Sps blues....

[justinkdenny]

To all who have commented, thank you for your input.  I hope this doesn't turn into a mudslinging event. That's not at all what I want.  @mcarrollI did see the troll comment.   You just have to look over that stuff.  I agree that high random flow is great.  I just tried not to point powerheads directly at corals. I have the rfg to hopefully help distribute flow.  Im still trying to figure out how to utilize the powerhead to benefit the corals the most.  I have seen lots of tanks like mine look real good with the same type of flow or less so maybe they are positioned better.  Between my two pumps, I'm looking at around 520 gph on a 10 gallon which if my math is right is 52x turnover which I thought was high.  I do understand that its probably lower because of the vca rfg and pumps haven't been cleaned in a few months. I also think my phosphates and nitrates are to high but I'm really against using chemicals to lower them to fast.  I would rather have a few struggling corals than to have dinos again.  I also believe that a little elevated levels helps with coral coloration but mine is too high.  

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, seabass said:

However, these tanks are usually more mature, and it might not be advisable to keep elevated levels of nutrients in a young tank (as excessive algae can become problematic).

Agreed.  Control of algae outbreaks (or better, prevention) is WAY more important than concern over "high levels" of nutrients.  

 

As far as I can tell, the only "real" concern for nutrients is running out in a new system.  That condition seems indisputably to lead to bad things.

 

5 hours ago, jservedio said:

This isn't really true  - from a biological standpoint, asexual propagation is not the same thing as sexual reproduction - it's is, proverbially speaking, just kicking the can down the road.

Quote

Coral_420 said: "Says the asexually-limited species!  Harharhar."

😉

 

Asexual (vegetative) spreading is a life strategy for corals.  It spreads their DNA.  I think that's still the definition of success for life.

 

A more interesting/germane line of inquiry (to me at least) is: "Why is vegetative reproduction so successful for them?  Why is it more likely for them under high-phosphate conditions?  What benefits does that confer that we're (apparently) not thinking about?  (Given: If the trait was any manner of liability, it would have been selected against.)"

 

5 hours ago, jservedio said:

While this part I am speaking purely from experience, the growth patterns and branch thickness of SPS corals drastically changes as phosphates creep up over 0.15 ppm. IME, branching SPS corals tend to create fewer, far-thinner, and longer branches with incomplete corallites that are extremely brittle once the phosphate level gets too high. Take from that what you will.

Thank you for each time you put that in a thread....what I take from that mostly is that there are far too few reports from sufccessful reefers that run REALLY high phosphate levels.  

 

Off-hand, I can name you, me, Paul_b and the Steinhart Aquarium as (at least) four venues...and some of us really aren't all that high.  Even so I'll bet there are enough parallels that we could see the why's and how's more or less clearly if we could all get together and compare notes.  (I'm sure there are other "silent high-nutrient reefers" out there...hopefully many.  There do not appear to be that many ULNS types left.)

 

2 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

I also think my phosphates and nitrates are to high but I'm really against using chemicals to lower them to fast.

With good light and flow, and a stable input of nutrients (can be normal once all the livestock is in) there is no level of nutrients that is "too high" to your corals...not as far as I can tell.  All of those things are within our control and not that hard to attain.

 

I think you're pretty much there with the tank as it is....as long as those SPS are growing nicely and pretty fast, I wouldn't worry too much about sad looking polyps at the base.  Once they get established out in better flow conditions, it's very possible (tho don't count on it) that they might re-grow tissue toward the base.  Monti's are definitely capable. 

 

(BTW:  Tissue loss/STN/RTN is not what we're looking at....that is a big deal and is not what it looks like in your photos/movies.)

 

For what it's worth...

 

In the wild, "nutrient problems" are related to disturbances made to finely balanced, highly efficient ecosystems (ie. reefs)...usually caused by humans.  

 

These disturbances are directly analogous for us to (among other things) removing the herbivores from your tank or running an auto-feeder 24/7 on your tank....or often both.  

 

Either of those things has a cascading effect in the wild because of specific aspects of that ecosystem....for example, there is no massive daily input of phosphates to balance out demand created by nitrogen run-off from human activities.  By way of contrast, any excess demand for phosphate caused by "surplus" nitrogen in our tanks is easily offset (in terms of our corals needs) by the massive inputs of phosphate that our tanks receive on a daily basis from the foods we add.

[justinkdenny]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

 

Off-hand, I can name you, me, Paul_b and the Steinhart Aquarium as (at least) four venues...and some of us really aren't all that high.  Even so I'll bet there are enough parallels that we could see the why's and how's more or less clearly if we could all get together and compare notes.  (I'm sure there are other "silent high-nutrient reefers" out there...hopefully many.  There do not appear to be that many ULNS types left.

I watch the YouTube videos melev's reef puts up weekly.  His tank is awesome,  although not a nano, and he has crazy high nitrates and he says he doesn't worry about phosphates  although he does add chemicals to lower phosphates when they get out of hand.  

[mcarroll]

Wasn't sure about melev's levels – so we'll count his tank as another one.  I know there's got to be plenty out there....just not everyone is on forums every day like we tend to be.

[mitten_reef]

On 7/2/2020 at 12:03 PM, GraniteReefer said:

Not even sure mccarrol has a tank so everyone take what he says with a grain of salt.  Pics or you don’t have a tank

 

On 7/5/2020 at 5:26 AM, mcarroll said:

It's been pointed out elsewhere that sometimes my posts can be a bit "gruff."  🧐

 

There is clearly a "troll" here in this thread. 👹 (If you blinked you might have missed him.)

 

 

19 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

 @mcarrollI did see the troll comment.   You just have to look over that stuff.  

Is it trolling when it is true that @mcarroll had rarely shown us his personal reef tank, in fact the only update was of the tank still unfilled 🤷‍♂️?  When's the last time you updated us with your tank status mr @mcarroll??  

 

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/407090-tunze-reefpack-all-in-one-125-gallons/

 

Yes, I appreciate your textbook-like knowledge.  And yes, I had stated that I won't be engaging you further with photo request in our last pm exchange, calling another member a troll when he simply asking for the obvious is uncalled for.  I think every member should be able to see where their advices are coming from beyond research paper citations.  how do you translate them into your personal tank keeping?  what are your direct outcome experience? 

 

Maybe you would be so kind to share with @justinkdenny your tank update?  

 

 

 

[jservedio]

17 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Thank you for each time you put that in a thread....what I take from that mostly is that there are far too few reports from sufccessful reefers that run REALLY high phosphate levels.  

 

Off-hand, I can name you, me, Paul_b and the Steinhart Aquarium as (at least) four venues...and some of us really aren't all that high.  Even so I'll bet there are enough parallels that we could see the why's and how's more or less clearly if we could all get together and compare notes.  (I'm sure there are other "silent high-nutrient reefers" out there...hopefully many.  There do not appear to be that many ULNS types left.)

The only thing all of these tanks have in common is that they are all old, far older than nearly every other tank here. Paul_b's tank was started like 15 years before I was even born and they are all densely packed with mature coral.

 

I personally don't think phosphates as high as mine are ideal, or even a good thing - if I could keep my phosphates down at 0.05-0.07 ppm and stable, I would. My nutrient levels just sort of settled where they did and any major adjustments to them cause them to start fluctuating before settling back in where they are. The reason for this is because my system was built before I knew anything at all and it just can't really be maintained in a sensible way. My new system is being built right, so in a few months from now, my phosphates wont be that high. While I will say that I do get fantastic color from my SPS, my growth rate is abysmally slow compared to people like mitten_reef, teenyreef, and many others on this site who keep SPS long term and it drives me crazy.

 

As for the algae, I would absolutely have nuisance algae all over if there were somewhere for it to grow. I've literally run out of space on my rock that receives light, so there is just nowhere for it to take hold. The tiny areas I do have light touching rock, I have algae - thankfully anything bigger than an 1-2 sq. inches is covered in macro that prevents nastier algae. Also, my corals are pretty much all mature colonies, which are able to just grow right over any algae - if I had lots of frags, it would be a different story. I do get lots of algae on my sand, but my wrasse keeps that at bay by stirring it up every day which keeps it to a minimum.

 

When I say there is simply no place for algae to grow, I mean there is literally not a single square inch that receives light for algae to start growing. A 1 year old tank is simply not going to have that. This is an entire half of my tank and you can see that anywhere algae has a place to grow, it will grow - even in the tiny bits of dead skeleton from when corals fight each other, within days. My sand is also really nasty. From the top down, you can see there just isn't any places with light for algae to grow... This is the only reason my tank isn't an algae factory. Just look at older photos of my tank - it was an algae factory.

 

[jservedio]

20 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

I agree that high random flow is great.  I just tried not to point powerheads directly at corals. I have the rfg to hopefully help distribute flow.  Im still trying to figure out how to utilize the powerhead to benefit the corals the most.  I have seen lots of tanks like mine look real good with the same type of flow or less so maybe they are positioned better.  Between my two pumps, I'm looking at around 520 gph on a 10 gallon which if my math is right is 52x turnover which I thought was high.  I do understand that its probably lower because of the vca rfg and pumps haven't been cleaned in a few months. I also think my phosphates and nitrates are to high but I'm really against using chemicals to lower them to fast.  I would rather have a few struggling corals than to have dinos again.  I also believe that a little elevated levels helps with coral coloration but mine is too high.  

I really don't think flow is an issue for you, at least right now. As your SPS get bigger and more dense, you will likely need to up the flow to compensate, but in your video all of the polyps were moving really well. I really like a lot of flow, but this isn't something you need to go out and spend a bunch of money on right away.

 

You don't have to use any chemicals or anything like that to get your phosphates down to reasonable levels - just doing a bit more frequent (or bigger) water changes is going to help a lot - especially if you are using a turkey baster to blast any detritus up into the water before doing the water change or just using your siphon to suck it out where it accumulates. I saw that you started using the Brightwell salt recently (great stuff, just expensive!), so doing big 3-5 gallon water changes isn't going to cause spikes.

 

I like @seabass's suggestion of 0.03ppm and think it's a great guideline, however, since you have had dino issues in the past and your tank isn't brand new, I think it makes sense to shoot for a slightly higher number to give yourself a little bit of a buffer - something like 0.05ppm or thereabouts.

 

Keeping SPS, particularly acros, in a nano tank is not easy and there is a steep learning curve. With so little room for error, you are going to lose a few. Don't let that discourage you and keep at it if it's something you really want to do. I would be willing to bet your alk spike from a month ago is what caused your current issues and your phosphates aren't helping the situation. If you keep your alk stable moving forward, things will absolutely recover.

 

I had two mishaps with my alkalinity in the last 3 years (last one was this past November) where I had downward spikes and probably 1/3 of my acros started to STN. Those were 1-day events and everything was stable before and after and everything not only recovered fully, but regrew directly over the areas they receded from. The only SPS I haven't seen regrow over dead skeleton almost immediately is birdsnest, everything else just re-encrusts over it's dead skeleton.