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East1

A Veteran's Adventure - sub-1 Gallon Acropora Reef

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East1

The focus is balancing the composition of the ATO water to the mineral consumption via testing.
 

It wouldn’t be an ATO based on water level in that sense but rather volumetric dosing that just matches the average volume of forced evaporation because the pure water is a vector. 
 

two birds with one stone, or something  

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East1

I found a single tannaid shrimp swimming on the glass, I assume it came in with some macroalgae, I hope there's enough to establish a colony, I love those things. 

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despite full faith in my theory it's still surprising that this is working so well despite no cycle or, well, anything but the pump. 

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yoshii

Nice to see you with salt again! Excited to see how this turns out. Are you planning on keeping the bowl of sand?

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East1
57 minutes ago, yoshii said:

Nice to see you with salt again! Excited to see how this turns out. Are you planning on keeping the bowl of sand?

Been a while!

 

yeah I am, the idea is that it replicates a bonsai style planting philosophy but also it allows for really strong laminar flow around the edges and slow turbulent flow in the middle, which is ideal imo 

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Hexadron

Love your choice of tank 😛 I have LSA all through my home as well - They make awesome stuff.

 

/following

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East1

 

3 hours ago, Hexadron said:

Love your choice of tank 😛 I have LSA all through my home as well - They make awesome stuff.

 

/following

It's wonderful isn't it? 

 

 

 

 

got a little cleaner shrimp, as well as some writing 

 

 

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East1

 

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East1

Picked up a D&D P1 pump used, I think this kinda encroaches on my 'no technology' concept but now it becomes a 'two pump' concept because adding that solution daily still causes minor alk flux. I've also added a montipora capitata (though the box arrived completely soaked cus the bag broke in shipping, I'm hoping it pulls through) 

 

Time to really test my theory.

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Ratvan

Looking forward to watching this come together. 

 

You still have that floating branch scape? That was gorgeous 

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East1
54 minutes ago, Ratvan said:

Looking forward to watching this come together. 

 

You still have that floating branch scape? That was gorgeous 

Thanks! 

 

Unfortunately not, I naively used grape wood so after a few months of growing the whole thing got covered in fungi (I also added mycorrhizal fungi and some EM blends when setting it up, which didn't help). The plants from there are still growing, just in the open-tray thing now. 

 

The latest set up - the one next to the aquarium a few posts ago is also floating, the whole thing is a log suspended above the base if you look carefully

 

 

Finally finished scaping this, everything's a little pissed off. Still not sure how the monti is gonna do. 

 

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debbeach13

I think it looks great. So easy to fill up these tiny tanks.

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East1

OK I lied I rescaped it again - the torch was getting close to the monti, and that's still stressed from shipping without water, I've not seen any polyp extension and it looks kinda dry, I'm not sure if it can overcome shipping dry like that. 

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East1

ca69160c-3cc0-4dde-b587-417905f8ef64.thumb.jpg.37ddced49b97ce59a0033888880216c3.jpg

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East1

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debbeach13

How are things going with the tank. Is the evaporation what you were expecting? I still don't really understand "forced evaporation". How is the temperature holding? 

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East1

Things are holding up well, Evaporation is like 5-10% per day or so which is what I expected, but kH usage is way higher than I expected - 1.5dkh a day. That said, Kent reef salt mixes way high apparently and it's sitting at like 12dkh, gonna switch to Tropic Marin Pro Reef this week. 

Interestingly I've got no algae (despite actively adding hair algae, and dosing with phosphate / nitrate rich water. I guess the macroalgaes are out competing right now. 

 

Temperature is kept on the lower end, I'm shooting for a more deepwater biotope - Acropora carduus, Montipora capitata and similar, so I've got it at 70-72f. 

 

Forced evaporation is just sticking a fan near the tank to increase the amount of net evaporation, meaning I can top off more volume with the ATO, and in this case, a more dilute and even mineral addition

 

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Christopher Marks

It's great to have you back @East1! 🙂 

 

Thank you so much for sharing your incredible automated rainforest terrariums (is that the right term?), I can see how they pulled your attention away from aquariums for awhile. There's so much to take in, your photos are captivating.

 

I love this new little reef system you've created, what a unique vessel too. I am looking forward to seeing your bonsai vision come to fruition, it's a system in good hands!

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East1
3 hours ago, Christopher Marks said:

It's great to have you back @East1! 🙂 

 

Thank you so much for sharing your incredible automated rainforest terrariums (is that the right term?), I can see how they pulled your attention away from aquariums for awhile. There's so much to take in, your photos are captivating.

 

I love this new little reef system you've created, what a unique vessel too. I am looking forward to seeing your bonsai vision come to fruition, it's a system in good hands!

 

Hey Chris! Thank you! 

I'm glad to be back, I'm pleased with how well N-R is doing after all these years, though it's no surprise.

I think I spent the better part of last week reading all of the tank threads from the old TOTMs starting in 08, Yardboy's thread is still the thread that got me into nano-reefing, very nostalgic going through all of that. I think I'm at September 2010 now reading Uhuru's thread!

 

Glad you like them - I'm still not sure what I'd call the systems yet! I've nicknamed them replicators, while most are rainforest-y I've had some wonderful wildflower themed creations like this: 

 

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I'm really excited watching this unfold, I've spent most of the weekend when not reading, just sitting staring into it. I forgot how captivating even the tiniest drop of ocean can be! 

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mitten_reef
3 hours ago, East1 said:

Things are holding up well, Evaporation is like 5-10% per day or so which is what I expected, but kH usage is way higher than I expected - 1.5dkh a day. That said, Kent reef salt mixes way high apparently and it's sitting at like 12dkh, gonna switch to Tropic Marin Pro Reef this week. 

Interestingly I've got no algae (despite actively adding hair algae, and dosing with phosphate / nitrate rich water. I guess the macroalgaes are out competing right now. 

 

Temperature is kept on the lower end, I'm shooting for a more deepwater biotope - Acropora carduus, Montipora capitata and similar, so I've got it at 70-72f. 

 

Forced evaporation is just sticking a fan near the tank to increase the amount of net evaporation, meaning I can top off more volume with the ATO, and in this case, a more dilute and even mineral addition

 

with a tank this tiny, I don't imagine there's much in a way of automation.  manual wc twice daily should keep your parameter stable, at least for a while.  have a gallon jug of fresh-mixed sw nearby, scoop a cup out then pour a cup in, morning and evening.  see how it goes.  I'd use the salt mix with slightly elevated alk/cal, in lieu of dosing.  you can vary the wc quantity to keep you within 7-8 range throughout the day.  

 

 

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East1
2 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

with a tank this tiny, I don't imagine there's much in a way of automation.  manual wc twice daily should keep your parameter stable, at least for a while.  have a gallon jug of fresh-mixed sw nearby, scoop a cup out then pour a cup in, morning and evening.  see how it goes.  I'd use the salt mix with slightly elevated alk/cal, in lieu of dosing.  you can vary the wc quantity to keep you within 7-8 range throughout the day.  

 

 

 

This would definitely work.

 

What you're essentially doing when you do a water change (aside from removing nutrients) is adding a solution where the consumed elements are elevated compared to the net system levels which are depressed from consumption. 

This is the same net effect as removing only H2O for the volumetric change and replacing that lost H2O with H2O + consumed elements

 

So instead of a water change it's possible to harness the process of evaporation and then replace the missing water as a carrying solution for bicarbonates, calcium, trace elements and anything else you'd want to include (carbon for bacteria growth, nitrogen in the form of aminos etc). Further making use of liebig's law of minimum, it's possible to guage consumption pegged against alk depression, and so it's fairly easy to approximate these dosages to avoid limitation while maintaining full mineral stability (including NaCl) with a single dosing pump. 

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mitten_reef
13 minutes ago, East1 said:

This is the same net effect as removing only H2O for the volumetric change and replacing that lost H2O with H2O + consumed elements

 

So instead of a water change it's possible to harness the process of evaporation and then replace the missing water as a carrying solution for bicarbonates, calcium, trace elements and anything else you'd want to include (carbon for bacteria growth, nitrogen in the form of aminos etc).

what you're describing here, is more similar to using a kalkwasser top off method, in lieu of fresh water.   kalkwasser is the solution that should contain everything you need from skeletal growth perspective.  I'm not too familiar with kalk method tho...someone else might be able to explain better.  

C and N generally can come from free organics that you add in the form of food (unless you're not feeding the tank?) and/or maybe amino-vitamin mix like acropower.  

 

I'm interested to see which path you're going with 🙂 

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East1
35 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

what you're describing here, is more similar to using a kalkwasser top off method, in lieu of fresh water.   kalkwasser is the solution that should contain everything you need from skeletal growth perspective.  I'm not too familiar with kalk method tho...someone else might be able to explain better.  

C and N generally can come from free organics that you add in the form of food (unless you're not feeding the tank?) and/or maybe amino-vitamin mix like acropower.  

 

I'm interested to see which path you're going with 🙂 

 

Kalk is too imprecise in my opinion, especially at this size. Perhaps with a kalkstirrer it'd work, but that's a lot more tech than I want to have. 

 

I will be feeding the tank, achieved primarly by growing the algae and bacteria, which feed biomass in the tank, and feed the corals, combined with nitrate in the additive solution. 

 

I'll probably end up feeding using Coralline Amino Acids by Salifert because I just really like that stuff too, I also want to push the balance in the way of N to P inputs. I do feed the shrimp with meaty food. 

 

Bicarbonates will be added by using remineralised water, and a small carbon source for bacteria. currently I have the balance dosing 19.2ppm per litre tank volume of CaCO3 through the water and that seems to keep things stable, that's about 1dkH at the moment. 

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East1

 

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mitten_reef
13 minutes ago, East1 said:

 

Kalk is too imprecise in my opinion, especially at this size. Perhaps with a kalkstirrer it'd work, but that's a lot more tech than I want to have. 

 

I will be feeding the tank, achieved primarly by growing the algae and bacteria, which feed biomass in the tank, and feed the corals, combined with nitrate in the additive solution. 

 

I'll probably end up feeding using Coralline Amino Acids by Salifert because I just really like that stuff too, I also want to push the balance in the way of N to P inputs. I do feed the shrimp with meaty food. 

 

Bicarbonates will be added by using remineralised water, and a small carbon source for bacteria. currently I have the balance dosing 19.2ppm per litre tank volume of CaCO3 through the water and that seems to keep things stable, that's about 1dkH at the moment. 

that was my concern about mentioning kalk, good in larger volume system where there's a bit of wiggle room, hard to be precise in something this small.

 

also didn't realize this is also going for 0 water change.  Therefore, the effort to replenish everything thru top off water makes more sense now. 😄 

 

Have you seen Tropic Marin All for Reef, DIY recipe https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/carbo-calcium-plus-trace-elements-kit-tropic-marin.html?  It sounds like you're making a diluted form of this, to use as top-off water.  OR you can dilute directly from their liquid All for Reef product as well?  The recipe seems well-defined, so it should be relatively easy to determine concentrations of various components. 

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East1
Just now, mitten_reef said:

that was my concern about mentioning kalk, good in larger volume system where there's a bit of wiggle room, hard to be precise in something this small.

 

also didn't realize this is also going for 0 water change.  Therefore, the effort to replenish everything thru top off water makes more sense now. 😄 

 

Have you seen Tropic Marin All for Reef, DIY recipe https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/carbo-calcium-plus-trace-elements-kit-tropic-marin.html?  It sounds like you're making a diluted form of this, to use as top-off water.  OR you can dilute directly from their liquid All for Reef product as well?  The recipe seems well-defined, so it should be relatively easy to determine concentrations of various components. 

 

I have! I was reading about it today, it's based on Calcium Formate,  which is similar to calcium acetate which breaks down via metabolic action to bicarbonate, co2 and water.

 

Dosing this with H2O means that the requisite metabolic reaction would begin in the top off water and would adjust the volumes required, making it difficult to accurately adjust dosages, and growing bacteria.

 

I plan to use calcium acetate to suppment my already mineralised water combined with trace elements (haven't decided on a brand but it seems everyone makes ionic and cationic tracelement solutions now)  which should give me an acceptable level of control versus the size.  This should mean some controllable bacteria level in the top off water which eventually feeds the tank

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