Monti cap frags are fading

[paulsz]

Hi all,

 

I bought two Monti cap frags (red monti and Christmas/Seasons greetings monti) last week Tuesday. I've put them on the bottom of the tank to light acclimate. Since then, they've been slowly turning paler every day.

 

Tank is as such:

- 4 months old fluval evo 13.5

- AI prime HD

- alk 8.5-9

- cal 450

- mag 1440

- nitrates 2.5-5 (trying to raise it a little. To 10)

- Phosphates 0.05 ( it did drop to 0 last week though for about 3 days).

 

They started fading on the second day. I thought it was a light issue so I turned down the lights. The red monti was getting about 100 par, and the season's greetings about 70 par. Ive since out my ai prime HD in acclimation mode (50% start and ramping up for 3 weeks).

 

Not sure what could be the issue. Maybe the fact that my phosphates dropped? I doubt the light is too strong at the moment...

 

Before (last Tuesday) 

 

 

 

After (this past Sunday) 

[paulsz]

Last night, i saw my yellow clown goby sitting on the season's greetings frag. Could that be causing stress, given it's a new frag and probably is already stressed? 

[Tired]

A fish sitting on it won't be causing it to fade like that. They kinda look like they're bleaching. 

 

Is it possible you have ammonia or nitrites? 

 

What other corals do you have, and how are those doing? 

[paulsz]

28 minutes ago, Tired said:

A fish sitting on it won't be causing it to fade like that. They kinda look like they're bleaching. 

 

Is it possible you have ammonia or nitrites? 

 

What other corals do you have, and how are those doing? 

I have easy softies. Kenya tree, superman discosoma mushrooms, GSP and blue symposium. They all open up except the blue sympodium. The mushroom creates babies non stop. There's two big muhsrooms and I get a baby from each every week. 

The GSP and Kenya tree open up. They do close for a day or two every so often when irritated though (which I heard was normal). The blue sympodium has been closing up every since I added pods. It opens up about halfway, but the fish always seem to be picking something around it (pods or algae if i had to guess) and knock into it and then it closes up. 

[mcarroll]

On 8/11/2020 at 9:20 AM, paulsz said:

4 months old [tank]

Makes dependency on dissolved nutrients higher.

 

On 8/11/2020 at 9:20 AM, paulsz said:

alk 8.5-9

- cal 450

- mag 1440

Will allow high coral growth rates.  (Good.)

 

On 8/11/2020 at 9:20 AM, paulsz said:

- nitrates 2.5-5 (trying to raise it a little. To 10)

- Phosphates 0.05 ( it did drop to 0 last week though for about 3 days).

This is a problem for corals with a high growth rate....especially PO4.  The dip to zero isn't great, but 0.05 is barely above the minimum theoretically required....if the frags aren't in ideal conditions flow-wise, then that matters even more.

 

If you think the tank where the frags came from had less light that your tank, then turning down your lights (or using acclimation mode) might make sense.  You have to know the levels they have and the levels you have though....can't guess.

 

Worry about adequate flow and adequate nutrient levels and IMO the issues will disappear.  Don't worry about light if your lighting setup seems correct and your other corals are happy.  

 

14 hours ago, paulsz said:

Last night, i saw my yellow clown goby sitting on the season's greetings frag. Could that be causing stress, given it's a new frag and probably is already stressed?

Yes.  It is stressful and counts toward the coral's overall stress level.  Once nutrient and flow issues are taken care of it should be much less of a worry though.

 

 

[paulsz]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If you think the tank where the frags came from had less light that your tank, then turning down your lights (or using acclimation mode) might make sense.  You have to know the levels they have and the levels you have though....can't guess

The LFS had said they were getting about 150 PAR

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

The dip to zero isn't great, but 0.05 is barely above the minimum theoretically required.

i dose 0.3ppm daily. It was staying at 0.1-0.12 for a couple of weeks but then dipped again. I will test more frequently and correct as needed.

[mcarroll]

12 hours ago, paulsz said:

The LFS had said they were getting about 150 PAR

On 8/11/2020 at 9:20 AM, paulsz said:

The red monti was getting about 100 par, and the season's greetings about 70 par. Ive since out my ai prime HD in acclimation mode (50% start and ramping up for 3 weeks).

 

If anything they might even be suffering from under lighting at this point....but fix the tank's phosphate levels before ramping them back up.  Even 100 PAR was a significant reduction from 150 at the shop.

 

 

[Pslreefer]

The po4 at zero for several days is most likely this issue. Regardless of montis being easy, they are highly susceptible to nutrient swings especially when po4 bottoms out. 

[paulsz]

Okay I'm increasing my po4 dosing. Ive now been dosing 0.4ppm daily for last 3 days. Will test today at noon before the next dose.

[seabass]

Phosphate is important, just like any other parameter.  But be careful when dosing anything.  With rare exception (like an ULNS which has its own special requirements), you want phosphate to be detectable, but not excessive.  "If a little is good, then more is better" is typically a dangerous strategy for reef keeping.  Try to keep phosphate detectable (with a decent low range test kit) and stable, but not high (which could lead to excessive algae growth, especially in a newer reef tank).

[paulsz]

1 minute ago, seabass said:

Phosphate is important, just like any other parameter.  But be careful when dosing anything.  With rare exception (like an ULNS which has its own special requirements), you want phosphate to be detectable, but not excessive.  "If a little is good, then more is better" is typically a dangerous strategy for reef keeping.  Try to keep phosphate detectable (with a decent low range test kit) and stable, but not high (which could lead to excessive algae growth, especially in a newer reef tank).

I used to dose 0.3ppm daily and it would keep me at 0.1-0.12 24 hours later. Then i lowered the dose to 0.25ppm and it went down to 0 within 24 hours. So i brought the dosing back up to 0.3ppm and this past week i was getting 0.02ppm readings 24 hours later. Which is why i've increased it once again 0.4ppm. I am getting plenty (and i mean plenty) of algae, but i just don't know what else to do without it bottoming out...

[seabass]

That's an impressive amount of inorganic phosphate loss.  Phosphate will also bind to calcium based rock and sand (and potentially leach out later on), but I wouldn't think that's all that's happening.  I can't say exactly what's utilizing all that phosphate (but obviously anything, which is photosynthetic, will use it).

 

I think trying to keep it detectable (like you are) is a sound strategy.  But ideally, you'd want to would keep it more stable.  About the only way I can think of to do that would be with smaller, more continuous doses (like possible from using a dosing pump).  Continue to monitor levels when dosing, you don't want to spike phosphate should its use be reduced.

[seabass]

Another thought is to reduce unwanted photosynthetic algae (and cyano).  These could be utilizing the phosphate and you would just be supplying fuel for the bloom.  Increasing herbivorous snails and manually removing algae might help reduce the overall phosphate consumption.

[paulsz]

1 minute ago, seabass said:

Another thought is to reduce unwanted photosynthetic algae (and cyano).  These could be utilizing the phosphate and you would just be supplying fuel for the bloom.  Increasing herbivorous snails and manually removing algae might help reduce the overall phosphate consumption.

I am dealing with dinos. It's not a crazy amount and it is amphidinium (not very toxic). Some snails are doing work on the algae but i'll be manually removing it as well this weekend. I'll try to set up my doser to shoot about 0.1ppm 4 times daily rather than 0.4ppm at once.

[mcarroll]

It takes a pretty incredible amount of N and P for bacteria to break down the armor plating (theca) on the dino's after they die/as the bloom proceeds.

 

If you're familiar with composting, their theca apparently have a carbon to nitrogen ratio of like 1000:1.   More than sawdust, leaves or newpaper.

 

Check out this article from back in 2000: 

The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate

 

For the record, this is a perfect example of why algae blooms are so harmful in the wild....not only is there nobody around to remediate nutrient levels as you have been in your tank, but oxygen deprivation happens along with nutrient deprivation, quite literally choking the life out of just about everything else in the water.

 

(It's a great survival strategy for the dino's.....however, left unchecked, just about everything else dies.)

 

So it's very debatable whether po4 can be harmful at all, in any way, or any circumstance.  But in a tank that has dino's (or HAD dino's) there is definitely no danger from an overdose.  Plenty of folks have had po4 levels up to 1.0 or even 2.0 without issues....0.1 or 0.2 (an order of magnitude less) isn't even worth worry.  The only danger, with respect to po4, is from running out....which is dangerously possible in this scenario.  👍

 

I'm not exaggerating when I tell folks in your position (with dino's) to control po4 levels with the same vigor that you'd maintain alkalinity in a stony coral tank:

 

Test enough to determine the actual usage rate (which can seem like a lot)

 

Then keep your po4 level nailed at the healthy level with just enough continued testing to be sure about it.

 

Once the bloom subsides, your po4 demand should drop significantly.

[paulsz]

10 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Then keep your po4 level nailed at the healthy level with just enough continued testing to be sure about it.

 

I test twice a week. I just tested and nitrates are 10+ and the phosphate are at .126. Would you say those are healthy levels?

[Cflo]

May be worth checking your potassium. Montis will look washed out if K is low.