SPS Coral Prices (CRAZY)

[squamptonbc]

I always stayed away from online ordering as most if not all the places in Canada have crummy DOA policy, so if something dies its almost always store credit, and have to pay the $40-$50 shipping again for the replacement, not worth the risk really.

 

When I had my tank, I would give away frags I had, always pissed a few people of because I shouldn't be giving frags away, well they are my frags and if I wanna give them away I will so suck it up buttercup.

 

I roll my eyes at some of the prices, xenia for $40 for a tiny piece, really, or another easy to cultivate softies that overtook my tank like crazy for $50 for a tiny piece, but I guess people pay these prices.

 

I remember 10-15 years ago, I could get huge pieces on nice live rock for like $30, I miss those days.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

On 5/11/2020 at 11:50 AM, Clown79 said:

Sorry part of owning a company is having overhead expenses and a shipping box qualifies as such.

But...part of having overhead is building that overhead into your prices.  

 

If you don't, you go out of business.  As simple as 1-1=0.

 

But IMO costs aren't how they are arriving at these prices.

 

Growing copies of corals isn't really one of the meaningful business expenses (I can do that almost for free) but there are a ton of other expenses.  Rent is usually one of the big ones.  For example, If I wanted to open a store in my area like most of the stores you see online (nothing fancy) it would cost $4,000-5,000 a month in rent alone....possibly a lot more than that if you wanted the store to be in a prime retail spot.

 

Greed isn't an inherent function of business though, it's a function of the person running the business.

 

With coral prices I think we're talking more about price gouging than greed.  (Though could obviously be both.)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

 

I think online vendors are gouging mostly based on the continuing collapse of the LFS system...rolling more and more of what were traditional LFS sales up to Amazon and the other online players.  Fewer competitors = higher prices.  There are also supply issues on the wild-collected side of the hobby that figure in....reduced supply = higher prices.  Worth noting that a lot more energy is spent talking about the supply issues, which IMO are far less significant to the gouging.....just you never mind the continuing collapse on the other side.  😉

 

Since we're not talking about toilet paper or medicine and we've been voluntarily giving all those sales to online and taking them away from Main Street for a long while now, the fact is that nobody is going to care much about this kind of price gouging.  Customers don't really have any leverage other than not buying at prices they perceive as "too high"...which isn't really leverage at all.  But it is a vote.

 

Our hobby, for better and for worse, is a great showcase of caveat emptor.

Edited May 19, 2020 by mcarroll
cost vs prices typo at the beginning....corrected

[dling]

I do wonder what percentage of out hobby still comes from the ocean. As breeders get better and better about captive breed  I would think that most of the corals , at least sps are grown be the sellers. I can only imagine the electric bill pumps,lighting  ect. What I dont understand is that how one place can sell livestock at one price and another sell the same thing at a much higher price.  I do agree. It's really up to us ,the end buyer. I refuse to spend over a certain amount on any type of coral I buy. 60 is just about my limit. There my co.e a time when I either have to give in to higher prices or just give up. I dont like either choice. 

[OfficeReefer]

Ya I hear you. I can see how the current state has caused this to become more problematic. People have to make a living too and right now, people are willing to buy and the market is dictating that price. I have a three branch headed toxic green hammer coral about to grow another. I bought this for a deal a few years back, wonder what it's worth now?

[Clown79]

7 hours ago, mcarroll said:

But...part of having overhead is building that overhead into your prices.  

 

If you don't, you go out of business.  As simple as 1-1=0.

 

But IMO costs aren't how they are arriving at these prices.

 

Growing copies of corals isn't really one of the meaningful business expenses (I can do that almost for free) but there are a ton of other expenses.  Rent is usually one of the big ones.  For example, If I wanted to open a store in my area like most of the stores you see online (nothing fancy) it would cost $4,000-5,000 a month in rent alone....possibly a lot more than that if you wanted the store to be in a prime retail spot.

 

Greed isn't an inherent function of business though, it's a function of the person running the business.

 

With coral prices I think we're talking more about price gouging than greed.  (Though could obviously be both.)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

 

I think online vendors are gouging mostly based on the continuing collapse of the LFS system...rolling more and more of what were traditional LFS sales up to Amazon and the other online players.  Fewer competitors = higher prices.  There are also supply issues on the wild-collected side of the hobby that figure in....reduced supply = higher prices.  Worth noting that a lot more energy is spent talking about the supply issues, which IMO are far less significant to the gouging.....just you never mind the continuing collapse on the other side.  😉

 

Since we're not talking about toilet paper or medicine and we've been voluntarily giving all those sales to online and taking them away from Main Street for a long while now, the fact is that nobody is going to care much about this kind of price gouging.  Customers don't really have any leverage other than not buying at prices they perceive as "too high"...which isn't really leverage at all.  But it is a vote.

 

Our hobby, for better and for worse, is a great showcase of caveat emptor.

I don't buy online. Did it once and I didn't enjoy the experience.

 

There are no box charges here through online stores(most online shops here, have stores you can shop in) 

 

Customers shouldn't have to pay $10 for a box that costs a company less than a dollar.

[squamptonbc]

11 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I don't buy online. Did it once and I didn't enjoy the experience.

 

There are no box charges here through online stores(most online shops here, have stores you can shop in) 

 

Customers shouldn't have to pay $10 for a box that costs a company less than a dollar.

 

Regular box might be a $1 or less, but the boxes with the Styrofoam inserts do cost more. My last job we shipped perishable items and the insulated boxes ran us $3 to $5 per box, the bigger boxes did cost more as well. I can't recall seeing a proper insulated box for $1 from any of our suppliers.

 

Anyhow as for fees on top of product pricing, like airlines have learned, consumers are more likely to pay fees than higher prices for the basic service, which is why airlines for example moved to the fee for this and that model, passengers didn't tolerate higher fares, but they did tolerate fees they consider optional, and well hotels and other companies have followed, us consumers generally drive business decisions based on our buying behavior. People will literally buy X product because it costs 10 cents less.

 

 

[Tamberav]

32 minutes ago, squamptonbc said:

 

Regular box might be a $1 or less, but the boxes with the Styrofoam inserts do cost more. My last job we shipped perishable items and the insulated boxes ran us $3 to $5 per box, the bigger boxes did cost more as well. I can't recall seeing a proper insulated box for $1 from any of our suppliers.

 

Anyhow as for fees on top of product pricing, like airlines have learned, consumers are more likely to pay fees than higher prices for the basic service, which is why airlines for example moved to the fee for this and that model, passengers didn't tolerate higher fares, but they did tolerate fees they consider optional, and well hotels and other companies have followed, us consumers generally drive business decisions based on our buying behavior. People will literally buy X product because it costs 10 cents less.

 

 

I could tolerate a box fee if they didn't charge more for their stock then others and pack 25 trochus in 1 bag which guarantees you 25 dead snails and still a box fee 😔

 

 

[danimal1211]

The costs of shipping live coral properly is a different discussion.  The distributors tapped into the instant-gratification market many years ago. When I first got into this hobby in the early 2000's prices were based more on availability than demand. A Blue Tort is and has always been expensive because (a) people want them and (b) they're genuinely slow growers.

 

To contrast that when the purple hornet first hit the market, the colony that was collected was cut up and sold to a few collectors. Some of them had the idea to make a quick buck by breaking up their frag into individual polyps and selling them on Ebay. If I remember correctly the top price paid was $900 for one polyp. Before that no one paid by the polyp, What made matters worse was since it was a wild colony, being broken up into single polyps meant a colonizing animal thrust into a completely new environment had to fend for it self. A lot died, and the price rose higher. Just a couple years before that large colonies of zoas were typically $15-35 max. Now all of the sudden everything was being part and parceled.

 

It's funny that now purple Hornets, red Hornets, and whatever hornets are actually pretty fast growers and can  be found at reasonable  prices. Some people have to say 'I was the first.'

 

P.S. I just saw a three polyp frag of radioactive dragon eyes on sale for $50. Lmao

[mcarroll]

On 5/19/2020 at 11:37 AM, Clown79 said:

Customers shouldn't have to pay $10 for a box that costs a company less than a dollar.

I think I know what you're saying, and nobody is justifying a literal rip off charging $10 for a $1 box....

Cardboard Moving Boxes

$1.00 used

 

.....but whether they tell you you're paying $10 for a box or whether they build that into the unit-cost of the product itself, you ARE paying for that box.

 

And I'm guessing that you're talking about these fish shipping boxes, not ratty cardboard boxes as pictured above:  😉

 Enlarge

 

 

Fish shipping boxes are like US$30 new (see Uline.com).

 

But a LFS may have an excess of them from fish shipments, so might sell or even give them away.  But the store paid good money for them in the first place just the same....either as a line item, or built into the cost of the fish they bought.  

 

Passing these boxes on to a customer for $10 actually seems fair to me...might just be what they paid for it vs making profit on it.

 

At the store where I worked they were somewhat of a precious commodity so they would usually just be stockpiled and eventually used a second or third time, either for a customer order or for in-house usage...but never sold. They're outta business now, so maybe we should have had a "For Sale: $10" sign up? 🤷‍♂️

 

I think it's tough to stay in business vs (e.g.) Live Aquaria and Amazon.

[Tamberav]

52 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

I think I know what you're saying, and nobody is justifying a literal rip off charging $10 for a $1 box....

Cardboard Moving Boxes

$1.00 used

 

.....but whether they tell you you're paying $10 for a box or whether they build that into the unit-cost of the product itself, you ARE paying for that box.

 

And I'm guessing that you're talking about these fish shipping boxes, not ratty cardboard boxes as pictured above:  😉

 Enlarge

 

 

Fish shipping boxes are like US$30 new (see Uline.com).

 

But a LFS may have an excess of them from fish shipments, so might sell or even give them away.  But the store paid good money for them in the first place just the same....either as a line item, or built into the cost of the fish they bought.  

 

Passing these boxes on to a customer for $10 actually seems fair to me...might just be what they paid for it vs making profit on it.

 

At the store where I worked they were somewhat of a precious commodity so they would usually just be stockpiled and eventually used a second or third time, either for a customer order or for in-house usage...but never sold. They're outta business now, so maybe we should have had a "For Sale: $10" sign up? 🤷‍♂️

 

I think it's tough to stay in business vs (e.g.) Live Aquaria and Amazon.

 

I have to laugh about being built into cost...they want $180 dollars for a Kole tang. 🤣 + 10 dollars for the box.

 

Their stock used to disappear within seconds from being posted but moving a lot slower now....I'd blame covid but the prices skyrocketed before covid and I stopped shopping there for a long time now.

 

LA is just not smart shopping at this point. There are other venders doing better for less now. Probably a good thing for the LFS though as LA used to be unbeatable.

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

LA is just not smart shopping at this point. There are other venders doing better for less now. Probably a good thing for the LFS though as LA used to be unbeatable.

Online vendors do eat costs for promotional purposes all the time...especially when trying to establish a business.  Amazon has rolled up lots of Main Streets just on that tactic alone.

 

LA seems to have joined back with pricing reality, according to what you're saying...that box was never really free, and the fish prices may also have been artificially depressed for similar reasons up until recently. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[Tamberav]

48 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Online vendors do eat costs for promotional purposes all the time...especially when trying to establish a business.  Amazon has rolled up lots of Main Streets just on that tactic alone.

 

LA seems to have joined back with pricing reality, according to what you're saying...that box was never really free, and the fish prices may also have been artificially depressed for similar reasons up until recently. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

 

The only thing LA has is the name and being well known. They no longer have a superior product at a superior cost because other lesser known companies saw LA went up up up too...so they swooped in when they saw an opening.

[Clown79]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I think I know what you're saying, and nobody is justifying a literal rip off charging $10 for a $1 box....

Cardboard Moving Boxes

$1.00 used

 

.....but whether they tell you you're paying $10 for a box or whether they build that into the unit-cost of the product itself, you ARE paying for that box.

 

And I'm guessing that you're talking about these fish shipping boxes, not ratty cardboard boxes as pictured above:  😉

 Enlarge

 

 

Fish shipping boxes are like US$30 new (see Uline.com).

 

But a LFS may have an excess of them from fish shipments, so might sell or even give them away.  But the store paid good money for them in the first place just the same....either as a line item, or built into the cost of the fish they bought.  

 

Passing these boxes on to a customer for $10 actually seems fair to me...might just be what they paid for it vs making profit on it.

 

At the store where I worked they were somewhat of a precious commodity so they would usually just be stockpiled and eventually used a second or third time, either for a customer order or for in-house usage...but never sold. They're outta business now, so maybe we should have had a "For Sale: $10" sign up? 🤷‍♂️

 

I think it's tough to stay in business vs (e.g.) Live Aquaria and Amazon.

Adding an additional charge for boxes on top of already inflated prices isn't right especially with larger companies.

 

 

 

I say this because here everything is more expensive than in the US and our reef stores are small independent business's and I have yet to see anyone charge an additional $10 for cardboard and styrofoam boxes. 

 

 

 

 

[squamptonbc]

15 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Adding an additional charge for boxes on top of already inflated prices isn't right especially with larger companies.

 

 

 

I say this because here everything is more expensive than in the US and our reef stores are small independent business's and I have yet to see anyone charge an additional $10 for cardboard and styrofoam boxes. 

 

 

 

 

It's just built into that $40-$50 shipping charge in Canada... ha ha

 

I do know of a couple freshwater online vendors who charge for the box, but the profit margin on freshwater fish is probably lower and they can't eat the cost when someone wants 2.99 tetras....lol