Cleaner shrimp is acting weird...

[Tired]

You should definitely not have fish loose in your tank while moving rocks, you'll smush them. Be sure to put an airstone in there so they get enough oxygen. And put a couple of disposable plastic cups in, sideways, for them to hide in. Don't use reusable cups, those have soap traces. 

 

If you can, I think you should try to keep the main structure as it is, and just build caves around it. Remember that the shrimp would like an overhang he can comfortably fit under. The gramma needs a cave, and the clownfish should at least have a spot, that's not either of those structures, that he can dart into if he's scared.

[Beginnerreeftanker]

Ok yeah hopefully I won’t have to move everything.  I might move just one of the big rocks in the middle, but I love how it looks right now.  I’ll probably get some dry rock cave structures and some cool overhang rocks, maybe some kind of dry shelf rock too.  Thanks!  

I’ll move all the cuc too because I don’t want that to be smooshed.  Do you think the fish will fight if they’re in a 5 gallon bucket?

[TerraIncognita]

25 minutes ago, Beginnerreeftanker said:

I’m going to the store right now to get some more dry rock to add, and I’m going to rearrange the whole rock work already.  I’m also going to get a isolation box right now too for that as well, I’ll put him in right away. While I’m rearranging all the rocks, should I put my fish into a bucket or something to keep them safe?  Also, does anyone have any ideas on how to rearrange everything?

Okay ready here’s what you do.

ive done it once before. It’s a bitch. But trust me.

 

you will need. 
 

hammer, chisel, rock glue, 2 buckets, tubS or other tanks and a pump or air stone at least I’d also add a heater.

 

Empty 60% of your tank water into one tub Take all your fish and rocks cape and put it in the bucket obviously be careful.

 

slowly remove your corals from the rock and make sure they’re in the bucket. Most likely even though it’s a small space your gramma will be so confused for 30 minutes he’ll be spending more time trying to figure out his environment than bullying anyone.
 

take the other 40% of water into the 2nd bucket.

 

take the rock and a chisel, and break it in half.

 

looks like that’s just 1 giant rock.

 

id break it into a few pieces.

don’t let the rock be out of water for more than 30 minutes, put them in the 2nd bucket as you work on them.

 

glue them together and arrange them as you see fit newly.

 

add back 40% of NEW saltwater mix.

 

add fish back and concurrent add 60% if existing water back that fish were in.

 

top off as needed.

the reason I suggest such a large amount of water change is as you break the rock you will see and smell all kinda of things.

 

i gurantee you will be killing of a few specimens.

 

once you add it all back to the tank that will surely cause a small spike in ammonia but nothing you should worry about.

 

the big water change and BB will squickly balance that out.

 

goodluck
 

 

[Tired]

If they're only in the bucket briefly, and have spaces to hide in, they'll probably be too busy being confused and scared to fight. I would suggest keeping the shrimp in a separate container. The cleanup crew can go wherever. 

 

Be sure you confirm with the LFS that the rock you're buying is safe to go in the tank immediately, and watch out for parameter spikes. Dry rock can have nutrients in it, and moving things around stirs up the sandbed. You should always monitor parameters closely for a few days after rearranging, and should expect to do at least 1 big water change at some point after everything is put back into the tank. A water change during the rearranging can only help so much.

 

You can rearrange the existing rock as explained above, but I think you should be all right just adding new spaces. 

[Cannedfish]

It may be just me, but it seems like tearing the entire tank apart might be a bit overkill? 

[Beginnerreeftanker]

23 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

Okay ready here’s what you do.

ive done it once before. It’s a bitch. But trust me.

 

you will need. 
 

hammer, chisel, rock glue, 2 buckets, tubS or other tanks and a pump or air stone at least I’d also add a heater.

 

Empty 60% of your tank water into one tub Take all your fish and rocks cape and put it in the bucket obviously be careful.

 

slowly remove your corals from the rock and make sure they’re in the bucket. Most likely even though it’s a small space your gramma will be so confused for 30 minutes he’ll be spending more time trying to figure out his environment than bullying anyone.
 

take the other 40% of water into the 2nd bucket.

 

take the rock and a chisel, and break it in half.

 

looks like that’s just 1 giant rock.

 

id break it into a few pieces.

don’t let the rock be out of water for more than 30 minutes, put them in the 2nd bucket as you work on them.

 

glue them together and arrange them as you see fit newly.

 

add back 40% of NEW saltwater mix.

 

add fish back and concurrent add 60% if existing water back that fish were in.

 

top off as needed.

the reason I suggest such a large amount of water change is as you break the rock you will see and smell all kinda of things.

 

i gurantee you will be killing of a few specimens.

 

once you add it all back to the tank that will surely cause a small spike in ammonia but nothing you should worry about.

 

the big water change and BB will squickly balance that out.

 

goodluck
 

 

Just curious, why do you think I should break the rock in half?  I’m definitely going to get some dry rock, I just don’t know if I need to break it.  I’m definitely open to it though to create some cool aquascape.  Thanks. 

[TerraIncognita]

Just now, Cannedfish said:

It may be just me, but it seems like tearing the entire tank apart might be a bit overkill? 

Not if he wants to keep all the fish he has in that 16g no.

 

if he wants to give them up or let them die. Sure. What would you do?

[Beginnerreeftanker]

1 minute ago, TerraIncognita said:

Not if he wants to keep all the fish he has in that 16g no.

 

if he wants to give them up or let them die. Sure. What would you do?

What’s does breaking up the rock exactly do?  Add more space and caves?  

Not trying to be rude, just wondering because I’m very new

 

[TerraIncognita]

3 minutes ago, Beginnerreeftanker said:

What’s does breaking up the rock exactly do?  Add more space and caves?  

Not trying to be rude, just wondering because I’m very new

 

Oh yeah I mean you don’t have to but to me that looks like 1 big rock in the middle maybe I’m wrong.

 

this way you don’t have to but any more rock.

 

introducing a large quantity of new rock I don’t think is ever a good idea. Tired suggests new rock. I don’t. Maybe a few pieces but not more than a lb or 2 I have no idea the potential implications that could have on your parameters.

 

your tank seems to JUST maturing.

 

thats just my own opinions

[Beginnerreeftanker]

2 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

Oh yeah I mean you don’t have to but to me that looks like 1 big rock in the middle maybe I’m wrong.

 

this way you don’t have to but any more rock.

 

introducing a large quantity of new rock I don’t think is ever a good idea. Tired suggests new rock. I don’t. Maybe a few pieces but not more than a lb or 2 I have no idea the potential implications that could have on your parameters.

 

your tank seems to JUST maturing.

 

thats just my own opinions

Ok yes it’s a big middle rock.  This makes a lot of sense, I might do a bit of both 👌 thanks everyone I’ll put it a pic when done! 

[Cannedfish]

5 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

Not if he wants to keep all the fish he has in that 16g no.

 

if he wants to give them up or let them die. Sure. What would you do?

If I read the OP's threads correctly, the shrimp was added less than a week ago. I'm certainly not an expert in any realm of imagination, but it seems like taking all the livestock out of a tank, transferring them to separate containers, removing the coral, taking out the rocks, breaking and gluing them back together, disturbing the sand bed, re-adding them to the tank, and doing a massive water change (assuming the WC is going to be done using RODI, which the OP has not always used in the past) may be a bit more risky, not only, to a young system but also to a shrimp that has most likely not fully adjusted to the tank. Not to mention the stress and potential for injury this could have on literally everything else in the tank (or for than matter the risk of damaging the tank itself). Furthermore, you can't actually be sure that bullying is the cause of the shrimp's "condition." It could be stress, water parameters, etc, or that the change in rock work will solve whatever issue it has. This course of action seems like cutting off one's hand to fix a hang nail. But who knows, maybe it's the same as giving up and letting them die. 

[TerraIncognita]

1 minute ago, Cannedfish said:

If I read the OP's threads correctly, the shrimp was added less than a week ago. I'm certainly not an expert in any realm of imagination, but it seems like taking all the livestock out of a tank, transferring them to separate containers, removing the coral, taking out the rocks, breaking and gluing them back together, disturbing the sand bed, re-adding them to the tank, and doing a massive water change (assuming the WC is going to be done using RODI, which the OP has not always used in the past) may be a bit more risky, not only, to a young system but also to a shrimp that has most likely not fully adjusted to the tank. Not to mention the stress and potential for injury this could have on literally everything else in the tank (or for than matter the risk of damaging the tank itself). Furthermore, you can't actually be sure that bullying is the cause of the shrimp's "condition." It could be stress, water parameters, etc, or that the change in rock work will solve whatever issue it has. This course of action seems like cutting off one's hand to fix a hang nail. But who knows, maybe it's the same as giving up and letting them die. 

Those are all 100% valid points.

 

and agreed.

 

overall there’s probably more than just 1 thing wrong with this set up.

 

but regardless of water params going back a step, his aquas cape is set up to have this as a Constant problem.

 

so really what I’m trying to get him to do, is kind of go back to the start.

 

again maybe we’re all 100% wrong. But it just seems pretty apparent that his gramma is sitting smug as a bug in a rug. Meanwhile his other inhabitants look completely cowed.

 

worst case scenario in this scenario, the aquascape changes and in 2 or 3 days everyone is still upset.

if he does it how I said he won’t be causing a huge risk. 
 

why would it scientifically? If he has SO MUCH Detritus in his sand as so cause an ammonia spike that’s going to kill his fish anyway, like why are we even trying to help him. It’s already too far gone.

 

i highly doubt that’s a concern.

[Beginnerreeftanker]

55 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

Those are all 100% valid points.

 

and agreed.

 

overall there’s probably more than just 1 thing wrong with this set up.

 

but regardless of water params going back a step, his aquas cape is set up to have this as a Constant problem.

 

so really what I’m trying to get him to do, is kind of go back to the start.

 

again maybe we’re all 100% wrong. But it just seems pretty apparent that his gramma is sitting smug as a bug in a rug. Meanwhile his other inhabitants look completely cowed.

 

worst case scenario in this scenario, the aquascape changes and in 2 or 3 days everyone is still upset.

if he does it how I said he won’t be causing a huge risk. 
 

why would it scientifically? If he has SO MUCH Detritus in his sand as so cause an ammonia spike that’s going to kill his fish anyway, like why are we even trying to help him. It’s already too far gone.

 

i highly doubt that’s a concern.

Do you really think all my fish are going to die anyway?  I put it on a forum a little bit ago and they said the detritus and algae I have isn’t actually that bad

[Cannedfish]

2 hours ago, TerraIncognita said:

 

those are all 100% valid points.

 

and agreed.

 

overall there’s probably more than just 1 thing wrong with this set up.

 

but regardless of water params going back a step, his aquas cape is set up to have this as a Constant problem.

 

so really what I’m trying to get him to do, is kind of go back to the start.

 

again maybe we’re all 100% wrong. But it just seems pretty apparent that his gramma is sitting smug as a bug in a rug. Meanwhile his other inhabitants look completely cowed.

 

worst case scenario in this scenario, the aquascape changes and in 2 or 3 days everyone is still upset.

if he does it how I said he won’t be causing a huge risk. 
 

why would it scientifically? If he has SO MUCH Detritus in his sand as so cause an ammonia spike that’s going to kill his fish anyway, like why are we even trying to help him. It’s already too far gone.

 

i highly doubt that’s a concern.

 

The aquascape being changed and everyone being upset for 2 or 3 days is hardly the worst case scenario. Rather, there are several scenarios that are not only worse than the current situation but also worse than the "worst case scenario" that you outlined above (but is still far from the worst case scenario, which is the tank being damaged). Foremost, the possibility of injuring and further stressing out, the already stressed out, shrimp by not only netting it an additional two times (third time in less than a week) but by also moving it into a new container and then moving again back into a tank that has new water parameters. Shrimp are delicate (especially cleaner and ornamental shrimp) and even being careful, netting risks injury. Furthermore, there is a chance that either or both fish have similar issues, especially since one—the royal gramma—is not an open water swimmer and thus could be difficult to get out of the cave to transfer (risking injury).

 

Regarding the sand bed, my point made above, didn't insinuate that disturbing it would cause an ammonia spike that would kill the fish. The point is that on top of everything else he would be doing (removing livestock; removing, breaking and re-gluing rock; large water changes; etc), disturbing the sand bed could, and in fact is likely to, cause one additional change that would further add stress to the system, an especially new system. The point of listing these changes is to illustrate the noninclusive list of possible problems with this course of action; this list is not saying that each one on it's own is potentially detrimental.

 

I think it would be significantly less risky to let the tank settle out for at least another few days before deciding to do anything drastic. It takes some time for new additions to establish themselves in a non-familiar tank. For example, last Friday, the same day the OP added the shrimp, I added a peppermint shrimp to my system, which is significantly smaller and has more livestock than the OP's. For the first several days the fire shrimp in my tank would aggressively chase the peppermint shrimp out of its territory. As would the pom pom crab, emerald crab, blenny, and waspfish. Only last night did the peppermint shrimp find a hole that it was comfortable with, and this morning the blenny was getting so used to it that it had stopped chasing it. This has happened with each new addition I have made to the tank, eventually they get familiar with each other and settle in. I don't think I should have ever considered tearing apart my system over minor aggression. 

 

Arguably, the number one rule in this hobby is nothing good happens fast. It seems that suggesting a complete aquascape change over a royal gramma who likes a certain cave and a stressed out newly introduced shrimp completely violates this tenet.  Honestly, I don't think the OP's scape seems terrible. As stated, before I have many more inhabitants, and my tank has both significantly less room and fewer caves (I basically have a barnacle, that's it), and my livestock seem both fat and happy. But as stated earlier, I'm certainly not the expert. 

[coralline-adam]

If it were me I would move the gamma to its own tank. It will keep picking on the clown and the shrimp even if you redo your aquascape.

[Tired]

I wouldn't suggest tearing apart the whole tank, no. But as it stands, the only really good hiding place is in that structure in the center of the tank, and the gramma has claimed it. So, the others need hiding places as well. Addition of some dry rock (assuming it's cleaned enough to be added safely) to make new hiding places isn't a very big disruption. It also wouldn't require the animals to be captured, as long as a close eye was kept on where they were. Much less of an undertaking than a full rescape. 

 

Bullying of a new arrival is one thing, but the shrimp is actually being attacked. I'd worry that the gramma will bite something more vital than an antenna. 

[Beginnerreeftanker]

Everyone, this is what I did.  I bought some little pieces of dry rock, along with a very cool fan type live rock that I found.  That was acclimated and then put into the tank, where it is now leaning up against the tall rock. I also bought a breeding box, where my cleaner shrimp is now residing- I slowly reached in and grabbed him when he was cleaning my hand.  My gramma is not to be seen right now, and all is well.  Tomorrow I will rearrange the original rockscape just a little bit in order to put the fan on top, and I will create an aquascape out of the small pieces of live rock by puttying them together.  So Thankyou everyone for your advice, I used all of it a little!

[Beginnerreeftanker]

Also one more question.  Will my cleaner shrimp molt inside of the breeder box because he is protected?  I’ll be able to spot feed him easily for a few days, and eventually release him when I re-aquascape.  It was just be great if he could do his stuff in there....I just got a 72 gallon oceanic tank, and when that gets all set up I’ll probably relocate my gramma into there. That may not be for a while, so if my local fishstore- excuse my language- “babysittt” my fish until it’s ready to be relocated, that’d be cool too.  Just wondering about the cleaner shrimp though.  

[Tired]

If the shrimp needs to molt, yes, he should molt in the box. Be sure he has something to hide behind in there. 

 

That should help a lot. Just keep an eye on your parameters. I assume the live rock was pre-cycled? 

 

You shouldn't have the fish store babysit your fish. The stress of being moved again will be bad for them, and they might catch a disease from something. Leave them in this tank. 

[Beginnerreeftanker]

Great, yeah I just put a little piece of rock in.  The live rock is ready to be put In, and then I’ll just keep it in my tank.  Thanks everyone!

[TerraIncognita]

2 hours ago, Cannedfish said:

The aquascape being changed and everyone being upset for 2 or 3 days is hardly the worst case scenario. Rather, there are several scenarios that are not only worse than the current situation but also worse than the "worst case scenario" that you outlined above (but is still far from the worst case scenario, which is the tank being damaged). Foremost, the possibility of injuring and further stressing out, the already stressed out, shrimp by not only netting it an additional two times (third time in less than a week) but by also moving it into a new container and then moving again back into a tank that has new water parameters. Shrimp are delicate (especially cleaner and ornamental shrimp) and even being careful, netting risks injury. Furthermore, there is a chance that either or both fish have similar issues, especially since one—the royal gramma—is not an open water swimmer and thus could be difficult to get out of the cave to transfer (risking injury).

 

Regarding the sand bed, my point made above, didn't insinuate that disturbing it would cause an ammonia spike that would kill the fish. The point is that on top of everything else he would be doing (removing livestock; removing, breaking and re-gluing rock; large water changes; etc), disturbing the sand bed could, and in fact is likely to, cause one additional change that would further add stress to the system, an especially new system. The point of listing these changes is to illustrate the noninclusive list of possible problems with this course of action; this list is not saying that each one on it's own is potentially detrimental.

 

I think it would be significantly less risky to let the tank settle out for at least another few days before deciding to do anything drastic. It takes some time for new additions to establish themselves in a non-familiar tank. For example, last Friday, the same day the OP added the shrimp, I added a peppermint shrimp to my system, which is significantly smaller and has more livestock than the OP's. For the first several days the fire shrimp in my tank would aggressively chase the peppermint shrimp out of its territory. As would the pom pom crab, emerald crab, blenny, and waspfish. Only last night did the peppermint shrimp find a hole that it was comfortable with, and this morning the blenny was getting so used to it that it had stopped chasing it. This has happened with each new addition I have made to the tank, eventually they get familiar with each other and settle in. I don't think I should have ever considered tearing apart my system over minor aggression. 

 

Arguably, the number one rule in this hobby is nothing good happens fast. It seems that suggesting a complete aquascape change over a royal gramma who likes a certain cave and a stressed out newly introduced shrimp completely violates this tenet.  Honestly, I don't think the OP's scape seems terrible. As stated, before I have many more inhabitants, and my tank has both significantly less room and fewer caves (I basically have a barnacle, that's it), and my livestock seem both fat and happy. But as stated earlier, I'm certainly not the expert. 

 

 

The only thing I can say to this post my friend is 1.

 

I do not think the situation you have is the same as the OP's his shrimp was being bullied to an extent that was causing more stress on it than I think netting it would. I dont really want to continue this argument beyond that.

 

So while your situation is clearly different just in how you write it and explain it. I think that's really the only point. I don't really want a who's dick is bigger contest here man. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

 

You even said your shrimp found a HOLE it was safe in, and that it was only what 3 days, this is CURRENT WRITING,  meaning even AFTER Your shrimp found his home his shrimp is still being bullied. OBVIOUSLY  clear difference. additionally your shrimp found a HOLE wow he found a ####ing spot to hide. in the rock. like you mean in your aquascape there's a spot for him to hide?????

 

IN. YOUR. AQUASCAPE. YOUR. SHRIMP. FOUND! A. SPOT.

 

 

There is NO spot to hide for his other shrimp as you can clearly see, he figured out of the ENTIRE TANK, his best spot to hide from the gramma was in a corner..... no?

 

The entire time the problem has been, and was shrimp is being bullied, doesn't look like he has a spot to hide "heres our recommendations"

 

Your recommendation is: "Wait longer maybe he'll find a spot on his own." Ours is, "no he's probably not going to before he dies give him is own spot."

 

Sorry if my response seems mean, but your response was just as dickish ❤️

 

 

I've successfully re-aquascaped 3 times in my life with no damage or harm. So To each their own.

[Cannedfish]

12 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

 

 

The only thing I can say to this post my friend is 1.

 

I do not think the situation you have is the same as the OP's his shrimp was being bullied to an extent that was causing more stress on it than I think netting it would. I dont really want to continue this argument beyond that.

 

So while your situation is clearly different just in how you write it and explain it. I think that's really the only point. I don't really want a who's dick is bigger contest here man. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

 

You even said your shrimp found a HOLE it was safe in, and that it was only what 3 days, this is CURRENT WRITING,  meaning even AFTER Your shrimp found his home his shrimp is still being bullied. OBVIOUSLY  clear difference. additionally your shrimp found a HOLE wow he found a ####ing spot to hide. in the rock. like you mean in your aquascape there's a spot for him to hide?????

 

IN. YOUR. AQUASCAPE. YOUR. SHRIMP. FOUND! A. SPOT.

 

 

There is NO spot to hide for his other shrimp as you can clearly see, he figured out of the ENTIRE TANK, his best spot to hide from the gramma was in a corner..... no?

 

The entire time the problem has been, and was shrimp is being bullied, doesn't look like he has a spot to hide "heres our recommendations"

 

Your recommendation is: "Wait longer maybe he'll find a spot on his own." Ours is, "no he's probably not going to before he dies give him is own spot."

 

Sorry if my response seems mean, but your response was just as dickish ❤️

 

 

I've successfully re-aquascaped 3 times in my life with no damage or harm. So To each their own.

Wow. 

[TerraIncognita]

Just now, Cannedfish said:

Wow. 

In none of my post do i ever directly attack another reefers suggestion buddy.

 

We're all here trying to help. If you have advice give it. But leave other people who are also trying to help alone.

[Cannedfish]

3 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

In none of my post do i ever directly attack another reefers suggestion buddy.

 

We're all here trying to help. If you have advice give it. But leave other people who are also trying to help alone.

Noted. 

[TerraIncognita]

3 minutes ago, Cannedfish said:

Noted. 

Sorry if I made you feel a certain way. I'm really a nice person I work in healthcare. But I just didn't want my offer of help attacked as something that was the worst possible idea, when I've done it myself before several times completely successfully. ❤️ I know you're just trying to help too. sorry.