don't believe any of the occy clowns you can buy should have any severe genetic issues from inbreeding, etc. You'd be more likely to run into problems with somebody's cheap batch of plain ol' orange ones, than from a reputable breeder of different morphs. 

Yeah I’m aware pretty much all of them are captive bred these days. I meant to say I don’t like any of the designer varieties and would rather stick to something that’s more frequently naturally occurring or the Black and White which is derived at least from the Darwin.

 

    I’m really not into anything like the Snowflakes, Gladiators or any of those varieties and I honestly don’t feel it should be encouraged lol. 

[Zionas]

The Black and White Ocellaris at my LFS come in no smaller than 1.5-2” it seems. The orange ones get as small as slightly under / about an inch. For the Black and White or any Ocellaris would I be at risk of buying an old fish (they’re all Captive bred) if it’s sold at 1.5”-2.5”?

[RedCrow]

Do you have another clown already? If you get the larger black and the smaller orange, the black will become female and they’ll sort it all out. 

 If age is your concern, don’t worry about it. At 1.5-2 inches, the fish is likely 18 months to 2 years old. Clownfish regularly live 15-20 years, so they’ll have a while to go 

[Zionas]

9 minutes ago, RedCrow said:

Do you have another clown already? If you get the larger black and the smaller orange, the black will become female and they’ll sort it all out. 

 If age is your concern, don’t worry about it. At 1.5-2 inches, the fish is likely 18 months to 2 years old. Clownfish regularly live 15-20 years, so they’ll have a while to go 

Yeah I know that the black one will become the female. I’m currently still planning my tank, trapped abroad due to my country’s coronavirus restrictions. I’m an expat.

 

    That’s pretty reassuring, guess I’ll treat it as a fish bought from another reefer. I’ve read numerous accounts of Clowns living for over 16-17 years, several for over 20.