Nano tank miracles

[TerraIncognita]

Just saw this video on YouTube. 2 months old.

 

guy set up and stocked all on the first day.

 

interesting thoughts from this.

 

wanted to share and hear everyone’s thoughts.

 

oh yeah forgot to mention no water changes for 6 months 👀

 

 

[NoOneLikesADryTang]

Just my opinion, and in no way judging anyone that would want to do it this way, but why would you want a tank that the corals don’t grow in?

[Nano sapiens]

37 minutes ago, NoOneLikesADryTang said:

Just my opinion, and in no way judging anyone that would want to do it this way, but why would you want a tank that the corals don’t grow in?

I can see this 'little growth' tank being a good fit for something like a doctor's office, or for someone who is away for longer periods of time and doesn't want the added cost/complexity of automated systems.

 

Jake is correct that in smaller tanks accelerated coral growth can get to be a chore to manage over longer periods of time.  In an older semi-packed small nano like my old 12g, I'm actually quite happy to have ~1/4" stony coral growth every few months (although I can't always keep it that slow for some).

 

'Back-in-the-day', glass tops and hoods were used on just about all tanks, including reef tanks,.  The caveat is that most tanks from the early reef keeping era used wet/dry filtration and then the Berlin systems employed a protein skimmer, both of which ensured higher oxygen levels.  If I were to use a nearly full cover glass top (as shown here) on this type of low-maintenance/low-moderate bioload system, I'd use the skimmer (without the cup) to help ensure adequate oxygen saturation.

 

Updates and Q&A installment:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLZo97y0EgI&feature=emb_rel_end

[Guest]

I saw this vid, and as a newb even I was like Nah, that doesn’t seem right, I don’t really know much but really, no water changed in six months, with two clownfish!!

[Tired]

Yeah, the lack of water changes is a problem. Even if nitrates are okay, the trace minerals are going to be an issue sooner or later. I would also wonder if he's underfeeding, given everything, which is no good for the fish.

 

Stocked from day 1 is possible if you have really good, pre-cycled live rock, because that establishes your bacteria immediately. You've basically outsourced your cycle. I started my tank with pre-cycled rock from my LFS, and it was immediately in a state where some hitchhiker zoas were starting to open up. I wouldn't be surprised if I could have added my CUC and some shrimp right then, though I think I'd avoid fish for a little while. 

 

I will agree that corals not growing much might be good in such a small tank, but I don't know that most people would want it. 

[TerraIncognita]

I think everyone is missing the point a little bit.

 

How long would you say you should cycle and get a tank going before you even add the most complex SPS?

 

A Lot of people say 6 months.

 

Here's a tank, fully stocked, totally cycled, beautiful coraline, low nutrient. Stocked the FIRST day. This is 6 months later....

 

So.... now, lets say you want to start GROWING. Okay, add some filtration media and lets get to it, water changes upped, monitoring starts, dosing starts now.

 

What do you think your coral are going to do NOW after they've been established in this tank for 6 months and now you are going to start feeding them for real?

 

Have we been STARTING our tanks wrong this whole time? This is the SAME 6 month time frame people. Think about it.

 

 

3 hours ago, Nano sapiens said:

accelerated coral growth can get to be a chore to manage over longer periods of time.  In an older semi-packed small nano like my old 12g, I'm actually quite happy to have ~1/4" stony coral growth every few months (although I can't always keep it that slow for some).

 

'Back-in-the-day', glass tops and hoods were used on just

 

[TerraIncognita]

I'm going to apply this to some extent to the JapanAqua I just started with my Girlfriend. I'll post the thread there. No where NEAR as nice as a Red Sea Nano, but hey, worth a shot. I'll be keeping a much more close eye on this as it's in my home office during COVID 😄

 

I'm just going to keep clowns in LS wise with the Coral and do super rare feedings, I don't feel safe on the complete no water change so I'll see about that and I'll be monitoring or checking params vs him not doing it at all.

[Tired]

Definitely do water changes. Please feed your fish at least once a day- small fish on a reef graze constantly. They should not be fed only a couple times a week. 

 

Now, the question with that guy's tank is, will it last? More than one tank on here was set up super quickly, looks great for a bit, and then crashes. 

 

There's no hard-and-fast timeline for corals. It depends fully on how the tank is cycled, and how long it takes to hit something like stability and maturity. With dry rock, yes, you're very likely going to need a good 6 months. With the best ocean rock, however long it takes the rock to stop dying off (which can be almost no time if it's shipped in water) can be all the cycling you need to start keeping corals. 

If you take dry rock, put it in your tank, and immediately stock with fish and corals, you are going to have everything die. Not all tank startups are the same. This guy's possible success (and, again, it remains to be seen how long this will last) does NOT mean that everyone can start stocking a tank immediately. Your tank needs to be cycled before you add fish and easy corals, and it needs to be stable before you add SPS. Every tank takes a different amount of time to cycle, and to be stable, and stability time in particular varies hugely.

Also, nothing good comes from pushing people to rush. Going more slowly than needed is immensely better than going too fast. 

[Nano sapiens]

50 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

I'm just going to keep clowns in LS wise with the Coral and do super rare feedings, I don't feel safe on the complete no water change so I'll see about that and I'll be monitoring or checking params vs him not doing it at all.

Food for thought (pun intended) ☺️

 

In nature fish feed much more often than we typically do in a reef tank, but the portions are much smaller.  Smaller feedings mean that their systems have a chance to absorb nutrients more efficiently compared to eating a lot all at once.  In a reef aquarium, the vast majority of excess nutrients comes from our feeding regimen.  In addition, the prepared feeds that many of us use tend to be much more nutrient dense and this is why our fish can do just fine with feedings every 2-3 days, especially if the aquarium has abundant supplemental small organisms.  Live or frozen food needs to be fed much more often for the fish to get a similar caloric intake.

 

IME (and I think most people would agree), larger systems can handle the lack of water changes much better than smaller ones.  I had a 55g (lightly populated and fed) that I ran for ~5 years (no mechanical or chemical filtration) with just a 5% water change once or twice during that time  The few fish and hardy soft and stony corals did fine.  My current 12g receives a total of 1g/week water change due to a much higher density of life and the resulting higher quantity of food input compared to the water volume. 

 

Point is, the maintenance needs of a system depend greatly on the amount of bioload and feeding. 

[TerraIncognita]

6 hours ago, Tired said:

Definitely do water changes. Please feed your fish at least once a day- small fish on a reef graze constantly. They should not be fed only a couple times a week. 

 

Now, the question with that guy's tank is, will it last? More than one tank on here was set up super quickly, looks great for a bit, and then crashes. 

 

There's no hard-and-fast timeline for corals. It depends fully on how the tank is cycled, and how long it takes to hit something like stability and maturity. With dry rock, yes, you're very likely going to need a good 6 months. With the best ocean rock, however long it takes the rock to stop dying off (which can be almost no time if it's shipped in water) can be all the cycling you need to start keeping corals. 

If you take dry rock, put it in your tank, and immediately stock with fish and corals, you are going to have everything die. Not all tank startups are the same. This guy's possible success (and, again, it remains to be seen how long this will last) does NOT mean that everyone can start stocking a tank immediately. Your tank needs to be cycled before you add fish and easy corals, and it needs to be stable before you add SPS. Every tank takes a different amount of time to cycle, and to be stable, and stability time in particular varies hugely.

Also, nothing good comes from pushing people to rush. Going more slowly than needed is immensely better than going too fast. 

Well I already have a separate 3 months Nano stocked with about 7 different corals, and all are showing growth after 1 month of introduction. I introduced them at 2 Months. It's not my first tank so I'm not 100% green. I do take a lot of care of it for sure, my husbandry is very good.

 

However I disagree about putting timing on things. I think there's a lot more to it than that. I think it's a "safe net" of time as a "cure-all".

 

Again, the point I was really looking at was just the initial 6 months of the tank's life. The guy had NO algae blooms, and NO problems. I mean, idk. Basically the otherway is to not have any coral, only a few fish, fight the algae bloom, and wait in pain.

 

Something about that isn't appealing and I think the Jake is onto a possible way to get aquariums going. It's not for "new hobbyist" but if there was a guide by guide to do exactly what he said, I don't see how the tank sitting in his office, is going to differ from a Red Sea exact same tank with the same conditions kept in another house. Obviously water quality etc etc. But the guy did 0 water changes. So. Anyway. It's all just food for thought. I'm not trying to force anyone to start a tank in another way, just something I was interested in.

 

 

[Nano sapiens]

49 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

Again, the point I was really looking at was just the initial 6 months of the tank's life. The guy had NO algae blooms, and NO problems. I mean, idk. Basically the otherway is to not have any coral, only a few fish, fight the algae bloom, and wait in pain.

Actually, he did have a bubble algae outbreak and some hair algae on the sand bed.  Looks like some diatoms, too, on the sand bed.

 

I started my 12g with live rock, live sand and some corals from my 55g.  No cycle to speak of and very few algae problems.  Being 'old school', I waited a bit before adding fish, but probably didn't have to.

 

So yes, certainly can work if the live rock/live sand are already seeded with bacteria.

[Clown79]

11 hours ago, Tired said:

Definitely do water changes. Please feed your fish at least once a day- small fish on a reef graze constantly. They should not be fed only a couple times a week. 

 

Now, the question with that guy's tank is, will it last? More than one tank on here was set up super quickly, looks great for a bit, and then crashes. 

 

There's no hard-and-fast timeline for corals. It depends fully on how the tank is cycled, and how long it takes to hit something like stability and maturity. With dry rock, yes, you're very likely going to need a good 6 months. With the best ocean rock, however long it takes the rock to stop dying off (which can be almost no time if it's shipped in water) can be all the cycling you need to start keeping corals. 

If you take dry rock, put it in your tank, and immediately stock with fish and corals, you are going to have everything die. Not all tank startups are the same. This guy's possible success (and, again, it remains to be seen how long this will last) does NOT mean that everyone can start stocking a tank immediately. Your tank needs to be cycled before you add fish and easy corals, and it needs to be stable before you add SPS. Every tank takes a different amount of time to cycle, and to be stable, and stability time in particular varies hugely.

Also, nothing good comes from pushing people to rush. Going more slowly than needed is immensely better than going too fast. 

I was thinking the same thing.

 

Its only 6 months old and anything can go wrong and quickly.

 

There is no guarantee to the success of a reef tank. 

 

6 mnths is nothing to go on, tank is still new.

[Tamberav]

I don't get it...he put easy fish and easy corals in a tank. So ya...it's going to be easier.

 

Generally people want more then what's in that tank though so it's not going to apply to most people. 

 

So you can just do waterchanges and take your time and accomplish more than clowns beginner corals. 

[debbeach13]

I liked that he mentioned that this might be a good approach for an office tank or someone that travels a lot. A simple tank with simple coral and fish make sense then. Some people cannot afford designer coral or fish. This shows a nice alternative. I do think feeding that little is not some thing the average person is going to do so water changes will probably be needed. For years the standard was 20% a monthly. How many times have you read just got back from vacation and the tank looks great! So hands off here and there can be a good thing. BUT I love my ATO! He set this up in a day but did not actually recommend it. Plus that is a hell of a system to start with.

[TerraIncognita]

6 hours ago, Clown79 said:

thinking the same thing.

 

Its only 6 months old and anything can go wrong and quickly.

 

There is no guarantee to the success

Definitely good thoughts. And I agree with Debbeach that most people, really just love feeding their fish, no one buys fish so they can neglect the tank in the corner for 6 months, in fact it's always the opposite, people obsess for a few, and then problems happen, and they struggle lol.

 

I guess to me, I was just thinking from the aspect of a brand new reefer. One of the biggest reasons I think this Hobby never and probably will never become as big spread as freshwater is because of that 6 month steep learning curve and hump. To me this was maybe just a way for new reefers to have a "surefire" way to start a tank right. If the guys method could be repeated, I would tell a new reefer to do this, and in the meantime study for 6 months. That's really all. The amount of dead fish and coral that people kill in the first 6 months. I think the death toll would be less from forced reduced feeding than the other way. But hey. I'm not a scientist or genius, or marine biologist. I'm an Enthusiast :).

 

I'd rather send a new reefer through pains of not being able to interact with their fish as much for the first 6 months, than through pains of fish and coral dying left and right and spike's and emotional horrors, and post everyday about "help my fish is acting funny". 😄.

 

But then again, who knows if this is a "success" or "repeatable". So I guess time will tell, more brave souls like Jake, experimenting and tampering and pushing the envelope of "whats standard"

 

I guess really the test would be to see what happens next with this tank really. I don't know if he's going to continue videos on that tank though. But he should :).

[debbeach13]

He did mention he was going to document doing the first water change and I think he said right after they finished this video. I have not searched to see if there is a video about that. 

[Tired]

This is DEFINITELY not a surefire way to start a tank right. I wouldn't be encouraging people to set up a freshwater tank and immediately stock it fully, let alone a saltwater tank. 

 

Anyone starting a tank should be encouraged to start it with live rock when at all possible, and to then test and wait. When the tank is post-cycle stable, at whatever point that is, they can begin to stock it. When the tank starts to become mature, they can start adding more fragile things. We should absolutely be encouraging people to wait, not saying "look at this guy, he set everything up immediately". People should wait and watch their own tank's timeline, instead of trying to adhere to someone elses', especially not one this fast. Especially not when the main reason why new reefers have things die is because they stocked too fast or without doing enough research on something's care. 

 

There's a reason that certain things are standard. Exploring around them is all well and good, but we don't want to look at something that one person did in a very specific situation, go "ah, this is definitely going to work long-term", and start suggesting that new hobbyists do it. 

 

IMO, the closest anyone should ever come to this sort of thing is adding CUC immediately. If you have really nice, pre-cycled live rock, buy your snails and whatnot with it, and put them in. Ghost-feed for a week. If you determine that the tank is definitely ready to be stocked, after that week of testing it with a bit of pressure on the cycle, you can start to stock it. That way, just in case it's not ready for fish or corals, you avoid causing things to suffer and die. Maybe you could have added fish and easy corals immediately, but waiting a week to be sure doesn't hurt anything. Everything needs time.

 

Even if his method can be repeated, encouraging someone to go slower than is needed is a good thing. Research is good. I'm running on a solid 8 years of relevant research now, including two separate points in time where I hyperfixated and read almost nothing but reefkeeping-related things for a month or so (and I read a lot in a month!), and I still don't know everything that could potentially be relevant. Research should generally be done BEFORE your livestock. We should not be encouraging people to go faster with their first tank, period. Let them get a year of reefing experience in, and then, maybe, this is a viable way to set up a second tank. Once someone knows what to look for in problems, and is familiar with how things should go.

[debbeach13]

I also do not support setting up a tank fast and absolutely not in one day. That used to piss me off about the show "tanked". I loved some of the designs, I thought many were stupid but hated the same day livestock additions. Even though they usually set up fish only with great filtration. I do support simple fish and simple coral for newbies. 

[Tired]

Ugh, "Tanked" was a horrible example. They stocked way too many fish that were going to get way too big, many of them in aquariums without enough places to hide. They sold this poor kid who wanted a "shark tank" a less-than-5gal tank with multiple fish that will need at least a 30gal, and are probably going to die of inadequate cycling and/or aggression as soon as he gets home. 

 

It wouldn't even be hard for them to get the tanks cycled! Just run a big tub full of sponges and ammonia dosing back at the shop, stuff a cubic foot of cycled sponge media into every tank they build, and start slow with the stocking. And don't add inappropriate fish. But nooo, they had to do the fancy stuff that looked good for their customers and on TV. 

[TerraIncognita]

A lot of strong opinion here which is great. I love it.

 

However I want to put a few points in here really quick.

 

Firstly I noticed at least one response from someone referring to Jake Adams as "some guy", or "some reefer" like he doesn't have a Reef Builders Youtube Channel with 75K Subscribers, and work for World Wide Corals, and Reef Builders. Meaning HIS FULL TIME JOB IS SALTWATER AQUARIUMS. I don't know if anyone who's posted here has a full time job doing saltwater? Anyone?

 

So while everyone here is entitled to their own opinions. I'd like for people to tone down a little bit the enforcement of your language like "you must" or "you have to" or "don't"

 

Because as far as I'm concerned, someone with more knowledge than 90% of the people in this forum just did exactly the opposite, and afterwards made a YouTube video to brag about it and shove it in everyones face (I think his direct intention was to do this and he even says so at the beginning of his initial goal was to show people "setting up a reef tank is actually so simple everyone.")

 

More or less I'm just trying to point out a fact if Jake Adams, and "Doug" from Nano reef were in a room together giving advice. I know who'd I'd listen too. Maybe that's just me. But That's how I feel.

 

With that said. I'm not trying to say you guys are WRONG. Everything that you are saying is RIGHT! For sure, There's nothing WRONG with what you guys are saying. At all, and of course there's 1,000,000 ways to skin a cat.

 

I'm trying to get to a point where IMO for ME and just ME I vehomently disagree that there is only 1 WAY to start your tank, and only ONE way is right, and if someone dares stock before 3 months, to the DEVIL WITH THEM!

 

Haha, to be blunt i think it's total BULL S***. so if ALL you're going to do in this forum is take a GIANT CRAP over anything other than what is YOUR 6 month way to do something. honestly go to another post, because there's about 1,000,000 Posts here going over how to set up your tank the same way over. and over. and over. and over. and over.

 

We get it. CYCLE.

 

With all that said. I myself want to push some boundries :) So I will do what I want. I will raise my tank, and I'm sure it will be great.

 

Oh lastly, it's better if you actually watch the video before replying otherwise all this is out of context.

 

If I ASK for help great, but please, don't attack my methods of raising MY pets. So far so Good. If anyone is interested, you can follow my threads. But I've found certain methods and things which seem to bypass some aspects of time. This is my 3rd reef. So I'm sure I'll figure it out one way or the other <3.

 

Thank you. and I love you all ❤️

 

 

 

[TerraIncognita]

6 hours ago, debbeach13 said:

I also do not support setting up a tank fast and absolutely not in one day. That used to piss me off about the show "tanked". I loved some of the designs, I thought many were stupid but hated the same day livestock additions. Even though they usually set up fish only with great filtration. I do support simple fish and simple coral for newbies. 

 

5 hours ago, Tired said:

Ugh, "Tanked" was a horrible example. They stocked way too many fish that were going to get way too big, many of them in aquariums without enough places to hide. They sold this poor kid who wanted a "shark tank" a less-than-5gal tank with multiple fish that will need at least a 30gal, and are probably going to die of inadequate cycling and/or aggression as soon as he gets home. 

 

It wouldn't even be hard for them to get the tanks cycled! Just run a big tub full of sponges and ammonia dosing back at the shop, stuff a cubic foot of cycled sponge media into every tank they build, and start slow with the stocking. And don't add inappropriate fish. But nooo, they had to do the fancy stuff that looked good for their customers and on TV. 

 

Yes

 

Tanked was horrible. Im sure there were thousands of fish deaths. But I'm not talking about "Tanked" lol.

[debbeach13]

I hope to follow the progress of this tank. Many on Nano reef often say there are many ways to start a tank because there are. What works for one or even many does not always work in a different tank. I noticed right away that he was at work. Luck guy. I also commented that I liked his idea for office tanks and people that are away a lot.

[TerraIncognita]

2 hours ago, debbeach13 said:

I hope to follow the progress of this tank. Many on Nano reef often say there are many ways to start a tank because there are. What works for one or even many does not always work in a different tank. I noticed right away that he was at work. Luck guy. I also commented that I liked his idea for office tanks and people that are away a lot.

Appreciate it! Thread is here:

 

As a final note, I'm one of the luckiest reefers I know. I've basically never lost a thing, and some how things just go right.

 

I think it has something to do with my husbandry and as weird as it sounds just love for my tanks. When I have lost a fish, I almost cry. I really love everything I pick out, so Idk I think that alone just makes a big change on attitude, care, attention and other little things. Kind of like with cooking, or really anything else in life.

 

For example, here's my most recent clown, smaller than a 20sided Dice. (They're about 3/4 an inch in diameter) and the first day he just went straight to the Nem. I didn't have to even think about it.

 

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, TerraIncognita said:

Appreciate it!

 

As a final note, I'm one of the luckiest reefers I know. I've basically never lost a thing, and some how things just go right.

 

I think it has something to do with my husbandry and as weird as it sounds just love for my tanks. When I have lost a fish, I almost cry. I really love everything I pick out, so Idk I think that alone just makes a big change on attitude, care, attention and other little things. Kind of like with cooking, or really anything else in life.

 

For example, here's my most recent clown, smaller than a 20sided Dice. (They're about 3/4 an inch in diameter) and the first day he just went straight to the Nem. I didn't have to even think about it.

 

Wonderful! Also, what type of coral is the one on the right bottom?

[TerraIncognita]

18 minutes ago, FreshwaterFishMan said:

Wonderful! Also, what type of coral is the one on the right bottom?

the one in the sand is a Toxic Hammer.

 

The one above it is a particularly bright GSP.