Jump to content
second_decimal

UV Sterilization

Recommended Posts

second_decimal

i was wondering, when you introduce new fish, would a timed UV exposure cycle (say 30 days) assist in acclimation and resilience?  

Share this post


Link to post
Humblefish

It would help the fish build up resistance/immunity because they would be exposed to whatever pathogens at a sublethal concentration. However, there is a fine line between lethal/sublethal when it comes to Velvet (for example) so this strategy could backfire. You would have a greater success rate with Ich, flukes and other less virulent pathogens.

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

Ok... thank you for your reply. that’s sort of where I was heading.. I know I had considered a strict quarantine regiment for new fish. When I reviewed the procedure however, it seemed excessive for my needs. I expect to have no more than 4 fish, none of them extremely rare or Expensive. I have been running fallow for almost 2 months after an Ich/velvet episode. Now I am considering connecting UV to the system and introducing 1 or 2 fish.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Humblefish
15 hours ago, second_decimal said:

Ok... thank you for your reply. that’s sort of where I was heading.. I know I had considered a strict quarantine regiment for new fish. When I reviewed the procedure however, it seemed excessive for my needs. I expect to have no more than 4 fish, none of them extremely rare or Expensive. I have been running fallow for almost 2 months after an Ich/velvet episode. Now I am considering connecting UV to the system and introducing 1 or 2 fish.

 

 

A simpler approach would be to QT a couple of black mollies alongside: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/406744-black-molly-quarantine/

 

Don't treat/medicate unless the Molly (or the fish you are quarantining) shows signs of a disease.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

sorry.. not the sharpest knife in the drawer.. i don't follow. If i set up a qt tank, i would just preemptively treat. but it involves a lot of water changes etc. if i add mollys to the DT to see if ich has cycled through and it has not, fallow period restarts. My thinking was that fish are always exposed to and are hosts to a variety of diseases but succumb to them when their immune system is weakened from the stress of transport, water quality difference and new environment etc.. Running the UV light for a 30 day cycle (in the DT) would help newly introduced fish resist disease even when stressed by limiting the disease attack mechanisms. So introduce with the least amount of stress and run UV to limit available aggressors that attack the host. am i on the wrong path here? do i really have to ensure complete sterility for incoming fish regardless of influencing factors (cost and limited occupancy)? 

 

edit: by golly.. thank you so much for sharing your vast knowledge and experience regarding the subject matter of fish diseases with the community.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Humblefish
3 hours ago, second_decimal said:

sorry.. not the sharpest knife in the drawer.. i don't follow. If i set up a qt tank, i would just preemptively treat. but it involves a lot of water changes etc. if i add mollys to the DT to see if ich has cycled through and it has not, fallow period restarts. My thinking was that fish are always exposed to and are hosts to a variety of diseases but succumb to them when their immune system is weakened from the stress of transport, water quality difference and new environment etc.. Running the UV light for a 30 day cycle (in the DT) would help newly introduced fish resist disease even when stressed by limiting the disease attack mechanisms. So introduce with the least amount of stress and run UV to limit available aggressors that attack the host. am i on the wrong path here? do i really have to ensure complete sterility for incoming fish regardless of influencing factors (cost and limited occupancy)? 

 

edit: by golly.. thank you so much for sharing your vast knowledge and experience regarding the subject matter of fish diseases with the community.

I am suggesting using mollies in your QT as "canary fish" for future fish purchases. Cycle your QT using Biospira or some other bacteria in a bottle product. Acclimate freshwater black mollies to the newly setup QT. Add your fish to the QT (with no meds), and closely observe both them and the black mollies for signs of disease. If they show signs of disease, treat; but if no obvious physical symptoms manifest after 30 days then the fish are safe to put in your DT without the need to medicate them. Make sense?

 

The upside to this approach is you are able to QT without possibly needing to use medications which cause side effects and other issues with fish. The black mollies are very susceptible to saltwater pathogens and most parasites/worms will be more easily seen on a black colored fish.

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

Thanks.. I guess I was just trying to skip the QT all together but your approach obviously makes more sense. We will have to see how many days I will be able to get away with between water changes lol.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

just an update... i set up 10g qt with 

 

10g petco tank

penguin 100 hob

eheim 1000 for flow

pvc pieces

seachem ph & ammonia monitors

still need a thermometer

 

Used water from DP to fill 10g and everything is running. I guess i will know when its ready based on ammonia readings. i plan on dosing paraguard and observe for around 30 days. Is that enough or do i need to prophylactically dose cupramine or metro or whatever? 

 

Edit: plan adding the mollies first. 

Share this post


Link to post
mcarroll
On 6/23/2020 at 5:35 PM, second_decimal said:

i was wondering, when you introduce new fish, would a timed UV exposure cycle (say 30 days) assist in acclimation and resilience?  

UV is a very straighforward tool to use, and it's complementary with whatever else you deem appropriate.

 

If you have any question about the health of the fish you're getting (well, buying questionable fish is a problem in and of itself, but we'll assume you have no choice in the matter) then it makes perfect sense to introduce a UV filter to the system along with them.  

 

Good UV plus good mechaincal filtration can reduce the load on their immune system by 100% on things like velvet and ich.

 

UV should specifically be set up to target parasites, which is usually means using the lowest flow possible if the unit is adjustable or so rated.  Small units are usually not adjustable, so adhere to tank-size ratings.

 

Mechanical filtration has to be micron-rated...filter floss and the like isn't gonna get it done.  Diatom filtration (loading a micron filter with diatom powder) is ideal, which is sub-micron (<1µ)...but anything rated <50µ will make a difference....smaller µ is better, as we'd like to capture all parasite phases from adults on down to cysts if at all possible.  The stronger your UV, the more relaxed you can probably be on the µ rating.  If you're doing only micron filtration I think I'd select something ≤10µ.

 

Bag filters can be had down to 1µ, if your tank can run a bag filter.  A Penguin Polishing Filter is excellent for this for small/medium tanks and can do diatom poweder.  A classic Vortex XL or Magnum 350 canister filter are other examples.  If all you can run is floss-like filter media, Coralife makes PureFlo pads rated at 50µ....50µ is about the max I would think of as useful, but should still be functional...75µ screens are used in lab experiments to collect tomonts...and as it clogs it will "naturally" acquire a smaller µ rating, trapping smaller and smaller debris (and smaller parasite phases).  

image.png.6063e8d848e531f26f941d95d6795dd2.pngimage.png.29d5b632b5fce2d6b52dec815f4dc213.pngimage.png.901b17029dec2845f6acc69e6938a08e.pngimage.png.06f2e436fca79c735ee622b417556c2c.png


Using either UV or micron is good, but both together can be a very powerful aid vs parasites.  

 

READING:  Check out the most recent (January '20) article that I saved in the Fish section on my blog on this topic (focus on section 4 of the article onward for the more readable parts), as well as "Getting Acquainted withAmyloodinium ocellatum" from the Virgini Tech Extension.

 

It's worth noting that a poorly selected, or poorly installed (or even poorly maintained) UV filter will not live up to expectations.  Doing it as correctly as possible really matters.  (As simple as following manufacturer instructions in most cases.)

 

In my own experience, it's also worth putting as much investment as possible into getting higher quality fish.  That can mean a lot of things depending on your circumstances, but to make a simple example, buying fish sight-unseen or even based on a few photos should be viewed as a last resort even if it's somehow "better".  It's impossible to tell whether fish are healthy without spending some time with them watching them, their tank mates and their surroundings.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
mcarroll

TL;DR?   Keep stock levels low.  Temperature, and salinity can matter a lot.  Having a stable, healthy tank means a lot.  Having good live rock means a lot.  Get a UV filter and/or micron filter.  

 

Other factors:  A micron filter doesn't necessarily have disposable parts.  (diatom powder is optional)  A UV filter depends on installation of fresh UV bulbs every 6 months to a year, depending on the make and actual usage. 

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

👆thank you so much.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Tamberav

I think the only potential problem of putting a UV on a nano for parasites is:

 

1. Cost: those little green machines and IM UVs are not going to cut it for parasites imo. 

 

2. Heat: Depending on tank size and other factors like your house ambient temp. A good size UV can add significant amount of heat to a nano.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

About that... I am contemplating setting up a mini fridge as a chiller and to keep AB+ / Phyto to dose. I am sort of lacking color and “pop” in the tank. Everything looks a little dull and some zoa colonies are loosing colors in their tentacles. I came across an old article that mentioned temp fluctuations as a possible culprit. My temp can bounce from 78.8 at night to as a high as 82.4 in a 24hr period. That’s not great. I was thinking maybe I should raise the min temp to 80 or 81 so the fluctuations is less but imo the range should be around 78 - 79 degrees if I had a choice.

Share this post


Link to post
mcarroll
12 hours ago, Tamberav said:

. Cost: those little green machines and IM UVs are not going to cut it for parasites imo. 

Thankfully we're past opinion on the matter....it's a matter of selection and installation, which is eminently possible to do correctly.

 

They work fine....plenty of proof...at least now in 2020 there is.  Not to forget the academic material available on the subject, Look at all the dino tanks that have used them successfully.  (BTW...Velvet = dino.  Ich ≈ velvet.)

 

12 hours ago, Tamberav said:

2. Heat: Depending on tank size and other factors like your house ambient temp. A good size UV can add significant amount of heat to a nano.

I've never seen that happen over MANY deployments in my big dino thread (above), so I don't think it should be a worry for most.  (Folks with heat strapped systems are the rare exception these days.)

 

It should mean nothing more than the tank's heater runs less.

 

9 hours ago, second_decimal said:

My temp can bounce from 78.8 at night to as a high as 82.4 in a 24hr period. That’s not great. I was thinking maybe I should raise the min temp to 80 or 81 so the fluctuations is less but imo the range should be around 78 - 79 degrees if I had a choice.

A) that temperature range really isn't a big deal..doing nothing is probably a fine option, if you can stand it.  😉

B) raise the minimum temp on the tank and/or consider shutting off the heaters during the day.  (Watch, they'll still kick on occasionally even when the tank is warm.)  

 

Back in the halide days, I had 300 watts worth of light blazing on my (optimistically) 37 gallon tank which had a daytime temp of 82.9ºF.  I ran my heaters on a timer so they only kicked on AFTER lights out, and they'd hold the tank at 81.0ºF through the night.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Tamberav

I wouldn't assume that because it kills some types of dino that a small UV is an effective control of velvet. Yes I know velvet is a type of dino but that doesn't mean it behaves the exact same or multiplies at the same rate and such. Some of those units are only 3-10 watts.

 

I suppose one could do some math and check just what's needed. 

 

I was just pointing out heat is the potential negative. Some people's tanks still run hot. 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

all very interesting. i have never heard about heat being a factor for UV lights. As far as i know, flow rate (dwell time) and bulb age are the main considerations. Changed some settings and will now run 80 as the mean with hysteresis of .36. So downwards swing to 79.64 and up. Even when temps rise, the swing should around 2 degrees in the upward direction. The mini fridge idea is appealing to me because i can keep all my fish stuff (frozen food etc.) close by as well as directly dose refrigerated AB+ and phyto. i intend on coiling the hose inside the fridge to increase exposure time and an eheim 1048 external pump set to kick on/off at a preset temps. and its covid.. a little project is a welcome diversion. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
mcarroll
10 hours ago, Tamberav said:

I wouldn't assume that because it kills some types of dino that a small UV is an effective control of velvet. Yes I know velvet is a type of dino but that doesn't mean it behaves the exact same or multiplies at the same rate and such. Some of those units are only 3-10 watts.

 

I suppose one could do some math and check just what's needed. 

 

I was just pointing out heat is the potential negative. Some people's tanks still run hot. 

I wasn't just assuming.  😉  

 

They are all (velvet, ich, et al) similar in the right ways to be susceptible to these filters – mostly in their size and in their lifecycle, but other ways as well.  (I have a fair amount of articles on this saved to the Dinoflagellates section on my blog.  I cover both "pest algae" and parasitic types there.

 

As I said, selection and installation matter a lot with UV.....like anything in life, these things are possible to do wrong.  

 

But UV is not that hard to do correctly....mostly a matter of following directions these days.

 

UV and micron filtration are both way easier than pulling off most other QT rituals, IMO.  Especially for smaller tanks around 50G and under.  Something like 10 billion folks in my dino thread (linked last post) pretty much worked out the implementation issues on those tiny UV units, including fit issues.  

 

They are often sold/marketed for killing phyto blooms (green water), so that may be what you have in mind when you think about them.  

 

I think from my thread you scale the sizing rule for phyto blooms up to 2 gallons per watt, if I remember correctly.  (Double check my number on the thread if you're actually going to set up a UV.)  

 

This pretty much jives with the manufacturer's recommendation now (not sure they had a website back when my thread was started)...the lower end of their volume scales would be "for parasites"....

 

Quote

4 sizes that fit most aquariums:  3 Watt internal, 3 Watt Clip-On (40~80L), 9 Watt (81~200L) & 24 Watt (201~450L). 

From: https://www.aa-aquarium.com/gkm

 

40 Liters is about 10 gallons.

 

So, when targeting most common parasites, you can filter up to 10 gallons with a 3-watt unit.

 

Up to 20 gallons for the 9 watt.

 

Up to 50 gallons for the 24 watt.

 

Larger UV units, like those from Lifeguard or AquaUV, usually depend on a flow-rate to set a particular dosage...low flow being for parasites.  Often you have to select the pump correctly and plumb it correctly, so these are a little more involved to implement than the drop-in style Green Killing Machine-type, but still nothing too complicated.  In a nutshell, you want the simplest, most direct installation onto the display tank as possible.  Bypass any sumps or filtration if at all possible and ONLY filter the display water where the fish are, and return filtered water there as well.

 

UV and micron filtration have both been good, time-tested solutions for ectoparasites like ich and velvet...like with many aspects of science, they just haven't been well adopted by our hobby.

 

Micron filtration like the Marineland Polishing Filter are dead-simple to use as I have typically used them, which is with the micron cartridge by itself.  Using diatom powder with it is slightly more involved, but still fairly simple if you want everything filtered from the water down to <1µ.  (They can become a carbon filter later as well if that's useful.)

Share this post


Link to post
Tamberav

I don't see any proof...just a link the people who make it. The flow doesn't look controllable.

 

When I go to purchase one on a vender it says recommended for green water only and they don't recommend running the unit 24/7.

 

???

 

I would just look for a used unit of one of the larger brands if the goal is parasite control. 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Humblefish

Here's a monkey wrench:
 

Quote

Use of ultraviolet (UV) sterilization to kill theronts has been suggested, based on research involving Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (freshwater "ich"). The recommended UV dose for Ichthyophthirius theronts is 100,000 µWsec/cm2 (Hoffman 1974). However, UV doses required for Cryptocaryon irritans are anecdotal or extrapolated, and range from 280,000 µWsec/cm2 (industry numbers) to 800,000 µWsec/cm2 (Colorni and Burgess 1997).

Source: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

 

Now find my a hobbyist grade UV that has a UV dose anywhere near 280,000 µWsec/cm2?? 😕

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

im sure i can get that out of a plug and go 9w UV light from Innovative marine.. 😂

 

you know, i was just being lazy and didn't want to go through all the trouble of setting up a qt. i figured the UV would just help tip the scales a little in the direction of the fishes favor if i just drop them in. after all of this jazz, i have the qt set up and am observing and dosing paraguard. if after 7-10 days they look alright, i intend to transfer them to the DT. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Tamberav

While experimental, my fav method right now is h2o2 baths but that is for velvet/brook, not so much ich. Fish seem to tolerate it sooo well. I am going to try 2 baths 6 days apart with a clean tank in between. Ich I am just going to manage as I have already been doing that for 10 years and it's been working. I would probably feel different if I wanted a powder blue tang.

 

Sometimes it is just a matter of what a person is willing to do. I used to observe for 4-6 weeks then transfer into the DT. Now I do peroxide baths before they go in a tank and when they come out before they hit the DT. I am planning to do the next fish I buy at a LFS to get a peroxide bath > into QT 6 days > Peroxide bath > into observation tank with black mollies for several weeks or they could go into DT which I would probably do with sensitive fish or fish that really benefit from foraging on live rock. 


Risk vs Benefits 

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal

lol i was reading up on peroxide baths as well. Quick, painless and pretty effective. All sorts of good info on humblefish website. I also contacted some sponsors that qt fish for you but never heard back. it would be a good service though. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Tamberav
15 minutes ago, second_decimal said:

lol i was reading up on peroxide baths as well. Quick, painless and pretty effective. All sorts of good info on humblefish website. I also contacted some sponsors that qt fish for you but never heard back. it would be a good service though. 

That sucks you never heard back. Did you try to PM them there? They seem to answer PM's for me 🙂

Share this post


Link to post
second_decimal
1 minute ago, Tamberav said:

That sucks you never heard back. Did you try to PM them there? They seem to answer PM's for me 🙂

i moved on and just picked up some mini fish from TAP and put them in qt. not a huge deal, i am not the guy looking to stock his 700g with gem tangs or 3 helfrichis and 6 blue spotted jawfish or whatever. was just "kickin tires" i suppose to see if it was even worth it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recommended Discussions

×
×
  • Create New...