Nitrate dosing

[mcarroll]

18 hours ago, risk1994 said:

• I checked nitrate 1hr after dosing on 4/13 and got a 1.5, so I know the kit is working  but this tank is eating up nitrate and phosphate, I cant keep levels up.
• Alk is starting to drop like a stone...is this something to be expected?  Its usually very stable for me...

I agree that the usage on po4 and no3 is totally expected.  Congratulations!   You're system is alive and growing!  👍

 

Until the tank has competely turned around, you can freely dose po4 and no3 based on testing results....maintain those levels "aggressively" just like you would alk.

 

Am I understanding correctly that the alk was just a testing error?

[risk1994]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I agree that the usage on po4 and no3 is totally expected.  Congratulations!   You're system is alive and growing!  👍

Thanks!  Not bad after 3yrs!

Quote

 

m I understanding correctly that the alk was just a testing error?

Yes.  Must have been.

 

So Im going to keep adding no3 and po4 twice daily to 3 and .02 respectively.  I only run the skimmer for like 1hr and my filter only has floss.  Feed fish twice per day and corals once per week...liberally.

 

Ill keep this up until i can maintain measurable levels, then move on from there.

 

Nasty brown diatoms (or cyano, cant tell) are already starting to rear their ugly heads...

 

[xthunt]

8 hours ago, risk1994 said:

With all this testing I've run out of Hanna alk reagent, had to switch to salifert.

 

My alk is dropping like crazy and Im starting to wonder if Im reading it correctly.  I normally use the Hanna...

 

can someone tell me what this salifert alk test is saying?  I know how I read it but I MUST be reading it wrong.

 

I might be looking at the syringe wrong, but it looks like the numbers on it are printed backwards. ‘1.0’ should be at the plunger end, and ‘0.1’ should be at the tip end. Thats how my salifert alk syringe is.
 

Keep up checking and dosing the nitrate each day. The tank will stop using so much over time. I got to the point where I check, and ‘top off’ nitrate once a week, and theres still some left. 

[risk1994]

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Am I understanding correctly that the alk was just a testing error?

If you can call not being able to tell the difference between the syringe on the left from the one on the right...then yes...testing error.

 

 

or you can call it what I do...stupidity.

 

Xhunt gets the cigar!

[mcarroll]

9 hours ago, risk1994 said:

So Im going to keep adding no3 and po4 twice daily to 3 and .02 respectively.

If PO4 is returning to zero between doses, then you should opt for a higher target level such as 0.10 ppm.  This is the level I've recommended in most cases...it's enough to have an immediate positive effect while still being only a small amount of phosphate.

 

9 hours ago, risk1994 said:

I only run the skimmer for like 1hr and my filter only has floss.

The skimmer isn't going to remove anything significant, even if it's running full-tilt...throttle it back to skim dry if you want though.   IMO the aeration it provides is at least as valuable to the tank as the filtration it provides, so I would keep it running as close to 24/7 as you can.

 

If the filter floss seems to be catching stuff, remember that you want that "stuff" that it's catching to be in the display tank, floating around as planktonic/marine snow type food for the big and small critters (and corals) in there.  If the floss isn't catching anything, then it's not needed.  Either way you get the same conclusion: ditch the floss.

 

5 hours ago, risk1994 said:

At least you got it figured out! 👍

[risk1994]

So after about a week I managed to get No3 and Po4 up to decent levels,

 

Seems I'll have to start dosing it regularly.  I assumed once I got it up to a certain level it would only need to be done once a week or so.

 

If I leave it more than 1 day and No3 is present, Po4 drops to 0.  Nitrate seems to hang on better, but the tank really seems to eat up Po4 like crazy.  As you can see I had to start testing twice daily just to keep up!

 

I've been feeding WAY more than usual but still cant hold Po4 for long.

 

I wonder this is a small tank issue...less volume.  I very rarely hear mention about phosphate dosing though, maybe its just something about my tank.

 

		nitrate	nitrate dose (after test)	phosphate	phosphate dose (after test)
4-11		0	3.75ml	0.012
4-13		0	3.75ml	0.04
4-14		0	2ml	0.018
4-15	am	0.75	3.75ml	0	1ml
	pm	1.5	1.8ml	0.034
4-16	am	1.5	2ml	0	2ml
	pm	3	2ml	0	4ml + 4ml
4-17	am	4	2ml	0.04	1ml
	pm	4		0.02	1.5ml
4-18	am	4		0.055
	pm	2	3.7ml	0.024	1.5ml
4-19	am	4		0.024
	pm	3	2ml	0.018	1.5ml
4-20	am	4		0.024	1.5ml
	pm	2	3.75ml	0.04
4-21	am	4		0.001	4ml
	pm	4		0.06

[mcarroll]

Remind me:  What size is that tank, what fish are in it, and what/how much are you feeding them?

[risk1994]

10g

2 small clowns once or twice daily

3 sexy shrimp 

Feed corals pellets once per week

 

[mcarroll]

I assume that means pellets for the fish as well....just daily instead of weekly.

 

If you think you can feed the fish more, I would do it.

 

If you think you could feed the corals less, I would also do that.

 

If you can work some frozen food into their diet, that's another one I'd do.

 

In general if nutrients don't seem to be accumulating in the water, then you have room to feed the fish more.  

 

It's not an all or nothing, but (again) in general, the more you feed, the more important that some of it (or most of it...or all of it) be frozen or even better, live.

[roblox84]

I have the exact same issue as you over the past several years, nothing i did has worked. My current tank has no skimmer, no mechanical filtration and still has 0 nitrates and coral growth is so slow and some other frags have died (mainly lps). I'm going to begin nitrate dosing tomorrow and hopefully that fixes the issue. 

[risk1994]

12 hours ago, roblox84 said:

I have the exact same issue as you over the past several years, nothing i did has worked. My current tank has no skimmer, no mechanical filtration and still has 0 nitrates and coral growth is so slow and some other frags have died (mainly lps). I'm going to begin nitrate dosing tomorrow and hopefully that fixes the issue. 

Ive only had Nitrates/Phosphates greater than 0 for about a week now so its too early to tell the effect,

 

I can tell the corals are reacting though, torches randomly close up, gorgonians seem retracted more than usual, however it does seem that the color is better in the tank and I get really good feeding response.  Dragons breath has great color, thats something I've never been able to keep before, GSP same thing.  Overall I would say things look better, not much more algae to speak of either.  Im very optimistic. 

 

Keep in mind its not just Nitrate, its also Phosphate, you have to monitor them both as they interact.  Phosphate got sucked up so fast I had to start dosing twice a day, hoping that levels out.

 

 

[roblox84]

1 hour ago, risk1994 said:

Ive only had Nitrates/Phosphates greater than 0 for about a week now so its too early to tell the effect,

 

I can tell the corals are reacting though, torches randomly close up, gorgonians seem retracted more than usual, however it does seem that the color is better in the tank and I get really good feeding response.  Dragons breath has great color, thats something I've never been able to keep before, GSP same thing.  Overall I would say things look better, not much more algae to speak of either.  Im very optimistic. 

 

Keep in mind its not just Nitrate, its also Phosphate, you have to monitor them both as they interact.  Phosphate got sucked up so fast I had to start dosing twice a day, hoping that levels out.

 

 

I didn't buy phosphate unfortunately. I found out that nitrogen sucks up phosphates too late. You think i should wait to start dosing until i have phosphate in hand?

[jservedio]

1 hour ago, roblox84 said:

I didn't buy phosphate unfortunately. I found out that nitrogen sucks up phosphates too late. You think i should wait to start dosing until i have phosphate in hand?

Absolutely - you really have no idea what the limiting factor in your system is (whether it's Carbon, Nitrogen, or Phosphorus) when everything is low, so dosing just nitrate can lead to your phosphates actually dropping further if your tank was nitrogen limited and cause more issues. Your best bet until you have both in hand is to increase your feeding and not change the water as much unless you need to for Alk/Ca/Mg.

 

You really need to have both on hand and be dosing both to get them both readable. Once they are both readable and rising, you can make adjustments to how much of each you have to dose to keep things stable. The end goal being to not have to dose any nutrients.

[roblox84]

6 minutes ago, jservedio said:

Absolutely - you really have no idea what the limiting factor in your system is (whether it's Carbon, Nitrogen, or Phosphorus) when everything is low, so dosing just nitrate can lead to your phosphates actually dropping further if your tank was nitrogen limited and cause more issues. Your best bet until you have both in hand is to increase your feeding and not change the water as much unless you need to for Alk/Ca/Mg.

 

You really need to have both on hand and be dosing both to get them both readable. Once they are both readable and rising, you can make adjustments to how much of each you have to dose to keep things stable. The end goal being to not have to dose any nutrients.

Funny thing is even when I stretched water changes to once a month it seemed to make no impact other than higher phosphates, more algae but still 0 nitrates. Now I'm guessing that happened because I just let detrius rot in the tank and still wasn't feeding enough fresh food to the system which corals prefer? 

[mcarroll]

32 minutes ago, risk1994 said:

Dragons breath

Glad to hear those positive responses.

 

If you're ALSO trying to cultivate macro algae along with your corals, it's possible you could end up needing to supplement more than just N and P.

ESV offers Transition Elements for more or less that purpose:

 

(The "Plus+" version includes carbon dosing, so avoid that version and continue to avoid other carbon dosing products.)

 

1 hour ago, roblox84 said:

I didn't buy phosphate unfortunately. I found out that nitrogen sucks up phosphates too late. You think i should wait to start dosing until i have phosphate in hand?

Yes, wait.  Spiking nitrogen levels while corals are potentially phosphate deprived can really upset their symbiosis with their Dino's.

 

Check out these articles I saved:

29 OCT 2016 - The response of the scleractinian coral Turbinaria reniformis to thermal stress depends on the nitrogen status of the coral holobiont

23 MAY 2017 - Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?

5 JAN 2018 - The Assimilation of Diazotroph-Derived Nitrogen by Scleractinian Corals Depends on Their Metabolic Status

25 OCT 2016 - Is the coral-algae symbiosis really ‘mutually beneficial’ for the partners?

[risk1994]

7 minutes ago, roblox84 said:

Funny thing is even when I stretched water changes to once a month it seemed to make no impact other than higher phosphates, more algae but still 0 nitrates. Now I'm guessing that happened because I just let detrius rot in the tank and still wasn't feeding enough fresh food to the system which corals prefer? 

When I started dosing nitrate my phosphate dropped to zero quickly.  I wouldnt dose either until I had test kits and supplement for both.  If your tank is like mine youll need both.

 

If you look at my chart above youll see how much I had to dose in a 10g just to keep the phosphate around .02.

[risk1994]

9 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Glad to hear those positive responses.

 

If you're ALSO trying to cultivate macro algae along with your corals, it's possible you could end up needing to supplement more than just N and P.

ESV offers Transition Elements for more or less that purpose:

 

Ugh...something else to dose!  Id sooner take it out!  Im already not happy about having to dose 2 more things.

[risk1994]

4 hours ago, jservedio said:

Your best bet until you have both in hand is to increase your feeding and not change the water as much

I think I may have gone a little overboard with the increased feeding...look at this guys belly!  If nothing else I'll have the fattest clowns on NR.

 

[roblox84]

57 minutes ago, risk1994 said:

I think I may have gone a little overboard with the increased feeding...look at this guys belly!  If nothing else I'll have the fattest clowns on NR.

 

I want a fat fish! I'm about to make my clown fat too.

[Saultman]

Following 

[roblox84]

On 4/23/2020 at 5:40 PM, risk1994 said:

When I started dosing nitrate my phosphate dropped to zero quickly.  I wouldnt dose either until I had test kits and supplement for both.  If your tank is like mine youll need both.

 

If you look at my chart above youll see how much I had to dose in a 10g just to keep the phosphate around .02.

Started dosing nitrate and phosphate yesterday. I dosed up to 5ppm nitrate and .02 phosphate, today it was reading 0 again so I redosed. Will check again tomorrow.

 

Although i must say, i was probably WAY too light on the feedings. I started feeding more this past week including the anenome and everything seems to be coloring up better, especially the acans and bubble tip which used to be mainly just red.

 

 

[risk1994]

25 minutes ago, roblox84 said:

Started dosing nitrate and phosphate yesterday. I dosed up to 5ppm nitrate and .02 phosphate, today it was reading 0 again so I redosed. Will check again tomorrow.

If your tank is anything like mine it will take days to hold on to phosphate.  Once I had a stable nitrate above zero, phosphates got sucked up.  Take a look at my chart above, even now I'm at a point where Ill need to dose phosphate 2mls probably every 2-3 days it seems.  Stinks, something else to dose.

 

On the bright side, I've been feeding my fish WAY more than normal lately and FINALLY my 2 clowns are getting along!  I've been through several pairs trying to get a mated pair that wouldnt kill each other.  I had my lfs get me some newborns to help with this but one always chews up the other...now with daily (sometimes twice daily) feedings, theyre swimming next to each other and being kind.  Its great to see them swimming alongside each other in their little nook.  Yet another benefit of increased phosphate!

[roblox84]

1 hour ago, risk1994 said:

If your tank is anything like mine it will take days to hold on to phosphate.  Once I had a stable nitrate above zero, phosphates got sucked up.  Take a look at my chart above, even now I'm at a point where Ill need to dose phosphate 2mls probably every 2-3 days it seems.  Stinks, something else to dose.

 

On the bright side, I've been feeding my fish WAY more than normal lately and FINALLY my 2 clowns are getting along!  I've been through several pairs trying to get a mated pair that wouldnt kill each other.  I had my lfs get me some newborns to help with this but one always chews up the other...now with daily (sometimes twice daily) feedings, theyre swimming next to each other and being kind.  Its great to see them swimming alongside each other in their little nook.  Yet another benefit of increased phosphate!

That dosing seems like a PITA considering how inconsistently the nitrate/phosphate drops. I don't think i can keep up with testing everyday so I will just have to compromise and maybe dose half of what I'm dosing now consistently everyday and maybe test once a week to make sure the nitrate/phosphate is at least showing up on the test.

 

I wonder if this is a certain type of live rock issue or too much live rock? I used porous dead rock 1lb per gallon in my 55g, 125g, 28g and now my 5g and all 4 tanks had this issue. My very first 20g was all live rock which wasn't very porous and I didn't have a low nitrate issue. I just set up a 20g using life rock which doesn't seem very porous so I guess I'll see how this tank does.

 

[xthunt]

Something else to think about, Ive never really had nitrate show on a test unless I dosed it, except one short time when I was feeding frozen (LRS reef frenzy nano). Im lazy so I always do pellets. Dry coral foods never made nitrate for me either. Frozen food was the only thing that gave nitrate without dosing. 

[risk1994]

12 hours ago, roblox84 said:

That dosing seems like a PITA considering how inconsistently the nitrate/phosphate drops. I don't think i can keep up with testing everyday so I will just have to compromise and maybe dose half of what I'm dosing now consistently everyday and maybe test once a week to make sure the nitrate/phosphate is at least showing up on the test.

 

I wonder if this is a certain type of live rock issue or too much live rock? I used porous dead rock 1lb per gallon in my 55g, 125g, 28g and now my 5g and all 4 tanks had this issue. My very first 20g was all live rock which wasn't very porous and I didn't have a low nitrate issue. I just set up a 20g using life rock which doesn't seem very porous so I guess I'll see how this tank does.

 

Ive never used live rock and I've always had this issue, not sure if they are related though.

10 hours ago, xthunt said:

Something else to think about, Ive never really had nitrate show on a test unless I dosed it, except one short time when I was feeding frozen (LRS reef frenzy nano). Im lazy so I always do pellets. Dry coral foods never made nitrate for me either. Frozen food was the only thing that gave nitrate without dosing. 

I think someone mentioned that earlier in the thread.  This sounds plausible to me... I may start using frozen food more.