Sps blues....

[justinkdenny]

Well my pc rainbow has bit the dust.  I don't know what's going on. Alk has been stable. I wasn't too upset since it was my first try at acropora.  Now my bubblegum digi and purple stylophora are looking bad.  What's weird is the ends are showing new growth but the bases are not showing good polyp extension.  The stylophora has been super healthy with great growth since I've had it.  I have changed carbon, done multiple water changes a d when I test, parameters are in check.  What do you guys think?

[NoOneLikesADryTang]

Just looking at your numbers provided, I think you're phosphate is really high for SPS. SPS like phosphate levels that are much lower (below .1, often in a .01-.05 range).

[justinkdenny]

4 hours ago, NoOneLikesADryTang said:

Just looking at your numbers provided, I think you're phosphate is really high for SPS. SPS like phosphate levels that are much lower (below .1, often in a .01-.05 range).

I agree they are high.  They have been high though since before I added sps quite a while ago and the corals were growing with good polyp extension until recently.

[jcreefer]

Did you start with dry rock or live rock?

Do you have a skimmer?

Clean Up crew?

 

Try bring phosphate down.  Couple of things to try:

• Cut back on feeding (possible source of phos and nitrate)
• Test
• If you choose to employ chemical control, Phosguard and Purigen works well
• Skim wet
• Test
• You can also dose Microbacter7 if your bacterial population or variety is low
• Test

-Jeff

[mcarroll]

On 6/29/2020 at 10:21 AM, justinkdenny said:

I have changed carbon, done multiple water changes a d when I test, parameters are in check.  What do you guys think?

Stop using carbon (or use 1/2 the amount) and stop doing water changes for a little while.

 

Tank temperature seems a little low....try picking it up to 80ºF+

 

It's not phosphates.

 

Can you post a current pic?

 

What do you think about your flow?   To me it sounds like a potential flow issue.  A pic would help to know for sure.  A movie with some flake food circulating in the tank would be even better.

 

Are you doing those tests/What's giving you the four digits of precision on the salinity test?  (And why does salinity appear to be increasing?)

[justinkdenny]

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Stop using carbon (or use 1/2 the amount) and stop doing water changes for a little while.

 

Tank temperature seems a little low....try picking it up to 80ºF+

 

It's not phosphates.

 

Can you post a current pic?

 

What do you think about your flow?   To me it sounds like a potential flow issue.  A pic would help to know for sure.  A movie with some flake food circulating in the tank would be even better.

 

Are you doing those tests/What's giving you the four digits of precision on the salinity test?  (And why does salinity appear to be increasing?)

1. Maybe I'm using too much activated carbon.

2. I thought 78 was what people shoot for?

3. I'll try to get a good pic and movie tonight when lights are on.

4. I run an upgraded sicce 1.0 with a rfg for my return and a sicca nano powerhead in the tank.  I thought I might have to much flow.

5. I use a hydrometer.   If the line is between 1.025 and 1.026, I call it 1.0255.  It seems like it might be trending up but could possibly be test error.  I do calibrate ever time I test though.

 

Thanks for your input.

[jservedio]

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It's not phosphates.

There is an extremely good chance those phosphate levels are seriously hurting - elevated phosphate levels inhibit calcification and those levels are very, very high. While I run very high nutrient levels in my tank as well (as high as 0.12ppm PO4), and am a huge proponent of not starving corals, 0.25ppm is extremely high, especially for a newer tank.

 

There are dozens of studies on elevated phosphate levels in both the lab conditions and out on the actual reef and in every case, phosphate levels in the 0.2ppm range reduced calcification by nearly 50%.

 

I do agree about removing or dramatically reducing GAC.

 

Justin, have you had any alkalinity swings in the last month or two? With many SPS, particularly acropora, it can take weeks for the effects of an alkalinity swing to become apparent. If you have had stable alkalinity for a few months, that isn't the issue. How much carbon do you run and what type? 78F is totally fine - my tank has been at 78 for almost 10 years.

 

Edited to add:

I highly doubt you have too much flow - I have never seen too much flow for pretty much any SPS. My biggest, happiest, and fastest-growing SPS all grow directly out into the flow of an MP10 cranked to 100% and just 8" directly in front of it. Unless you have a powerful powerhead pointing directly at it from a couple inches, it's extremely unlikely to be too much flow - especially for a stag coral like PC Rainbow.

 

Your salinity is fine. Mine fluctuates way, way more than yours does and it's never once caused an issue. Mine is regularly between 34-36ppt. Being off 1ppt in salinity is only a difference of 2.85%, so it isn't throwing other parameters off as much as you'd think.

[MainelyReefer]

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Stop using carbon (or use 1/2 the amount) and stop doing water changes for a little while.

 

Tank temperature seems a little low....try picking it up to 80ºF+

 

It's not phosphates.

 

Can you post a current pic?

 

What do you think about your flow?   To me it sounds like a potential flow issue.  A pic would help to know for sure.  A movie with some flake food circulating in the tank would be even better.

 

Are you doing those tests/What's giving you the four digits of precision on the salinity test?  (And why does salinity appear to be increasing?)

Not even sure mccarrol has a tank so everyone take what he says with a grain of salt.  Pics or you don’t have a tank

[Break]

36 minutes ago, jservedio said:

There is an extremely good chance those phosphate levels are seriously hurting - elevated phosphate levels inhibit calcification and those levels are very, very high. While I run very high nutrient levels in my tank as well (as high as 0.12ppm PO4), and am a huge proponent of not starving corals, 0.25ppm is extremely high, especially for a newer tank.

 

There are dozens of studies on elevated phosphate levels in both the lab conditions and out on the actual reef and in every case, phosphate levels in the 0.2ppm range reduced calcification by nearly 50%.

 

I do agree about removing or dramatically reducing GAC.

 

Justin, have you had any alkalinity swings in the last month or two? With many SPS, particularly acropora, it can take weeks for the effects of an alkalinity swing to become apparent. If you have had stable alkalinity for a few months, that isn't the issue. How much carbon do you run and what type? 78F is totally fine - my tank has been at 78 for almost 10 years.

 

Edited to add:

I highly doubt you have too much flow - I have never seen too much flow for pretty much any SPS. My biggest, happiest, and fastest-growing SPS all grow directly out into the flow of an MP10 cranked to 100% and just 8" directly in front of it. Unless you have a powerful powerhead pointing directly at it from a couple inches, it's extremely unlikely to be too much flow - especially for a stag coral like PC Rainbow.

 

Your salinity is fine. Mine fluctuates way, way more than yours does and it's never once caused an issue. Mine is regularly between 34-36ppt. Being off 1ppt in salinity is only a difference of 2.85%, so it isn't throwing other parameters off as much as you'd think.

+1 to all of this.

Throwing in some Phosguard would be an easy way to bring those phosphate levels down a bit.

 

I also think you need more flow.

[jcreefer]

As everyone said, your main issue at the moment is the high phosphate level.  A larger than normal water change is a good idea.  Then test the phosphate again and see what the level is.  Then some sort of phosphate containment strategy, either Phospoguard, or GFO.  Your target is 0.02-0.03 ppm, anything lower is starvation for your SPS.  Also, make sure your Alk is as stable as possible, SPS are not as forgiving as LPS when it comes to Alk swings.

 

Jeff

[justinkdenny]

5 hours ago, jservedio said:

There is an extremely good chance those phosphate levels are seriously hurting - elevated phosphate levels inhibit calcification and those levels are very, very high. While I run very high nutrient levels in my tank as well (as high as 0.12ppm PO4), and am a huge proponent of not starving corals, 0.25ppm is extremely high, especially for a newer tank.

 

There are dozens of studies on elevated phosphate levels in both the lab conditions and out on the actual reef and in every case, phosphate levels in the 0.2ppm range reduced calcification by nearly 50%.

 

I do agree about removing or dramatically reducing GAC.

 

Justin, have you had any alkalinity swings in the last month or two? With many SPS, particularly acropora, it can take weeks for the effects of an alkalinity swing to become apparent. If you have had stable alkalinity for a few months, that isn't the issue. How much carbon do you run and what type? 78F is totally fine - my tank has been at 78 for almost 10 years.

 

Edited to add:

I highly doubt you have too much flow - I have never seen too much flow for pretty much any SPS. My biggest, happiest, and fastest-growing SPS all grow directly out into the flow of an MP10 cranked to 100% and just 8" directly in front of it. Unless you have a powerful powerhead pointing directly at it from a couple inches, it's extremely unlikely to be too much flow - especially for a stag coral like PC Rainbow.

 

Your salinity is fine. Mine fluctuates way, way more than yours does and it's never once caused an issue. Mine is regularly between 34-36ppt. Being off 1ppt in salinity is only a difference of 2.85%, so it isn't throwing other parameters off as much as you'd think.

I did have an alk swing a little over a month ago and that caused my pc rainbow to rtn.  I caught it in time and fragged it and saved it.  The frags actually colored up better after the swing.  The swing was caused by reef crystals salt mix having high alk levels in a water change.   I should have checked the alk before adding the new water.  I switched to brightwell salt slowly to get all to a more natural seawater alk level.  Things have been pretty consistent for a while with calcium magnesium and alk slowly getting to reef levels.  Now even with the stable parameters I lost the pc rainbow and the bubblegum digitata looks terrible.  Funny thing is that the tip is growing every day and looks good but the base is turning white.  It doesn't seem like rtn though like the pc rainbow.

 

Back story on the high phosphates.   I had dinos early on in the tanks life from running ultra low phosphates and nitrates.   I finally beat then by increasing phosphates and nitrates and doing a bunch of other stuff.  I haven't been able to get the numbers down as low as I want since but am afraid of using chemicals because I dont want to bottom them out and get dinos again. They are the worst!  I had a pod rubble basket in my back chamber for diversity,  for dinos, that was a deitris trap that I have since removed.   Hopefully that will help with phosphates. 

[justinkdenny]

 

Not a good video but it shows the polyps dying and the base turning white.  The tip is actually growing every day and looks good.

[Thrassian Atoll]

Really need to know how the numbers have gone over the past month to know for sure.  Alk swings, nutrient swings, all could play an important role on why there’s stn.  

[justinkdenny]

8 minutes ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

Really need to know how the numbers have gone over the past month to know for sure.  Alk swings, nutrient swings, all could play an important role on why there’s stn.  

Since june 6th. It's been pretty stable.  I ordered a hanna checker to hopefully get rid of user test error.  I use salifert right now and it's hard to judge color changes. I'm also trying to see how much alk drops so I can start dosing hence the latest dip in numbers.  Never had to dose with reef crystals.   Numbers were always to high with it.

[justinkdenny]

Calcium and mag.  Numbers getting better after changing salt.

 

[justinkdenny]

@mcarroll

 

Not a very good video but hopefully you can see water flow. 

 

 

[Thrassian Atoll]

It’s going to sound weird but even with your phosphate at .2, your tank looks too clean to me.  Lack of nutrient import vs export.  

[mcarroll]

I think your SPS are in somewhat of a flow dead zone there at the top, with the flow going around them, and below them.

 

(top-down view)

 

Looks like flow is nice and strong around three sides of the tank (back, left and front), but only down low.  

 

If the SPS at the top are catching any significant flow at all, I didn't see any polyp movement caught by the camera.

 

You're there in person though....does any of that make sense based on what you see?

 

What I would do at minimum is to set up a second flow source that can be run alternately to the current pump....off and on every few hours like the tides:

 

I think one should be placed relatively low in the tank and angled up and the other should be placed relatively high and angled low a bit (I think your current unit is like that).

 

I also think a lower placement in the tank would be good just for growout purposes....those sticks are going to get tall.  😃

[justinkdenny]

20 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I think your SPS are in somewhat of a flow dead zone there at the top, with the flow going around them, and below them.

 

(top-down view)

 

Looks like flow is nice and strong around three sides of the tank (back, left and front), but only down low.  

 

If the SPS at the top are catching any significant flow at all, I didn't see any polyp movement caught by the camera.

 

You're there in person though....does any of that make sense based on what you see?

 

What I would do at minimum is to set up a second flow source that can be run alternately to the current pump....off and on every few hours like the tides:

 

I think one should be placed relatively low in the tank and angled up and the other should be placed relatively high and angled low a bit (I think your current unit is like that).

 

I also think a lower placement in the tank would be good just for growout purposes....those sticks are going to get tall.  😃

Here is a better video I hope that shows flow rates better.  It's harder to show on the bubblegum since it has short polyps.  Maybe I can lower the powerhead some and aim it toward the corals and surface.

 

 

[mcarroll]

Seems better on closeup, but still on the low side....naturally lower closer to the rocks were the frags are.

 

Guessing that you might continue to see polyp loss around the bases of those corals where there's very low/no flow near the rocks, but it looks like the tips that are out in the flow are healthy.

 

If you can improve flow, of course do it...especially adding a second pump, even if you don't end up moving this one.

 

But all things considered I actually wouldn't worry TOO much about he polyps disappearing at the base.  Polyps need flow, ant there just isn't much near the rock.

 

You can find the article Oceanic Forcing of Coral Reefs in the Flow section of my blog which explains some of these natural variations in flow.

 

[mcarroll]

On 7/2/2020 at 11:39 AM, jservedio said:

There are dozens of studies on elevated phosphate levels in both the lab conditions and out on the actual reef and in every case, phosphate levels in the 0.2ppm range reduced calcification by nearly 50%.

Those studies rarely test what you think they are testing....often trying to simulate some natural conditions, or a particular state of disturbance, or overtly trying to prove that nutrients cause problems...which invites confirmation bias.  (Anything "can" cause problems.) 

 

Firstly, it's a presumption that slow growth somehow denoted "unhealthy".  Somehow this presumption percoalated into the hobby as "fact".

 

That fact is very dubious as corals that grow more slowly are known to be more resilient and fast growing corals less resilient to things like damage and disease.

 

Studies only rarely (almost never) test to see if high phosphates can actually be neutral or even healthy.   That's a specific thing to look for that is generally off the radar of most scientists, but is what we are particularly interested in.

 

I would urge you and anyone else to page through the articles I've saved over the years in the Nutrients section on my blog for the articles I've found that look at these issues differently, or that otherwise include useful info on this topic.

 

My favorite is of course one of the articles pinned at the top of my blog permanently:  Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates. And I like it because it shows in one simple pic the comparison bewteen corals grown in low nutrient conditions vs high nutrient conditions...it's very clear.

 

(HN/HP=High Nitrate/High Phosphate; L=Low)

 

Another article on the topic of high phosphates that (again, I think....need to dig up a reference so I can link it) @seabass linked me to a while back experimented more along the lines of our interests and grew Acros at SUPER-high phosphate levels...even high compared to what I'm running.  (I think they tested levels up to 5.0 ppm!!)

 

Even with confirmation bias at work (they were assuming that P=trouble and were trying to look for it) they worst they could say about the frags they grew is that they were "unhealthy" because they were "more brittle" than frags grown at lower levels (related to that slow growth mentioned earlier).  

 

The problem with allowing confirmation bias to guide them is that they seemingly had to ignore LOTS of evidence that the corals were really more healthy, not less.

 

Corals are not impinged from success (success=spreading DNA) whatsoever by being brittle...if anything it allows them to engage one of their primary modes of reproduction more easily – fragging – so that they can take further advantage of the available nutrients by creating more coral surface area MUCH more quickly than they could via pure growth or via sexual reproduction.  That's a life strategy, not a health problem.

 

No bare skeleton was present on "growth tips" of those Acros grown under SUPER high-P conditions like we normally see under "low" phosphate conditions, for one thing.  Tips in their experiment had normal tissue and normal populations of Dinos and normal coloration all the way to the tip of every branch.  Apparently the corals no longer needed to keep that tissue depopulated for self-protection as they do under low-P conditions AND there was plenty of nutrition for tissue growth.

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

It's been pointed out elsewhere that sometimes my posts can be a bit "gruff."  🧐

 

There is clearly a "troll" here in this thread. 👹 (If you blinked you might have missed him.)

 

With that in mind, if you use your imagination a bit, there's a classic story that applies!

 

One of my favorites from when I was a little kid.

Three Billy Goats Gruff - Wikipedia

And a pic for those in need:

[seabass]

Yeah, people often get a little too concerned about phosphate (especially when it comes to SPS).  Calcification of coralline algae is one concern, excessive algae growth is another.  It's often the later that has aquarists limiting phosphate to control algae in young tanks.  However, the zooxanthellae in photosynthetic coral also use nutrients to provide food/energy to their host corals.

 

I have seen numerous SPS tanks that have relatively high levels of phosphate without massive algae outbreaks.  However, these tanks are usually more mature, and it might not be advisable to keep elevated levels of nutrients in a young tank (as excessive algae can become problematic).  For new tanks, I have been recommending that people keep phosphate detectable but low, like 0.03ppm.  But the level of phosphate we are talking about, isn't that harmful to most coral.

 

Phosphate is an important nutrient.  And suddenly reducing phosphate levels can cause problems as well.  IMO, lack of phosphate is likely more of a problem than high-ish levels.  Here's the article that Matt referred to above:  https://reefbuilders.com/2011/12/05/acropora-phosphate-growth/

 

Finally, people often confuse high organics with high inorganic nutrient levels.  You'll see cyano threads where nutrients are blamed for blooms; however, it's usually high organics/detritus.

[jcreefer]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting the OP to strive for an absolute zero phosphate level.  Looking though the thread, the consistent theme is lower the phosphate level.  
 

Over the last few years, aquarists has seen a shift from ULN to a more nutrient balanced approach to maintaining our tanks: going from no Nutrient to dosing nutrient.  Early on, the concern has always been eliminate phosphate with any means to combat nuisance algae growth.  Anecdotally, the common issue seen with that approach, are promotions of Dino outbreaks or chemical imbalance. Now with more evidence that nutrients (or lack of) play an importance of coral health (and directly coloration), it’s become more evident that a little nutrient is ok.  Couple knowledge and technology advances, it made ULN unfashionable. that’s not to say ULN doesn’t work, there’s plenty of tanks that are successful in that regard.  But I believe a lot of folks are finding out that approach often invite more problems than not. 
 

One of the more promising approach is big import/big export: what ever you put in, you take out.  By doing so, you balance and maintain the nutrient level your tank thrives in.  I tend to think it’s analogous to dosing, you does what the coral is consuming, and by replenishing to the same level your tank is consuming, you maintain and promote stability.  The hard part is to figure out whether X in = X out, that just takes time (and feel).
 

So in short, stay on top of your levels, and test, and use your own eyes to judge what is best for YOUR tank.  

Jeff

[jservedio]

7 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Corals are not impinged from success (success=spreading DNA) whatsoever by being brittle...if anything it allows them to engage one of their primary modes of reproduction more easily – fragging – so that they can take further advantage of the available nutrients by creating more coral surface area MUCH more quickly than they could via pure growth or via sexual reproduction.  That's a life strategy, not a health problem.

This isn't really true  - from a biological standpoint, asexual propagation is not the same thing as sexual reproduction - it's is, proverbially speaking, just kicking the can down the road. The study @seabass linked even notes that phosphates have an effect on far more things than just growth rate and zoox. concentration (specifically fecundity). I am not arguing that elevated phosphates in and of itself is a bad thing (how could I, my own tank is over 0.1ppm), but in a new tank, especially one started with dry rock with little to no coraline, extremely elevated phosphates lead to other issues, as seabass rightly points out.

 

While this part I am speaking purely from experience, the growth patterns and branch thickness of SPS corals drastically changes as phosphates creep up over 0.15 ppm. IME, branching SPS corals tend to create fewer, far-thinner, and longer branches with incomplete corallites that are extremely brittle once the phosphate level gets too high. Take from that what you will.

 

From my standpoint, OP has a simple path forward: Do more water changes to slowly bring down those phosphates while siphoning out excess detritus and be more diligent about keeping alkalinity stable while preventing spikes. In a tank that is a year old, there is no reason to be pushing the boundaries, especially when you are having issues. Flow looks perfectly fine to me.