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Tropic Marin All-For-Reef - users thread


mitten_reef

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mitten_reef

Good morning,

 

I'm leaning heavily toward using Tropic Marin All for Reef in lieu of my Red Sea Ca/Alk/Mg system.  If you're one of the AFR users, please post a comment.

 

  1. what were you using before?
  2. how long has it been since you've converted to AFR?
  3. First impression (optional?)
  4. provide a link to you tank thread so those who are interested can follow

 

Thank you!

 

@Cannedfish@whisnantrider,

 

I feel like a handful of the threads I followed have been on AFR, can't recall others at the moment, sorry if I missed you guys.   

 

Edited by mitten_reef
changed the thread title with full product name
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Here are my thoughts!

 

1. what were you using before? I was using ESV B-Ionic 2-part;

2. how long has it been since you've converted to AFR? Switched about a month or so ago.

3. Reasons for the switch: I switched for 3 main reasons: 1) everywhere I have read, All-For-Reef has received really good reviews, and Tropic Marin has historically produced some of the consistently best products on the market; 2) I was noticing dosing pump inconsistencies. No matter how often I re-calibrated the pumps it seems like one dosing container was used up faster than the other. While this could solely be the result of inaccurate pumps, or pump drift. I think it really comes down to how small of quantities I was dosing at a time, specifically one ML at a time several times a day, a millisecond difference in pump dosing times, can have significant effects over time, and to ask for more accuracy out of hobby grade pumps is, IMO unreasonable. Furthermore, while minute dosing discrepancies would likely go unnoticed in a larger tank, when you are dosing only a couple ML's a day, and only a ML at a time, as said before, this can cause large water parameter differences. I wanted to eliminate this potential problem spot altogether, therefore switched to a single dosing fluid. 3). I have been tempting to reduce the complexity of my total system. For example, I have eliminated all forms of chemical filtration (purigen, carbon, and phosguard). Now, filtration is just floss, UV, and a skimmer. Furthermore, I have reduced the frequency of water changes and supplement dosing. Inline with this reducing an entire dosing pump and dosing fluid further helped simplify my system. 

4: First Impressions: Overall, the switch was pretty seamless. I dosed about the same as I dosed with ESV and although it took about to weeks to level everything out and stabilize (from a visual eye test of the coral), after that, things have seemed to be rock solid and stable. This is supported by the fact, the corals have had the best PE I have ever experienced, and I have had to increase my dosing amount (indicating growth). Additionally, the single dosing fluid has reduced the constant anxiety I had knowing there were slight dosing pump inconsistencies. My only gripe so far is that the product doesn't come in a diluted form. To be able to dial in the dosing amounts I have always diluted my dosing fluid 1:1 (so I can dose smaller more exact amounts). There was a debate a few weeks ago about whether you can dilute AFR with distilled water. I called BRS and they said you could, I emailed Tropic Marin they said you could not, because there is a chance for bacteria growth in the dosing containers. I 100% believe Tropic Marin, however, I am taking the risk and diluting the solution, because I need to be able to control dosing in .5ml amounts. Once my dosing is enough to stop (6ml+ a day), I will switch to full strength. I have a tiny tank with high dosing demands, so this may not be a factor for everyone. 

4. My 10 gallon box of chaos!: Link here! 

5: Summary: If you are thinking about switching (and cost plays no factor in your decision, because it is more expensive), I would say go for it. I have been really happy with the results. Although, I think it may be uneconomical for a really large SPS system, for nano and mid-size tanks, it does seem to make things easier and eliminate at least a part of a potential tank failure point. Note, however, I have only been using the product for a short time, and the product hasn't been around for as long as 2-part dosing fluids, so thing may change in the long term.

 

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You can whip-up some of the DIY all-for-reef minus the trace elements (just biomagnesium and their carbo-calc) and it's actually not too far off normal two-part expenses (as long as you're not big-boxing through BRS and mixing that up yourself).

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I haven't used All-For-One, but have used Calcium Acetate extensively and will say that one thing you in particular will want to consider is the fact you are tying replenishing alk/ca/mg to carbon dosing. If you are using a relatively small amount of All-For-One or other one-part product, you probably wouldn't notice at all, but the reason I am singling out your tank is because it is absolutely packed with acros and in like a year or two you are probably going to be going through more Alk and Ca than anyone else on Nano Reef and that's going to be a pretty noticeable amount of carbon dosing. Just food for thought.

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9 minutes ago, jservedio said:

I haven't used All-For-One, but have used Calcium Acetate extensively and will say that one thing you in particular will want to consider is the fact you are tying replenishing alk/ca/mg to carbon dosing. If you are using a relatively small amount of All-For-One or other one-part product, you probably wouldn't notice at all, but the reason I am singling out your tank is because it is absolutely packed with acros and in like a year or two you are probably going to be going through more Alk and Ca than anyone else on Nano Reef and that's going to be a pretty noticeable amount of carbon dosing. Just food for thought.

May need your help to explain this further. I did see how AFR says there is a maximum dosing amount and wasn't sure why. Also I'm not 100% on the science behind AFR (especially regarding the carbon dosing aspect), what would be the up and downsides of it. What would you suggest... should I put it on my radar to switch back once dosing gets really high? Could the carbon dosing have the potential side affects of lowering nutrients. Sorry, I'm kinda out of my depth** here. 

 

**Unfortunately, living in Louisiana I'm actually banned by the state constitution from learning science if that science doesn't relate to either LSU or Saint football or how to make gumbo more delicious. We aren't even allow to say the word ********, rather we just say, those fossilized giant lizards that shall-not-be-named, some real Voldemort shit.  

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mitten_reef
45 minutes ago, jservedio said:

I haven't used All-For-One, but have used Calcium Acetate extensively and will say that one thing you in particular will want to consider is the fact you are tying replenishing alk/ca/mg to carbon dosing. If you are using a relatively small amount of All-For-One or other one-part product, you probably wouldn't notice at all, but the reason I am singling out your tank is because it is absolutely packed with acros and in like a year or two you are probably going to be going through more Alk and Ca than anyone else on Nano Reef and that's going to be a pretty noticeable amount of carbon dosing. Just food for thought.

that's some really interesting info here - I think you're gonna have to unpack it a little bit more for me too.  I haven't read up on it much yet, hence, why I started the thread.  

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I think it's also compounded by stuff in the biomagnesium, from my understanding, but the form of calcium used "needs" to be processed by tank inhabitants.
Here's a snippet from NanoReef a few years back; (technically sourced Randy Holmes Farley)

 

Quote

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate

Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar. When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate will also facilitate the growth of bacteria and the reduction of nutrients in systems, similar to that with folks dosing vinegar or vodka for that purpose. It will also facilitate conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2) in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process. The equation below shows the process that could take place:

5 CH3CO2– (acetate) + 8 NO3– → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH– + H2O


The actual Tropic Marin distributors and companyheads are amazing people and have, quite literally, given the entire formula and entertained thousands of questions on R2R among multiple threads if you want to do a deep-dive search.

**EDIT** I meant biomagnesium in my first post, not B-ionic.

OH, and source thread.
 

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57 minutes ago, Cannedfish said:

May need your help to explain this further. I did see how AFR says there is a maximum dosing amount and wasn't sure why. Also I'm not 100% on the science behind AFR (especially regarding the carbon dosing aspect), what would be the up and downsides of it. What would you suggest... should I put it on my radar to switch back once dosing gets really high? Could the carbon dosing have the potential side affects of lowering nutrients. Sorry, I'm kinda out of my depth** here. 

 

**Unfortunately, living in Louisiana I'm actually banned by the state constitution from learning science if that science doesn't relate to either LSU or Saint football or how to make gumbo more delicious. We aren't even allow to say the word ********, rather we just say, those fossilized giant lizards that shall-not-be-named, some real Voldemort shit.  

 

29 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

that's some really interesting info here - I think you're gonna have to unpack it a little bit more for me too.  I haven't read up on it much yet, hence, why I started the thread.  

 

AFR is based around Carbocalcium which is Calcium Formate - that is going to be a carbon source, albeit not nearly as potent of a carbon source as Calcium Acetate. Calcium Formate dissolved in water is going to form Calcium Ions and Formate Anions. Those Formate Anions are going to be metabolized by bacteria into bicarbonate. Unlike 2-part, carbonate/bicarbonate is not going to be immediately available to your corals - it has to be metabolized first. (Source: https://www.tropic-marin.com/neuigkeiten/de-neues-aus-dem-tropic-marin-labor/?lang=en)

 

I am not a chemistry or biochem guy, so all of the other organics along with the magnesium supplement thrown into the AFR mix firmly puts all the reactions way, way beyond me. Basically, if it goes beyond high school level AP chem, it's out of my league. I'd love to hear more about this from the actual chem and biochem guys that can break it down further.

 

The fact it relies on bacterial metabolism is probably the reason they have an upper limit on usage - plus there is likely some O2 depletion (which happens heavily with Calcium Acetate) from bacterial activity and pH drop from the CO2 byproduct. The only reason I mentioned this at all it is because if anyone on NR is going to run into that upper limit and test the possible side-effects of AFR, it's going to be mitten - that tank is primed to explode into a solid block of acro skeleton. That bacteria is going to use N and P, so your nutrients are going to drop, same as any other carbon source. How much, I have absolutely no idea!

 

@mitten_reef - what is the reason for you wanting to switch over? 3-part is clearly working extremely well for you right now, at least for me, I'd be really hesitant to make any changes. Especially to one that has a proprietary chemical makeup. I'm sure 95% of people on here AFR would be ideal for, but you are one of the few that could test the upper limits of it.

 

Also, @Amphrites - AFR uses Calcium Formate, not Calcium Acetate. Calcium Acetate (what Dr. Randy is being quoted about) has a bunch of very known limits.

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56 minutes ago, jservedio said:

 

@mitten_reef - what is the reason for you wanting to switch over? 3-part is clearly working extremely well for you right now, at least for me, I'd be really hesitant to make any changes. Especially to one that has a proprietary chemical makeup. I'm sure 95% of people on here AFR would be ideal for, but you are one of the few that could test the upper limits of it.

 

Also, @Amphrites - AFR uses Calcium Formate, not Calcium Acetate. Calcium Acetate (what Dr. Randy is being quoted about) has a bunch of very known limits.

That's why I linked the source actually, there was a bit more detail gone-into later on. I have some of the R2R threads bookmarked too, but I'd have to dig a bit to find anything particular about the side-effects of the small carbon-dose effect when your tank requires a liter of alk a day XD

Come to think of it, by the time Mitten's system requires a concerning dose, won't it likely need supplemental amino's and N03/P04 even on conventional two-part?

Hmmm, why not reach out to Tropic Marin either via email or on R2R? They're quite responsive and pretty helpful, I imagine there's still a possibility for a canned-answer somewhere along the lines of "our testing showed this would likely not be a concern in most reef systems" but, at the end of the day, even if I find something I'm not going to be able to properly-vet it for you.

The chemistry isn't particularly-complicated by itself, however once you factor in the nightmare of a living, breathing (literally in this case), aquarium system... well it's not just over-my-head, it's in a low-orbit.

I think Tropic Marin's testing and experience, perhaps the collective experience of hobbyists as well, is going to be your best bet.

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teamschreiba

I just started using this as well although the amount I’m dosing is extremely small. I just wanted to start to get in a routine right from the start. I started using based on simplicity and the need for only one dosing pump/tube. Link to my build is in my signature. 
 

There’s a very long Reefdudes video on YouTube where he talks with one of the Tropic Marin reps about AFR and carbocalcium and the impression I got was that the carbon dosing effect from AFR was very small.  I don’t run a skimmer so we’ll see how it works out! 

 

 

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mitten_reef
5 hours ago, Amphrites said:

I think it's also compounded by stuff in the biomagnesium, from my understanding, but the form of calcium used "needs" to be processed by tank inhabitants.
Here's a snippet from NanoReef a few years back; (technically sourced Randy Holmes Farley)

 


The actual Tropic Marin distributors and companyheads are amazing people and have, quite literally, given the entire formula and entertained thousands of questions on R2R among multiple threads if you want to do a deep-dive search.

**EDIT** I meant biomagnesium in my first post, not B-ionic.

OH, and source thread.
 

Travis’ thread was the first I’ve read about AFR. He stopped using it after a while, due to some growth/precipitation in the bottle (to be fair, he had a big bottle that ran for a while). So, maybe there is some sort of opened shelf life to this guy too? 

 

5 hours ago, jservedio said:

 

 

AFR is based around Carbocalcium which is Calcium Formate - that is going to be a carbon source, albeit not nearly as potent of a carbon source as Calcium Acetate. Calcium Formate dissolved in water is going to form Calcium Ions and Formate Anions. Those Formate Anions are going to be metabolized by bacteria into bicarbonate. Unlike 2-part, carbonate/bicarbonate is not going to be immediately available to your corals - it has to be metabolized first. (Source: https://www.tropic-marin.com/neuigkeiten/de-neues-aus-dem-tropic-marin-labor/?lang=en)

 

I am not a chemistry or biochem guy, so all of the other organics along with the magnesium supplement thrown into the AFR mix firmly puts all the reactions way, way beyond me. Basically, if it goes beyond high school level AP chem, it's out of my league. I'd love to hear more about this from the actual chem and biochem guys that can break it down further.

 

The fact it relies on bacterial metabolism is probably the reason they have an upper limit on usage - plus there is likely some O2 depletion (which happens heavily with Calcium Acetate) from bacterial activity and pH drop from the CO2 byproduct. The only reason I mentioned this at all it is because if anyone on NR is going to run into that upper limit and test the possible side-effects of AFR, it's going to be mitten - that tank is primed to explode into a solid block of acro skeleton. That bacteria is going to use N and P, so your nutrients are going to drop, same as any other carbon source. How much, I have absolutely no idea!

 

@mitten_reef - what is the reason for you wanting to switch over? 3-part is clearly working extremely well for you right now, at least for me, I'd be really hesitant to make any changes. Especially to one that has a proprietary chemical makeup. I'm sure 95% of people on here AFR would be ideal for, but you are one of the few that could test the upper limits of it.

 

Also, @Amphrites - AFR uses Calcium Formate, not Calcium Acetate. Calcium Acetate (what Dr. Randy is being quoted about) has a bunch of very known limits.

I’m just enticed by the simplicity of dosing one solution and done. I do manually dose ca and mag now, and that makes for some inconsistency.
I’m aware of the biological process upfront in producing free carbonate for uptake.  But the effect of increased biological activity will be interesting to understand more. 
 

4 hours ago, Amphrites said:

That's why I linked the source actually, there was a bit more detail gone-into later on. I have some of the R2R threads bookmarked too, but I'd have to dig a bit to find anything particular about the side-effects of the small carbon-dose effect when your tank requires a liter of alk a day XD

Come to think of it, by the time Mitten's system requires a concerning dose, won't it likely need supplemental amino's and N03/P04 even on conventional two-part?

Hmmm, why not reach out to Tropic Marin either via email or on R2R? They're quite responsive and pretty helpful, I imagine there's still a possibility for a canned-answer somewhere along the lines of "our testing showed this would likely not be a concern in most reef systems" but, at the end of the day, even if I find something I'm not going to be able to properly-vet it for you.

The chemistry isn't particularly-complicated by itself, however once you factor in the nightmare of a living, breathing (literally in this case), aquarium system... well it's not just over-my-head, it's in a low-orbit.

I think Tropic Marin's testing and experience, perhaps the collective experience of hobbyists as well, is going to be your best bet.

Hmm, I say I nominate @Cannedfish 😅. His tank is gonna hit the limit sooner than mine.  
 

4 hours ago, teamschreiba said:

I just started using this as well although the amount I’m dosing is extremely small. I just wanted to start to get in a routine right from the start. I started using based on simplicity and the need for only one dosing pump/tube. Link to my build is in my signature. 
 

There’s a very long Reefdudes video on YouTube where he talks with one of the Tropic Marin reps about AFR and carbocalcium and the impression I got was that the carbon dosing effect from AFR was very small.  I don’t run a skimmer so we’ll see how it works out! 

 

 

Thanks for chiming in!!  I’m already following your sweet build. 
 

I really want this to be an open discussion on AFR, and not necessarily about whether it will, or won’t, work with my specific system.  I’m just very intrigued by the prospect of such product for nano reef community in general, and hope to hear from others who are using, researching, or thinking of using AFR. So please share away!

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The precipitate was red right? If so the folks at Tropic Marin addressed that, apparently trace amounts of iron precipitate out over time and they weren't able to find a way to stop it.

 

Quote

Hans-Werner
"I am sorry, I didn't follow this thread for a while.
The orange precipitate is iron. In my experience it doesn't matter much if a bit of the iron settles out. The iron demand of corals seems to be very low, some other trace metals seem much more important."

Source

I recently switched myself, but, unless you're just keeping whatever can withstand amphi dinos and skeletal band disease, my tank's not something to be used as an example.
I anticipate it will not work nearly as well for the fields of dragons breath seachem two-part was growing out.

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Regarding the whether you can exceed the maximum suggested dosing amount, Lou Ekus (CEO of Tropic Marin) responded on R2R with this answer (link) :

 

"Although we don't actually "recommend" exceeding the maximum recommended daily dose, I know of lots of aquarists that do dose AFR in excess of that dosage. So I'm quite sure that exceeding that dose by some smallish amount, should not be a problem. In fact, I know of a few people at greatly exceed that recommended dosage. One of those is dosing 3 times the recommendation each day. So I would say to not worry too much about that recommendation as a "hard number". While keeping an eye on your corals and the system as a whole, is always a good idea. If everything is thriving, no issues with pests, and the parameters are all looking in your desired range.....then go for it!"

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Worth noting it's also addressed in the DIY thread I linked a couple of times, it seems their guidelines evolved more into "starting-recommendations" over time and quite a few folks were pointed toward dosing for consumption *or* (iirc) mixing up batches with a higher concentration of the carbocalc.

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15 hours ago, mitten_reef said:

I really want this to be an open discussion on AFR, and not necessarily about whether it will, or won’t, work with my specific system.  I’m just very intrigued by the prospect of such product for nano reef community in general, and hope to hear from others who are using, researching, or thinking of using AFR. So please share away!

Don't get me wrong, I think AFR is fantastic and I think it can really be a game changer for dosing in Nanos and other small-ish systems for the vast majority of us. Single dosing pump and not too expensive as long as your volume and usage is fairly low - there is little drawback. I'll be using it in my next tank (or current one if I don't upgrade fast enough) while continuing to use Kalk so I can keep my dose low (and cheap!). My main issue with AFR is that there are drawbacks, but TM is not upfront about them.

 

2 minutes ago, Cannedfish said:

Regarding the whether you can exceed the maximum suggested dosing amount, Lou Ekus (CEO of Tropic Marin) responded on R2R with this answer (link) :

 

"Although we don't actually "recommend" exceeding the maximum recommended daily dose, I know of lots of aquarists that do dose AFR in excess of that dosage. So I'm quite sure that exceeding that dose by some smallish amount, should not be a problem. In fact, I know of a few people at greatly exceed that recommended dosage. One of those is dosing 3 times the recommendation each day. So I would say to not worry too much about that recommendation as a "hard number". While keeping an eye on your corals and the system as a whole, is always a good idea. If everything is thriving, no issues with pests, and the parameters are all looking in your desired range.....then go for it!"

 

I think as long as you understand (mostly) what's going on when you dose AFR and know what the limitations and likely side effects are, you can deal with them up to a certain point. While I think AFR is a fantastic solution for a nano, they also have the highest potential for running into issues.

 

Also, FWIW, I think Lou's answer is a CYA response and he carefully chose his words. I really, really wish they were more upfront about why they chose that maximum dose to and lay out for people considering going beyond that dose what the possible drawbacks are. They absolutely have the high-level chemistry expertise to go into all of it.

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5 minutes ago, jservedio said:

Don't get me wrong, I think AFR is fantastic and I think it can really be a game changer for dosing in Nanos and other small-ish systems for the vast majority of us. Single dosing pump and not too expensive as long as your volume and usage is fairly low - there is little drawback. I'll be using it in my next tank (or current one if I don't upgrade fast enough) while continuing to use Kalk so I can keep my dose low (and cheap!). My main issue with AFR is that there are drawbacks, but TM is not upfront about them.

 

 

I think as long as you understand (mostly) what's going on when you dose AFR and know what the limitations and likely side effects are, you can deal with them up to a certain point. While I think AFR is a fantastic solution for a nano, they also have the highest potential for running into issues.

 

Also, FWIW, I think Lou's answer is a CYA response and he carefully chose his words. I really, really wish they were more upfront about why they chose that maximum dose to and lay out for people considering going beyond that dose what the possible drawbacks are. They absolutely have the high-level chemistry expertise to go into all of it.

Is the main drawback to high AFR doses a O2 limitation? IF so, is there ways to mitigate this potential issue (i.e. scrubber maybe, additional flow)? You mentioned kalk? For a small system do you think the easiest and safest way to utilize kalk would be to add it to the ATO and have it act as a sort of alk & cal supplement? Personally, I have always been hesitant to add kalk to the ATO as I'm not convinced my evaporation rates are stable enough. But with low kalk concentrations this might not be as big of an issue as I make it out to be (or maybe my evaporation rates are more stable than I think?). Or should someone consider also dosing 2-part toward the upper limits of AFR doses?

 

Not trying to derail Mitten's thread to be tank specific, I only ask because I am going to be approaching the upper limits sooner than later (I'm at 5mls/day and the upper limit for my water volume is 7.5 ml / day... and I may or may not have one or two SPS frags...).

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FWIW, I haven't come across a single instance of someone having PH issues from AFR, given the number of people doing off-brand, off-concentration, custom-doses of AFR I would have expected something to come-up by now - especially with how quick reefers are to blame quite-literally anything on any recent change. It also really doesn't take much 02 saturation at-all to keep your animals well, so I doubt it would be much of an issue even with an overdose.

Running kalk at the same time does kind of seem like an ideal situation to keep dissolved C02 from becoming an issue, so I think @jservedio really has the ideal situation and solution - at least to the best of what I can reason out (and quite a few in the DIY thread are running the same setup).
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

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mitten_reef
51 minutes ago, jservedio said:

My main issue with AFR is that there are drawbacks, but TM is not upfront about them.

 

51 minutes ago, jservedio said:

I really, really wish they were more upfront about why they chose that maximum dose to and lay out for people considering going beyond that dose what the possible drawbacks are. They absolutely have the high-level chemistry expertise to go into all of it.

 

care to elaborate or hypothesize on what the drawback might be at the upper limit? from what I gathered, users should look out for:

  • low PH, due to increased CO2 as bacterial activity increases, or even lowered O2
  • low nutrients, nutrient bottoming out - again, those pesky bacteria and their other metabolic requirements
  • should one worry that other trace element concentrations may not be uptake at the same rates as ca/alk/mg?
  • any others?
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I'm jumping in on this thread because I'm really interested in following the discussion. To jump directly to the questions posed:

  1. what were you using before? Tropic Marin Carbo-calcium
  2. how long has it been since you've converted to AFR? At least a year, maybe a little longer?
  3. First impression (optional?) I love the ease of a single dose and felt the same about Carbo-calcium, the reason I switched was because All-for-Reef is a more complete solution vs. Carbo-calcium which is basically a two-part. I work at a store that consistently uses Tropic Marin products and have seen Lou speak several times and have had a few discussions with him about various products. All-for-reef seems like best for my set-up and I've not noticed any negatives so far. With that being said, it is not super cost effective once you move into dosing for larger systems. Currently I am dosing about 4 ml per day and my alk stays at about 7.8 dkh One other point to make is that this product is to be used to maintain stability, but if you need to raise calcium or alkalinity, it is important to use two-part (can't remember the exact reason, but it has to do with chemistry and nutrient uptake). 
  4. provide a link to you tank thread so those who are interested can follow: I will be creating a thread for all of my tanks within the next day or so, but you can follow me @northern_reefs on instagram until then. 

 

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27 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

 

 

care to elaborate or hypothesize on what the drawback might be at the upper limit? from what I gathered, users should look out for:

  • low PH, due to increased CO2 as bacterial activity increases, or even lowered O2
  • low nutrients, nutrient bottoming out - again, those pesky bacteria and their other metabolic requirements
  • should one worry that other trace element concentrations may not be uptake at the same rates as ca/alk/mg?
  • any others?

To be completely honest, regarding the max-dose concerns, ALL two-part and aquarium products have "do not exceed" warnings on them - most of which are totally-arbitrary - P04, N03, Amino's, IIRC some filter media have non-liability "dose" disclaimers on them. I spend allot of time debunking fake-science and trying to rescue people from pseudoscience/conspiracy-forums/boards; aquarium products are different and do rely on allot of "We believe it does this unproven thing" "science", but AFR doesn't have much of that feel to it.
The discussions (and approval) between established experts and the TM team, and their openness (to the degree of telling people how to make it themselves, even with other brands) just isn't what you see with snake-oil, especially because nothing here is really "voodoo-chemistry" or silicon-valley/hollywood "sciencey fast-talk", it's all pretty straightforward (what makes it complicated is our systems being complicated).
 

Trace elements, can't comment, probably could accumulate over time and even cause issues, but that would be an issue with any 2-part which has trace elements (quite a few do).

 

Not to step on anyone's toes by throwing another reply onto the thread or to come-across as dismissive, there are definitely real potential drawbacks which legitimately simply don't exist with other 2-part dosing methods and I'm, in no way, qualified to tell you where, why, or when they'll show up (or if they will/to-what-degree they'll be a concern).

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2 hours ago, Cannedfish said:

for a small system do you think the easiest and safest way to utilize kalk would be to add it to the ATO and have it act as a sort of alk & cal supplement? Personally, I have always been hesitant to add kalk to the ATO as I'm not convinced my evaporation rates are stable enough. But with low kalk concentrations this might not be as big of an issue as I make it out to be (or maybe my evaporation rates are more stable than I think?). Or should someone consider also dosing 2-part toward the upper limits of AFR doses?

I am super biased when it comes to kalk because I've been using it for so long, so all the intricacies are at the front of my mind, so to me, it seems really simple: fill ATO, dump in kalk, mix it up, put the lid on, and don't touch it for 15 days. But, as with everything, there are pros and cons and kalk is no different and there is a learning curve. I dose a little over 1 dkh/day, but that is rising and I am approaching the maximum that I feel comfortable dosing. In order for me to do that successfully, I am definitely making sacrifices. I can probably make a thread or guide for using kalk my way in the ATO though lots of other people use a doser for Kalk through a reactor since it's more precise. Don't want to derail the conversation about AFR.

 

1 hour ago, mitten_reef said:

care to elaborate or hypothesize on what the drawback might be at the upper limit? from what I gathered, users should look out for:

  • low PH, due to increased CO2 as bacterial activity increases, or even lowered O2
  • low nutrients, nutrient bottoming out - again, those pesky bacteria and their other metabolic requirements
  • should one worry that other trace element concentrations may not be uptake at the same rates as ca/alk/mg?
  • any others?

That's pretty much everything I'd be concerned about. And again, I don't think those are anything you can't deal with pretty easily other than the possible trace element build up or possible toxicity. What gives me pause is that the maximum dose is only 1.4 dkh/day - they must have chosen that number for some reason. I just really wished that TM had some more information available or some sort of guide for higher usage tanks or at least put out more information about those choices. While it is absolutely a fact that the bacterial activity will increase, just how much is anyone's guess and how severe any possible side effects will be I just don't know. I'm sure as it increases in popularity, people who actually know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to chemistry will actually look into.

 

I'm not trying to be a downer or convince you not to use it - as I said I'll probably be using it too in the very near future. I just think anyone using it in a really high usage tank should be extra careful switching over since it is an entirely different animal when compared to 2-part.

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14 hours ago, jservedio said:

Don't get me wrong, I think AFR is fantastic and I think it can really be a game changer for dosing in Nanos and other small-ish systems for the vast majority of us.

Even for a beginner dosing system to avoid having to grok ALL of the complexities all at once.....slowly phase 2part (or whatever) in as AFP seems to be feeling "expensive".  

 

I did a couple of  the various "all in ones" that were available when I was starting out.   First, for me, was water changes (Duh) with Reef Crystals.  Then Liquid Reef.  Then Reef Elemental (dry liquid reef, more or less).  Then two-part. (And some others later.)  I think that made a great progression which tracked well with my experience level as well as with the progressive demands of the tank.  Seems like AFR would fit into that kind of regime really well.

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  • 1 month later...

It seems my current 4.1g pico (link in sig) is in need of some dosing. The dKH, which used to sit at a stable 8.6 dKH, is now dropping to 7.7 dKH about 3 days after a water change (it's usually around 9.7 dKH immediately after a water change). I'm currently using Red Sea Coral Pro which supposedly mixes at 11-12 dKH and performing 40% water changes about twice per week.

 

In the past, I used Salifert's All-In-One with an IceCap dosing pump and it worked well enough, though I certainly did not test my alkalinity consistently enough back then. The IceCap can dose as little as 1mL at a time, but I feel like I'm better off with a pump that can dose 0.1mL at a time given the tiny amounts I'll be dosing. I assume it's usually better to dose little bits throughout the day rather than all at once? Or should I just dilute the All-for-Reef and use the IceCap?

 

I've been considering All-for-Reef for quite a while, do you think it's worth it to get some and just start dosing manually each day until I settle on a dosing pump? Or should I take a more simple approach and just toss some Kalkwasser into my ATO reservoir? 

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Kalk is probably the best solution, if you want to do AFR I recommend making your own w/o the trace elements. You can dilute, or just dose larger amounts less-frequently, I don't think relatively small swings in the AM + PM, or even just once a day are something to be concerned about.

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2 hours ago, Amphrites said:

Kalk is probably the best solution, if you want to do AFR I recommend making your own w/o the trace elements. You can dilute, or just dose larger amounts less-frequently, I don't think relatively small swings in the AM + PM, or even just once a day are something to be concerned about.

Yeah, the small swings were never an issue in the past and I'm keeping less sensitive coral now (no SPS), plus my current water changes cause more of a swing than dosing 1mL of AFR would. My main concern is that my evaporation rates are not super consistent (I also use a fan for cooling) whereas the dosing pump would be (unless the power goes off that is due to the way the IceCap is programmed).

 

Do you recommend the self-mixed without trace elements due to cost or possible build up of trace elements? Given I do large frequent water changes, I don't know if build up of trace elements would really be an issue worth sacrificing the convenience of pre-mixed for. 

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