Reclamation project

[snostorm]

i have reef roids.....lol.  Ill give them some tonight

 

[seabass]

59 minutes ago, snostorm said:

i have reef roids.....lol

 

[mcarroll]

On 9/8/2020 at 8:28 PM, snostorm said:

I run filter floss which I change religiously, and run Chemipure elite.

Water changes go on that list as well.

 

Filter floss and phosphates remover are completely optional for a reef.  I'd take them out AND I'd stop doing water changes until things start doing better.  If you MUST, add them back in one at a time as needed – not "just because".

 

The only exception for water changes is if you're using them for alkalinity maintenance....keep tabs on your alk, and do water changes ONLY for that reason...and again, only as needed.

[snostorm]

My Monti seems to be doing well. It has become my favorite. 

[snostorm]

Welp...I lost another Cleaner shrimp.  Its not bad luck.  There is something about my tank that is not conducive to shrimp longevity.  Cant figure out what it could possibly be. They seem fine for a a month or two. .  Eating behaving normally.  Then they start acting funny and they die.  Today I came home from work and my Emerald Crab was having shrimp cocktail.  Last night he wouldn't eat and looked like it was getting ready to molt. This is the third time I have had this happen.  My params are good no nitrate, phosphate, DKH 7.4, salinity 1.025.  There is something in my tank that kills Skunk Cleaner shrimp but over time .  

 

Anyone have any ideas?

 

Could it be metal from a powerhead? No iodine? Im at a total loss.

[seabass]

11 minutes ago, snostorm said:

No iodine?

That might explain trouble molting.  However, a tank that gets regular water changes and isn't over-skimmed, usually has enough iodine.  Although this might be the most logical guess.

 

15 minutes ago, snostorm said:

Could it be metal from a powerhead?

I think that copper can be an issue, but I'm not sure that a working powerhead would cause any problems.  Very high nitrate is also known to be a problem.

[snostorm]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

That might explain trouble molting.  However, a tank that gets regular water changes and isn't over-skimmed, usually has enough iodine.  Although this might be the most logical guess.

 

I think that copper can be an issue, but I'm not sure that a working powerhead would cause any problems.  Very high nitrate is also known to be a problem.

My nitrates run near zero. Dont run a skimmer. Cant imagine a copper source. Know they can be sensitive to salinity but pretty much keep it steady. Really frustrated because I love them so much character, and they really add to your tank. I can not keep buying them to ultimately watch them die without deciphering what the hell the problem is.  

 

No temp swings....I use RO water....regular water changes.....I hand feed them to ensure they are fed.....this is vexing to me. 

 

[seabass]

Wish I could help.  Not really sure what's going on.

 

Any chance the magnesium level is very high?

 

I might try getting one from another vendor.

[snostorm]

I think I am on to something, been researching.  It seems like before the Shrimp dies they are looking like they are getting ready to molt.  I believe it is low iodine in my system.  Came across this thread.  And guess what salt I am using. 

 

[Crys]

Interesting, I started I post with the same problem and have been wondering about iodine levels.  I have lost 4 crabs and a shrimp and a few hermits, so I have stopped buying inverts that molt until I get it figured out.  What kind of salt were you using?

 

Crystal

[mcarroll]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:13 PM, snostorm said:

My nitrates run near zero. Dont run a skimmer.

Try allowing (maybe even encouraging) higher, more natural, nutrient levels in your system.  E.g.  5-10+ ppm of nitrate and around 0.10+ ppm of phosphate.

 

Maybe also try running a skimmer....it supplies some mild filtration, but also significant aeration.

 

"Higher" nutrients and a protein skimmer (plus live rock) are the most tried-and-true combination for successful reefing.  I guess we can call it the "old school" formula at this point?

 

Just for reference...

 

My nitrates max out the Salifert test kit.  (>50? >100?)  Phosphates are "very high" at >1.0 ppm as well.  (Not a typo on either parameter.)

 

I use Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals and only do irregular 15% water changes...on average, one water change every few weeks.

 

I primarily feed frozen, two cubes a day on average – Saltwater Multipack.  I occasionally switch off to Plankton, Emerald Entree or fresh-grated krill.  

 

I also occasionally supplement with Omega One Marine flake food and New Life Spectrum pellets.

 

Inverts (skunk cleaner, fire shrimp and porcelain crab) seem to have no problems molting.

 

It's almost axiomatic that whenever someone feels compelled to blame an "X factor" like the salt or the lights, that it's not the salt or the lights.  In the other thread quoted above they are grasping at straws and just not familiar with iodine in a reef nor with iodine testing.  Understandable in all respects.  "0.0" is more-or-less expected for an off-the-cuff iodine test.

 

Molting doesn't require a special salt, but like everything else biological it does require lots of basic nutrients....nitrates and phosphates are two of the most basic nutrients and you know that at least one of the two scores a zero.  To me I'd start with those basics and worry about the obscure (eg iodine) later if you still have no joy.

 

If I were in your shoes, my only concern for iodine would be whether it's coming in via food sources (or not).  Marine sources of food ought to have it, generally.  I'd only think about it if I was feeding an "alternative' food source.  So what are you feeding this tank?

 

Unless iodine kits have changed, the Seachem kit is the only hobby Iodine test kit I'd spend the not-inconsiderable effort to use.  It definitely works.  But iodine testing is not straightforward like most tests we are familiar with.  (And there's the whole debatability of whether there's any benefit from adding iodine....and therefore for testing for it.)

 

I thought I had a thread where I elaborated on some testing work I did with the Seachem Iodine test kit...but a mention of that work in the following 2010 Reef Central thread (about a different kit) was the only thing Google could come up with just now.  🤷‍♂️  This thread mostly talks about the Salifert kit....but the commentary also drives home that (too little) Iodine is unlikely to be the problem:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1906727

 

Maybe you can find my older Seachem posts while you're there...

 

(re-reading that post was a reminder to me for how hard it was to drag any semblance of a good thread out of that place.....they'd always love to reply but not answer the damn question )

 

P.S.  Here's another article that might be interesting: "Ozonation Effects on the Speciation of Dissolved Iodine in Artificial Seawater at the National Aquarium in Baltimore"  Ozone-azide, it gives you an idea of why the Salifert kit would read zero for iodine when in fact there is iodine in the system.

 

P.P.S.  I tried using Google Scholar to find anything in the literature that links iodine with shrimp molting and got absolutely nothing.  Shrimp farming is common so there is a lot of literature on shrimp and their nutrition, for what it's worth.  IMO if iodine is related to molting at all, it's related incidentally.

[Crys]

There are some interesting similarities between the two tanks.  I can't get my nitrate above 0 and I have no phosphates. (even had the lfs check them)    I also don't run a skimmer. My tank is 13.5 gal.  I feed a combination of shrimp, new life thera + and north fin veggies.  I feed once a day and do a 10% water change almost weekly.  The only crab I have left is an emerald crab that has never molted. I've had him for over 6 months.  He has a white bulge out of his side which I assume is him outgrowing his shell in a bad way.   I don't run a pristine tank.  I have algae, and gunk to syphon, I don't under feed but somehow things stay at 0.  It seems like there is always something to figure out.

[mcarroll]

Any chance that all of these inverts are from the same source?

[snostorm]

21 hours ago, Crys said:

Interesting, I started I post with the same problem and have been wondering about iodine levels.  I have lost 4 crabs and a shrimp and a few hermits, so I have stopped buying inverts that molt until I get it figured out.  What kind of salt were you using?

 

Crystal

Reef Crystals

[snostorm]

19 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Try allowing (maybe even encouraging) higher, more natural, nutrient levels in your system.  E.g.  5-10+ ppm of nitrate and around 0.10+ ppm of phosphate.

 

Maybe also try running a skimmer....it supplies some mild filtration, but also significant aeration.

 

"Higher" nutrients and a protein skimmer (plus live rock) are the most tried-and-true combination for successful reefing.  I guess we can call it the "old school" formula at this point?

 

Just for reference...

 

My nitrates max out the Salifert test kit.  (>50? >100?)  Phosphates are "very high" at >1.0 ppm as well.  (Not a typo on either parameter.)

 

I use Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals and only do irregular 15% water changes...on average, one water change every few weeks.

 

I primarily feed frozen, two cubes a day on average – Saltwater Multipack.  I occasionally switch off to Plankton, Emerald Entree or fresh-grated krill.  

 

I also occasionally supplement with Omega One Marine flake food and New Life Spectrum pellets.

 

Inverts (skunk cleaner, fire shrimp and porcelain crab) seem to have no problems molting.

 

It's almost axiomatic that whenever someone feels compelled to blame an "X factor" like the salt or the lights, that it's not the salt or the lights.  In the other thread quoted above they are grasping at straws and just not familiar with iodine in a reef nor with iodine testing.  Understandable in all respects.  "0.0" is more-or-less expected for an off-the-cuff iodine test.

 

Molting doesn't require a special salt, but like everything else biological it does require lots of basic nutrients....nitrates and phosphates are two of the most basic nutrients and you know that at least one of the two scores a zero.  To me I'd start with those basics and worry about the obscure (eg iodine) later if you still have no joy.

 

If I were in your shoes, my only concern for iodine would be whether it's coming in via food sources (or not).  Marine sources of food ought to have it, generally.  I'd only think about it if I was feeding an "alternative' food source.  So what are you feeding this tank?

 

Unless iodine kits have changed, the Seachem kit is the only hobby Iodine test kit I'd spend the not-inconsiderable effort to use.  It definitely works.  But iodine testing is not straightforward like most tests we are familiar with.  (And there's the whole debatability of whether there's any benefit from adding iodine....and therefore for testing for it.)

 

I thought I had a thread where I elaborated on some testing work I did with the Seachem Iodine test kit...but a mention of that work in the following 2010 Reef Central thread (about a different kit) was the only thing Google could come up with just now.  🤷‍♂️  This thread mostly talks about the Salifert kit....but the commentary also drives home that (too little) Iodine is unlikely to be the problem:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1906727

 

Maybe you can find my older Seachem posts while you're there...

 

(re-reading that post was a reminder to me for how hard it was to drag any semblance of a good thread out of that place.....they'd always love to reply but not answer the damn question )

 

P.S.  Here's another article that might be interesting: "Ozonation Effects on the Speciation of Dissolved Iodine in Artificial Seawater at the National Aquarium in Baltimore"  Ozone-azide, it gives you an idea of why the Salifert kit would read zero for iodine when in fact there is iodine in the system.

 

P.P.S.  I tried using Google Scholar to find anything in the literature that links iodine with shrimp molting and got absolutely nothing.  Shrimp farming is common so there is a lot of literature on shrimp and their nutrition, for what it's worth.  IMO if iodine is related to molting at all, it's related incidentally.

...interesting thanks for the reply.  I was trying to decipher what was "in" my system that was killing shrimp but am coming to think its what "isnt" in my system that the shrimp need to thrive.  Their demise isnt quick.  They seemingly do well for a time.  But ultimately they die. The history of this tank i believe is relevant.  It was essentially the remnants of my old nano, the rock, mated clown pair, a cleaner shrimp.  I moved and bought a Biocube 32 to house them. Eventually that CLeaner shrimp died.  But had him for sometime so kinda just thought it was the natural evolution of things.  Kept the tank as is for a while and had a mushroom only tank. They took over and I wanted to be rid of them and get into housing corals again. So I bought Carib sea Life rock and swapped out my rock.  After stablization I started adding some corals.  Started with some hearty specimans, GSP, Paly's etc.. My GSP lost a lot of their color and turned brown.  Started testing and nitrates, phosphates are zero which was baffling to me. No skimmer but I was running a bag of Chemipure Elite and filterfloss with water changes. 

 

I now do WC every 2 weeks and have removed the chemipure.  The corals seem to be responding albeit slowly. I do not want to dose anything. Maybe iodine isnt the answer. But at this point I am more inclined to think its something missing more than something in my tank that is killing them. 

[snostorm]

11 hours ago, Crys said:

There are some interesting similarities between the two tanks.  I can't get my nitrate above 0 and I have no phosphates. (even had the lfs check them)    I also don't run a skimmer. My tank is 13.5 gal.  I feed a combination of shrimp, new life thera + and north fin veggies.  I feed once a day and do a 10% water change almost weekly.  The only crab I have left is an emerald crab that has never molted. I've had him for over 6 months.  He has a white bulge out of his side which I assume is him outgrowing his shell in a bad way.   I don't run a pristine tank.  I have algae, and gunk to syphon, I don't under feed but somehow things stay at 0.  It seems like there is always something to figure out.

yes!  very similar.  I do have bubble algae.  And some hair algae tends to accumulate at the water line. but thats it.  The system is 3 years old and the back chambers are rife with life, lots of coraline.....pods etc. LFS said I need more fish.....lol

 

[seabass]

39 minutes ago, snostorm said:

I do not want to dose anything. Maybe iodine isnt the answer. But at this point I am more inclined to think its something missing more than something in my tank that is killing them.

I'm not bashing Reef Crystals.  In fact, my last four batches of salt mix have been Reef Crystals (primarily for the cost savings).  However, maybe switching salt mixes (or as others suggested, food) would provide what your shrimp have been missing.

[Crys]

Hi,  Here is a picture of my poor emerald crab.  He is not eating the zoa's just cleaning out the algae in between them.  He does a great job of this.  I also included a picture of the mermaid fan.  A while back I had posted the question "how does it grow"  well the answer is well.  If anyone knows what is going on with the crab, let me know.

[snostorm]

Well apparently I still have zero phos and Nitrate in my tank.  No skimmer, no media, just filter floss.  My GSP have all lost their color, my zoas , torch, and monti are doing ok.  I have been adding Marine Snow, and some Reef roids but I still have no measurable Nitrate or phosphate. LFS guy says I need more fish.....lol.  Inhabitants are mated pair of clown fish, a bicolor, a big Emerald crab and a few nass snails. 

 

I have not been shy about feeding. I just cant seem to raise nutrients.  Im not liking the idea of dosing but thinking I might have to. Is there a best way to raise these params?

 

[seabass]

I might try dosing phytoplankton.  It might introduce some nutrients while encouraging beneficial competition (helping to prevent dinos), without introducing all of the organics from over feeding.

 

BTW, what phosphate kit are you using again?

[snostorm]

Just now, seabass said:

I might try dosing phytoplankton.  It might introduce some nutrients while encouraging beneficial competition (helping to prevent dinos), without introducing all of the organics from over feeding.

 

BTW, what phosphate kit are you using again?

Im using a Hanna checker for Phosphate. I have started dosing Marine Snow from Two Little fishies that I believe contains some Phyto. Just recently however.

 

[snostorm]

Welp, the toadstool is getting large. And of course the clowns have hosted it. But not the nem I gave up...lol

 

[snostorm]

thats a decidedly terrible picture. 

 

[snostorm]

[snostorm]

Well I thought I had a plating Monte. But this looks encrusting. It is certainly growing. Can anyone give me some input on exactly what I have growing here?