Ammonia Spike

[FlytheWMark]

I have an established (almost 2 year old) 10 gallon nano.  All parameters have been rock solid and steady for over a year, everything was going fine until late last week I used some reef putty (Instant Ocean maybe but I'm not sure) to fix an area I broke off.  I did use a good amount in the 10 gallon to build part of an edge.  Didn't think anything of it.  My hammers and torches were pissed for a day or so but I thought that was just due to the disruption.  On day 3 they were still looking weak and now a couple of other corals weren't looking good.  I ran through my regular testing, most were normal, nitrates a little lower than usual (2 this tank usually runs 5-10).  So I checked ammonia an it had spiked to 1.0.  Can reef putty do this?  I didn't disrupt a ton in the sand bed or honestly move much rock around.  I'm adding bacteria back in (another reefer friend advised) to try to get some of the ammonia down and I've moved some of the more sensitive corals into my 20 gallon temporarily.  I'm also wondering with the ammonia is the tank going to have to re-cycle?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

[DISQUALIFIED-QQ]

My first question is how and where things broke off? I am also curious on how you went about rebuilding. I'm assuming you didn't expose your rocks to air for an extended period of time nor you shifting rocks around a lot would have disrupted possible anoxic bits inside the rocks

 

I read from this website.

 

Not sure if IO makes their putty like AquaScape, but if they are epoxy based I wonder if any stray molecules bound to free oxygen and lowered dissolved oxygen levels. Lower DO will negatively impacted the aerobic beneficial bacteria which in turn causes an increase in ammonia in the water column. Reference

Also I'm wondering if the amount of putty you used may have just enveloped a significant enough amount of bacteria. It's a simple explanation, but it's an educated guess.

 

Side note: Traditionally, wastewater treatment plants create highly aerated systems to encourage growth of nitrifying bacteria.

 

With NH3 being 1ppm it sounds like you're cycling again. I'd keep an eye on how ammonia trends over the next several days. Adding bottle bacteria should help and moving corals is the right thing to do. From personal experience I had a sponge die on me recently and it caused a slight spike in ammonia then nitrite (led to an interesting series of algal growth). I bought a bottle of Seachem Stability to help address it.

[FlytheWMark]

I had a poorly constructed conglomerate of Candy Cane Trumpets that had been just asking to be broken during a cleaning (and they did). So like i said I did use quite a bit of putty to form a ledge outward. The rocks never came out of the water, no did I even move them around.  I've read about ammonia spikes in older tanks if the sand bed gets messed around with or large rocks moved but none of this happened.  Just wondering if there is anything else I need to be doing while patiently waiting for ammonia to come down.

[DISQUALIFIED-QQ]

1 minute ago, FlytheWMark said:

I had a poorly constructed conglomerate of Candy Cane Trumpets that had been just asking to be broken during a cleaning (and they did). So like i said I did use quite a bit of putty to form a ledge outward. The rocks never came out of the water, no did I even move them around.  I've read about ammonia spikes in older tanks if the sand bed gets messed around with or large rocks moved but none of this happened.  Just wondering if there is anything else I need to be doing while patiently waiting for ammonia to come down.

I see. Outside of water changes, I can't think of much else to do. If you have Seachem Prime, I heard that also targets ammonia and binds to it to make it "less toxic."

[Clown79]

Do a waterchange or use seachem prime to detoxify the ammonia.

 

Some ppl have had issues in their tanks from large amounts of epoxy being used, I've not experienced it myself with epoxy

[FlytheWMark]

8 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Do a waterchange or use seachem prime to detoxify the ammonia.

 

Some ppl have had issues in their tanks from large amounts of epoxy being used, I've not experienced it myself with epoxy

Thanks, picked some Seachem up tonight.  Do you just use it once or do you use it daily?

[Clown79]

26 minutes ago, FlytheWMark said:

Thanks, picked some Seachem up tonight.  Do you just use it once or do you use it daily?

I followed the directions. I can't remember them off the top of my head.

 

Your ammonia readings if using api tester won't be true readings for 48hrs. 

[DISQUALIFIED-QQ]

47 minutes ago, FlytheWMark said:

Thanks, picked some Seachem up tonight.  Do you just use it once or do you use it daily?

Prime is 5mL for every 50mL. If you want to be super accurate you can use a baby feeding syringe. The cap, for each thread its about 1mL. It generally performs best when added with new water according to the directions on the back.

 

I don't see the problem with dosing as the packaging also says use 5x dose amount to detoxify nitrite.

[FlytheWMark]

No change in the ammonia, it might have actually gone up a bit I'll re-test here in a bit, question do I need to remove the putty in the tank or does it not really make any difference at this point?

[Clown79]

9 hours ago, FlytheWMark said:

No change in the ammonia, it might have actually gone up a bit I'll re-test here in a bit, question do I need to remove the putty in the tank or does it not really make any difference at this point?

What test kit are you using? Did you dose Prime?

[FlytheWMark]

6 hours ago, Clown79 said:

What test kit are you using? Did you dose Prime?

Yes I used the Prime and I'm using API test kit.  The ammonia looks like it has actually gone up some.  Not sure what to do here.

[seabass]

13 minutes ago, FlytheWMark said:

Yes I used the Prime and I'm using API test kit.  The ammonia looks like it has actually gone up some.  Not sure what to do here.

Prime temporarily changes the free ammonia into ammonium (which is considered less toxic to fish).  This effect lasts from one to two days.

 

"Total ammonia" is a combination of free ammonia and ammonium (which interconvert rapidly and are often not distinguished as distinct chemicals).  Most reagent ammonia kits, test for total ammonia; therefore, adding Prime will not lower the results of these tests.  In addition, the presence of Prime in the water may affect the resulting color of the results.

 

There are other ammonia test kits, like the Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge, which test for free ammonia, and not total ammonia.  This kit is also unaffected by the use of Prime.  Ideally, you should use these kits while dosing Prime.

 

If using a reagent based kit, you should continue to dose Prime daily for a couple of weeks, then perform a complete water change and retest.

[FlytheWMark]

I see from the bottle you can dose up to 5x the standard amount, do I need to do another dosing at a higher amount? I'm still adding bacteria every day trying to get this down.  Should I remove the putty that is in there that caused this or just leave it?

[seabass]

Do not use a higher dose; instead, dose daily.  Once the epoxy has fully cured, it should be inert.  I don't believe there is a need to remove the epoxy at this point.  The initial ammonia spike may have caused other things to die, which is now providing additional ammonia.  The bacteria needs time to catch up with the higher ammonia levels/production.

[FlytheWMark]

1 minute ago, seabass said:

Do not use a higher dose; instead, dose daily.  Once the epoxy has fully cured, it should be inert.  I don't believe there is a need to remove the epoxy at this point.  The initial ammonia spike may have caused other things to die, which is now providing additional ammonia.  The bacteria needs time to catch up with the higher ammonia levels/production.

Dose daily, got it! Much appreciated.

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, FlytheWMark said:

Yes I used the Prime and I'm using API test kit.  The ammonia looks like it has actually gone up some.  Not sure what to do here.

As I mentioned earlier, the Api results won't be accurate results while dosing Prime until after 48hrs of no dosing.

[FlytheWMark]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

As I mentioned earlier, the Api results won't be accurate results while dosing Prime until after 48hrs of no dosing.

But would it show a HIGHER amount of ammonia?  The corals that are still in there are actually looking a little worse so I don't think I'm seeing a decrease yet.

[Clown79]

12 minutes ago, FlytheWMark said:

But would it show a HIGHER amount of ammonia?  The corals that are still in there are actually looking a little worse so I don't think I'm seeing a decrease yet.

Prime detoxifies the ammonia making it non dangerous.

 

It's very well possible. Any readings while dosing Prime will be inaccurate due to the regent.

 

The seachem ammonia test and or ammonia alert badge do however read ammonia accurately while using Prime

Have you done a decent waterchange after the issue arose?

 

Added new activated carbon?

[FlytheWMark]

1 minute ago, Clown79 said:

Prime detoxifies the ammonia making it non dangerous.

 

It's very well possible. Any readings while dosing Prime will be inaccurate due to the regent.

 

The seachem ammonia test and or ammonia alert badge do however read ammonia accurately while using Prime

Thanks, that's helpful.  I may dose it daily over the weekend, let it sit for 48 hours and check the readings

[seabass]

1 hour ago, FlytheWMark said:

But would it show a HIGHER amount of ammonia?  The corals that are still in there are actually looking a little worse so I don't think I'm seeing a decrease yet.

If total ammonia levels are increasing faster than they are being processed, then yes it would should a higher level.  Also the addition of Prime may cause a color shift that you might perceive to read as a higher level.

 

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

Prime detoxifies the ammonia making it non dangerous.

 

It's very well possible. Any readings while dosing Prime will be inaccurate due to the regent.

 

The seachem ammonia test and or ammonia alert badge do however read ammonia accurately while using Prime

Prime doesn't necessarily "detoxify" ammonia (as it is advertised), and I wouldn't necessarily call it non-dangerous.  It converts free ammonia to ammonium, which can more easily pass through fishes gills while being more difficult to enter the bloodstream.  High levels of ammonium may still be harmful to other organisms.

 

The reagent test results aren't random, they are reading total ammonia (not just free ammonia); plus Prime may cause a color shift (I believe to brown, but I'll have to confirm that).  The Seachem discs measure just free ammonia (measuring relative safety for fish) while being unaffected by Prime.

 

1 hour ago, FlytheWMark said:

Thanks, that's helpful.  I may dose it daily over the weekend, let it sit for 48 hours and check the readings

Letting it sit for 48 hours will simply let the ammonium convert back to free ammonia (increasing the toxicity for fish).  I don't believe it will change your test results.  Again, I'm not fully aware of the toxicity of ammonium to inverts (though I suspect that high levels can be toxic).

 

You might consider doing a 100% water change over the weekend.

[FlytheWMark]

10 minutes ago, seabass said:

If total ammonia levels are increasing faster than they are being processed, then yes it would should a higher level.  Also the addition of Prime may cause a color shift that you might perceive to read as a higher level.

 

Prime doesn't necessarily "detoxify" ammonia (as it is advertised), and I wouldn't necessarily call it non-dangerous.  It converts free ammonia to ammonium, which can more easily pass through fishes gills while being more difficult to enter the bloodstream.  High levels of ammonium may still be harmful to other organisms.

 

The reagent test results aren't random, they are reading total ammonia (not just free ammonia); plus Prime may cause a color shift (I believe to brown, but I'll have to confirm that).  The Seachem discs measure just free ammonia (measuring relative safety for fish) while being unaffected by Prime.

 

Letting it sit for 48 hours will simply let the ammonium convert back to free ammonia (increasing the toxicity for fish).  I don't believe it will change your test results.  Again, I'm not fully aware of the toxicity of ammonium to inverts (though I suspect that high levels can be toxic).

 

You might consider doing a 100% water change over the weekend.

I thought about 75-100% water change but have never done that much.  What are the risks with doing that much of a change?

[seabass]

2 hours ago, FlytheWMark said:

What are the risks with doing that much of a change?

The risks aren't typically too great.  The main risk is that your parameters may suddenly change (like the bulk of the nutrients being exported, but other element levels are likely to change too).  These changes can range from subtle to severe, but are fairly comparable to buying a new coral and placing it in your tank.

[FlytheWMark]

I tested this AM, ammonia is now 2.0 (which per above may or may not be accurate because of the Prime) but now there is no Nitrate in there at all.  Has the cycle crashed?  Do I just wait this out, keep adding bacteria and Prime daily or do a 50/75/100% water change?  Really frustrated here.

[FlytheWMark]

14 minutes ago, FlytheWMark said:

I tested this AM, ammonia is now 2.0 (which per above may or may not be accurate because of the Prime) but now there is no Nitrate in there at all.  Has the cycle crashed?  Do I just wait this out, keep adding bacteria and Prime daily or do a 50/75/100% water change?  Really frustrated here.

Hold the phone, re-tested, Nitrates are at 2 so its still cycling.  Still torn on if I wait this out or do a huge water change.

[seabass]

As Clown79 suggested, when using Prime, testing for ammonia with a reagent test kit isn't providing you with a clear picture of what's currently going on in your system.  How do the inhabitants look?  Visual cues may provide better evidence of what's going on.  Can you post a new picture of your tank?

 

55 minutes ago, FlytheWMark said:

Still torn on if I wait this out or do a huge water change.

If things are looking better, I would continue to dose Prime daily for another week, then do a massive water change.  If things look like they are continuing to decline, then I would consider doing the water change this weekend.

 

If you want a better picture of your tank's ammonia level (while using Prime, and when discontinuing Prime), go to Petco and purchase a Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge.