Help With Sump Design

[duncantse]

First time making my own sump and it'll be great if you guys can give me some input. I have a 2 year 37 gallon reef system so there is no way of drilling a hole. Planning to get the eshopps nano overflow that is rated for 200 gph. Should the return pump be also rated at 200 also?
 

 

I will be reusing my Reef Octopus HOB 1000 protein skimmer as it is working great atm but the water level in my sump will need to be to the top as you can see in picture the pump intake is right where I need to hang the skimmer.
 

 

Going to be using a standard 5 gallon tank and I will glue the baffles in myself. Does this diagram I drew up look like it will work? I need the water level in the skimmer chamber to be high as it's a hob skimmer and then low in the return area so just in case my overflow fails then I will have some room for more water.
 

 

I will be using vinyl to plumb my system as I feel it's the easiest for me and I won't have to glue/cut pvc. Would this type of y barb adapter work to connect my return line to my reactor? This way I won't have to use another pump.
 

Just trying to keep everything super simple as I am just using the sump to hide my equipment. Nothing fancy

Quick fts of my reef for your time
 

[seabass]

2 hours ago, duncantse said:

Planning to get the eshopps nano overflow that is rated for 200 gph. Should the return pump be also rated at 200 also?

A pump rated at 200 gph without plumbing will lose quite a bit due to head pressure (which comes from the plumbing itself, bends in the tubing, and the vertical distance you are pumping up to.

 

2 hours ago, duncantse said:

Would this type of y barb adapter work to connect my return line to my reactor?

A Y fitting is fine.  However, if you are supplying flow through a reactor along with the return, you need a pump which is strong enough to power both (including head loss to the return).  Then there's the issue of controlling flow rates to each.  You'll likely need at least one valve to help control the flow.  It'll probably take a decent sized pump to do both.

 

2 hours ago, duncantse said:

the water level in my sump will need to be to the top

That's always a little bit scary as the sump has to handle the back flow from the overflow and return (when power is lost to the pump).  TBH, I'm not sure just how much water this will entail.  The water will siphon through the return, so the return should be as high as you can make it to reduce the amount of water flowing back down to the sump.  Test this before you let your new sump go unattended.

 

If there is room, I'd consider a ten gallon tank instead.  I believe I've read that Eshopps overflows are well designed.  However, a failure means pumping all of the water out of your return chamber, into you tank.  And if you have an auto top off, this could mean pumping all of the reservoir (freshwater) water into your tank as well.  And when I say into, obviously it will be overflowing over the rim.

 

My current sump that I made has a single baffle (with no bubble trap).  Depending on your drain and skimmer, it might be possible to do the same.  It's easier, cheaper, and takes up less room.

 

2 hours ago, duncantse said:

low in the return area so just in case my overflow fails then I will have some room for more water.

I'm sure you mean if your return pump fails.  One issue with a low level in the return chamber, is that evaporation affects this water level.  A little bit of evaporation, can make you pump run dry.  People use auto top offs to get around this (see above warning about ATOs and overflow failures).

[duncantse]

7 hours ago, seabass said:

A pump rated at 200 gph without plumbing will lose quite a bit due to head pressure (which comes from the plumbing itself, bends in the tubing, and the vertical distance you are pumping up to.

 

A Y fitting is fine.  However, if you are supplying flow through a reactor along with the return, you need a pump which is strong enough to power both (including head loss to the return).  Then there's the issue of controlling flow rates to each.  You'll likely need at least one valve to help control the flow.  It'll probably take a decent sized pump to do both.

 

That's always a little bit scary as the sump has to handle the back flow from the overflow and return (when power is lost to the pump).  TBH, I'm not sure just how much water this will entail.  The water will siphon through the return, so the return should be as high as you can make it to reduce the amount of water flowing back down to the sump.  Test this before you let your new sump go unattended.

 

If there is room, I'd consider a ten gallon tank instead.  I believe I've read that Eshopps overflows are well designed.  However, a failure means pumping all of the water out of your return chamber, into you tank.  And if you have an auto top off, this could mean pumping all of the reservoir (freshwater) water into your tank as well.  And when I say into, obviously it will be overflowing over the rim.

 

My current sump that I made has a single baffle (with no bubble trap).  Depending on your drain and skimmer, it might be possible to do the same.  It's easier, cheaper, and takes up less room.

 

I'm sure you mean if your return pump fails.  One issue with a low level in the return chamber, is that evaporation affects this water level.  A little bit of evaporation, can make you pump run dry.  People use auto top offs to get around this (see above warning about ATOs and overflow failures).

 

Yes I will be using my TLF reactor so a ball valve is on already. 

 

That is the thing I can't wrap my head around. I know if my pump fails, then the overflow will just drain some water back into my sump until the siphon stops. But what if my overflow gets clogged or siphon stops? The pump will just keep pumping water back into tank while my ato will be on the entire time filling water back into sump. Is there a safeguard to this? I have the tunze nano ato so it will stop after I think 30s of continuous use. Or is it possible to add a float valve into the return chamber and connect it to my apex to tell apex to shut off pump if it gets too low? 

 

That's a good idea! For some reason I thought you need to have a bubble trap but if I can do with just 1 baffle then I can save some space. Are you getting any microbubbles into your tank with a single baffle? 

 

Here's my new design and it'll keep everything simple. 

 

Another question is that is there a recommended flow rate down the overflow? The eshopps hob nano overflow that I'm looking at right now is rated at 200gph. 

 

Thanks for your feedback!

[seabass]

2 hours ago, duncantse said:

what if my overflow gets clogged or siphon stops?... Is there a safeguard to this?

This is why people drill their tanks; it's more reliable than a siphon.  I believe some HOB overflow boxes use an Aqualifter pump to help eliminate bubbles from stopping the siphon.

 

3 hours ago, duncantse said:

Are you getting any microbubbles into your tank with a single baffle?

I am not, but it can depend on your drain, skimmer, and flow.

 

There are actually a lot of factors involved (including drain noise).  You might even consider temporarily transferring everything while you drill your tank.  That, or leaving things as is.  I'm not saying to give up your plans, but you must be willing to accept a little more risk when utilizing a HOB overflow box.

[duncantse]

On 6/1/2020 at 1:02 PM, seabass said:

This is why people drill their tanks; it's more reliable than a siphon.  I believe some HOB overflow boxes use an Aqualifter pump to help eliminate bubbles from stopping the siphon.

 

I am not, but it can depend on your drain, skimmer, and flow.

 

There are actually a lot of factors involved (including drain noise).  You might even consider temporarily transferring everything while you drill your tank.  That, or leaving things as is.  I'm not saying to give up your plans, but you must be willing to accept a little more risk when utilizing a HOB overflow box.

 

Yes I totally agree with you. If I could do over I would for sure drill my tank. 

 

After considering I think the safest route is to add a float switch to my main tank and link it to my apex. 

 

This way if the siphon stops and my pump is constantly pumping water out of sump to display, the float switch will shut off the pump and ato. 

 

If my pump fails, I will leave enough space in my sump to compensate for the water draining down. 

 

[duncantse]

 

I think something like this connected to a breakout box on the apex would work

[mcarroll]

On 6/3/2020 at 3:52 AM, duncantse said:

 

I think something like this connected to a breakout box on the apex would work

Use that and skip the baffles altogether.

 

I'd suggest selling the skimmer and replacing it with something that lacks the weirdo water-height requirement.

 

Or...

 

If you haven't already, I'd actually consider a Tunze Reefpack 250 vs going with the sump setup.  It's simpler, not much (if any) more space taken up in the tank vs the overflow, plus you get a superior skimmer and a place to hide your heater and ATO sensor.

https://www.tunze.com/US/en/details/0250.000-comlineR-reefpack-250.html