Nitrate dosing

[risk1994]

I could really use some advice...sorry for the long post...I'd really love to take this to the next level and am struggling.

 

My 10 gallon has been going for several years now.  I've usually been able to keep many soft/lps but tank has never thrived.  Ive kept nano reef tanks for many more years, but always the same result.

 

• Growth is always very slow if at all. 
• Colors wash out over time on most coral.
• Many corals seem to wither over a long period of decline. (check out those euphylias on the bottom right, those use to be much bigger years ago)
• Cannot keep many easy corals, like GSP/Xenia/Zoa.
• constantly dealing with cyano/algae (bubble usually)

 

I decided this year I was going to get some this tank to color up and get some growth.  With the New England Frag Farmers Market in March I wanted to be able to get some corals and have them do well.  I added the skimmer, started more frequent checking alk/cal, dosing for stability and removing algae as often as it would appear.  I've typically been fairly good at this but want to tighten up my regimen.

 

I got a Hannah phosphorous and Red Sea nitrate test kit as I rarely ever check those.  Nitrate shows zero, phosphate shows very very low.  This has ALWAYS been the case for me.  I have NEVER had detectable nitrate in all the years I've kept coral.  Im usually stingy with fish feeding and feed the corals only very rarely.  As I often deal with Cyano I do everything in my power to keep phosphates low...and they always have been.

 

Im starting to think this might be the issue.  I've read Zero nitrates lead to washed out color and slow growth..and cyano oddly.

 

I dosed 2.5ml brightwell neonitro yesterday here are the results...

before;

    nitrate - 0

    phosphate - .04

24hrs later

    nitrate - 0

    phosphate - .009

 

So nitrate is unchanged and phosphate dropped, (although the levels are so low Im not sure its accurately testable in such low concentrations).  According to brightwell this means Im carbon limited.  But do I keep dosing nitrate (like step 4 says) or do I get some BIOFUEL (as step 3 says)?

 

 

 

2. Apply NEONITRO as directed below to attain a nitrate concentration of ~3 ppm.

3. Allow 24-hours to elapse; re-test nitrate and phosphate concentrations. If concentrations remain unchanged, then the system is likely carbon-limited. Dose with REEF BIOFUEL at the rate of 1-ml per 25 US-gallons and allow 24-hours to elapse, then re-test phosphate and nitrate concentrations. Continue daily dosing with REEF BIOFUEL until phosphate or nitrate concentrations begin to decrease, indicating that the rate of carbon input to the system
matches the rate of phosphorus- or nitrogen-input, respectively.

4. If phosphate concentration decreases without addition of REEF BIOFUEL or use of KATALYST, nitrate concentration in the system will decrease. Continue dosing with NEONITRO to maintain nitrate concentration of
~3 - 5 ppm until phosphate concentration falls to within desired range (suggested 0.01 - 0.02 ppm). Thereafter, dose
with NEONITRO as required to maintain desired phosphate and nitrate concentrations.

 

tank - 10g rimless

lighting - 2 kessil A80

filter - Tunze Comline Nanofilter 3161, just running floss, biomedia and occasionally rox.8 and GFO in a bag.

skimmer  - OCT-BH50 Reef Octopus Nano in-Tank Skimmer, added 1 month ago, never used a skimmer before.  Pulls decent amount of wet skimmate.

Salt - RedSea blue bucket.

dosing - all for reef 1 part, about 2ml per day via dosing pump

WC - typically 1-2G every 2-3 weeks.

 

PH - 8.3 (very stable)

Alk - 9.2 - 9.9 (stable in that range)

Cal - 450 - 480 (stable in that range)

mg - 1250 - 1400 (I very rarely test this)

salinity - 1.025

Temp - 79

 

 

 

 

 

[mitten_reef]

Just slowly increase your feeding frequencies, make sure not to shock your system with excess nutrients.  Corals are animals, they need to eat.  Photosynthesis should not be assumed as the main source of growth/energy for majority of these guys. You could also skim less or take the skimmer off altogether to see whether your nutrient will rise.
Why try to juggle with removing AND adding game, seem harder to dial in balance, but that’s just me. 

[xthunt]

Just keep up the daily dosing of nitrate, and testing. Eventually (about a week for me), the tank will stop using it all up so fast. 

[jdi1982]

I would take the most simple approach and just turn off the skimmer for a week. Hopefully, with the skimmer not running, the nitrates will start to climb a bit and will alleviate the need to dose nitrates. 

[Clown79]

The issue with coral health and even nuisance algae is due to the low to no phos and nitrates.

 

Low phos can cause numerous issues and with low nitrates, its double whammy.

Lack of growth, lack of colour, nuisance algae, and even dino- all caused by lack of nutrients 

 

Using media that reduces nitrates and phosphates is an issue. If you don't have any nutrients, you are stripping any tiny bit of it that may be present.

 

Try a more natural approach. Floss and activated carbon(small amount for just toxin control)

 

Stop using rox, gfo, turn the skimmer off, feed daily, feed coral food 2 times a week, maybe dose some phyto.

 

You need to get the nutrients up.

[risk1994]

So weird, you spend all this time trying to keep the tank as clean as possible...how many times do we hear "dont overfeed",  "overfeeding is #1 cause of issues", "step one of fixing algae is address nutrient import" etc. etc. etc...  Now I need to deliberately feed more and filter less.

[jservedio]

38 minutes ago, risk1994 said:

So weird, you spend all this time trying to keep the tank as clean as possible...how many times do we hear "dont overfeed",  "overfeeding is #1 cause of issues", "step one of fixing algae is address nutrient import" etc. etc. etc...  Now I need to deliberately feed more and filter less.

The thinking around keeping reefs has changed so much over the last few years. Just 5 years ago many people had ULNS and ZeoVit systems that kept nutrients down at close to zero. Turns out attempting to limit just a single parameter or two in an extraordinarily complex system causes more problems than it solves.

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, risk1994 said:

So weird, you spend all this time trying to keep the tank as clean as possible...how many times do we hear "dont overfeed",  "overfeeding is #1 cause of issues", "step one of fixing algae is address nutrient import" etc. etc. etc...  Now I need to deliberately feed more and filter less.

I started the hobby in mid 2000's and nutrients was a no no. Everyone was leading everyone to sterile environments. It looks pretty but really isn't beneficial.

 

When I got back into the hobby I tried maintaining low nutrients. Stuck in the old mindset.

I didn't try hard, if anything I had a hard time keeping nutrients.

 

 

Then I learned what a mistake that was. I had minimal growth and ended up with dino's last yr.

 

I changed everything.

 

I feed twice a day to my fish.

I feed reef roids 2 times a week

Dose phyto 1-2 times a week

Waterchanges are small and every 10-14 days

 

I stopped all media besides floss and regular carbon, carbon used in small quantities just for toxin control.

 

I still have a hard time getting nitrates but phos stays up.

 

I only use a tiny amount of phosguard if my phos gets above 0.20 and I monitor levels when I use it.

[risk1994]

2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I feed twice a day to my fish.

I feed reef roids 2 times a week

Dose phyto 1-2 times a week

Waterchanges are small and every 10-14 days

 

I stopped all media besides floss and regular carbon, carbon used in small quantities just for toxin control.

I only use a tiny amount of phosguard if my phos gets above 0.20 and I monitor levels when I use it.

 

Do you skim?  Any algae/dino issues?

[Clown79]

4 hours ago, risk1994 said:

 

Do you skim?  Any algae/dino issues?

No skimmer, no reactor.

 

No dino, only algae is film algae on glass that I clean 1 time a week

[mcarroll]

On 4/8/2020 at 9:59 PM, risk1994 said:

Nitrate shows zero, phosphate shows very very low.  This has ALWAYS been the case for me.  I have NEVER had detectable nitrate in all the years I've kept coral.  Im usually stingy with fish feeding and feed the corals only very rarely.  As I often deal with Cyano I do everything in my power to keep phosphates low...and they always have been.

 

Im starting to think this might be the issue.  I've read Zero nitrates lead to washed out color and slow growth..and cyano oddly.

This, in a nutshell.   You nailed it.  (Just to confirm.)

 

Cyano is from the low nutrients too.  Not just low nitrates tho.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 9:59 PM, risk1994 said:

I dosed 2.5ml brightwell neonitro yesterday

What level of nitrate was that supposed to generate according to the calculation on the bottle?

 

Don't hesitate to dose up to 5-10 ppm or higher.  Especially if you dose and re-test only to find levels back at or near zero.  Re-dose up the target level again on the spot if you see that happen.  Usually twice is plenty, but re-test again to see where things land.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 9:59 PM, risk1994 said:

So nitrate is unchanged and phosphate dropped

Something was able to use up the nitrates completely but only some of the phosphate.   That's OK.

 

Having phosphates up (>0.03 ppm) is the only thing that's truly crucial.   And even that will become less important as the tank really matures and becomes able to recycle LOTS more nutrients.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 9:59 PM, risk1994 said:

filter - Tunze Comline Nanofilter 3161, just running floss, biomedia and occasionally rox.8 and GFO in a bag.

Keep this running empty for the time being.  Floss at most...but even that I'd personally leave out.  It's just snatching food from your corals and fish.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 9:59 PM, risk1994 said:

skimmer  - OCT-BH50 Reef Octopus Nano in-Tank Skimmer, added 1 month ago, never used a skimmer before.  Pulls decent amount of wet skimmate.

Keep this running, but maybe opt for a dry skim until things even out nutrient-wise.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 9:59 PM, risk1994 said:

PH - 8.3 (very stable)

Unusual for an indoor tank.   Something like 7.8 (or even lower) is more normal due to all the people and pets breathing excess CO2 into the air.  Any idea why yours seems relatively high?   High pH isn't helping things, BTW.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 9:59 PM, risk1994 said:

Beautiful tank!!!  Love those corals!

 

Aesthetically I'd consider a Tunze 9001 skimmer to match your filter unit.  That RO skimmer is functionally nice 👍, but dominates the view of the tank 👎.  😉

 

On 4/9/2020 at 1:31 PM, risk1994 said:

So weird, you spend all this time trying to keep the tank as clean as possible...how many times do we hear "dont overfeed",  "overfeeding is #1 cause of issues", "step one of fixing algae is address nutrient import" etc. etc. etc...  Now I need to deliberately feed more and filter less.

I don't know what the hangup was, looking back.  

 

It's like the prevailing wisdom just became utterly detached from biological reality somewhere along the line.

 

Somehow the equation ALGAE - PO4 = NO ALGAE made sense...like reefs happen in a vacuum?  🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ 

 

The massive failure ratio of that "- PO4" approach vs algae was never really associated with the approach, which kind of let the whole thing snowball into the ULNS Beast.   LOL   (The failure rate was and is massive. >50% by my guess.  Similar to getting lucky.)

 

A very weird trend looking back....but even getting into the hobby back in the early 1990's as I did, I admit that I was in the same mindset (lower = better for nutrients) until around 2015-16.  (I dunno, if anyone cared, run a google search on "MCARROLL" "NITRATES" and maybe you could see when I changed my tune....maybe 2013.  Good luck digging up my posts from the 1990's tho.  I will only say that's "it's possible".  😉)  

 

Eric Borneman was one of the only authors (not THE only) I remember talking the other way...I didn't really "get it" at the time, and he seemed to get drummed out of the hobby after his Corals book.  🤷‍♂️

[risk1994]

Wow thanks for that detailed reply...I actually contacted Brightwell for some clarification on how to move forward....no response..

 

So here is my plan of attack,

   - dose nitrate every day to get to 3

   - dose phosphate every day to get to .02

   - feed fish liberally every day, feed corals twice a week.

   - pray I don't get the mother of all algae outbreaks.

When nitrate/phosphate levels get to that level I'll start backing off to see if I can maintain levels with just feeding.

 

BTW - I realize that skimmer looks ridiculous in there.  As I really want to see if I can get corals thriving this year I didn't want to fool around with my first skimmer, I got one I was fairly certain would work...and it does.  I'm willing to give up looks for success at this point. 

 

The plan was to upgrade to a reefer 350 at some point but I wasn't going to spend that kind of money until I was sure I could actually get corals to really thrive.

[jservedio]

1 hour ago, risk1994 said:

Wow thanks for that detailed reply...I actually contacted Brightwell for some clarification on how to move forward....no response..

 

So here is my plan of attack,

   - dose nitrate every day to get to 3

   - dose phosphate every day to get to .02

   - feed fish liberally every day, feed corals twice a week.

   - pray I don't get the mother of all algae outbreaks.

When nitrate/phosphate levels get to that level I'll start backing off to see if I can maintain levels with just feeding.

 

BTW - I realize that skimmer looks ridiculous in there.  As I really want to see if I can get corals thriving this year I didn't want to fool around with my first skimmer, I got one I was fairly certain would work...and it does.  I'm willing to give up looks for success at this point. 

 

The plan was to upgrade to a reefer 350 at some point but I wasn't going to spend that kind of money until I was sure I could actually get corals to really thrive.

 

Don't be discouraged if you do get an algae outbreak, because you almost certainly will. Your tank is going to take a while to adjust to the new nutrient levels and the massive amount of organics you will be adding to the water column and will take much longer for the little critters that thrive in this environment to react when compared to algae. The myriad of pods, sponges, tunicates, worms, snails, limpets, etc. all take much longer to grow their populations than algae, but they surely will over time.

[Candymancan]

Here is my advice.. take the skimmer out.. its not needed and its ugly..  Add more fish and feed the tank 2-4 times a day.. Dont dose nitrates lol.   I dont get why people do that.   Skimmers are abbsolutetly not needed.

 

My 135 has no skimmer, no sump, just 2 hobs for mechanical filtration.  I have no cyano, no hair algae, no diatoms, no pest algae at all.  But its mainly due to the cleanup crew and having 5 tangs and a foxface, along with other algae eating fish and critters..  

 

Algae can be easily maintained and eliminated if you have the right  amount of cleanup crew and the right fish to eliminate the hair algae..  My nitrates are 40-50ppm and i dont even check phosphates anymore.. The tank just works, and i have 12 Acroporas.. some are 150-200 acros as well, and 50 other types of corals   I know itll be harder to do this ina tiny tank, but just saying

[jservedio]

5 hours ago, Candymancan said:

Here is my advice.. take the skimmer out.. its not needed and its ugly..  Add more fish and feed the tank 2-4 times a day.. Dont dose nitrates lol.   I dont get why people do that.   Skimmers are abbsolutetly not needed.

 

My 135 has no skimmer, no sump, just 2 hobs for mechanical filtration.  I have no cyano, no hair algae, no diatoms, no pest algae at all.  But its mainly due to the cleanup crew and having 5 tangs and a foxface, along with other algae eating fish and critters..  

 

Algae can be easily maintained and eliminated if you have the right  amount of cleanup crew and the right fish to eliminate the hair algae..  My nitrates are 40-50ppm and i dont even check phosphates anymore.. The tank just works, and i have 12 Acroporas.. some are 150-200 acros as well, and 50 other types of corals   I know itll be harder to do this ina tiny tank, but just saying

Yeah, a Kole tang would be absolutely perfect for keeping up nutrients and taking care of excess algae in OP's 10g, I wonder why nobody thought of that!?

[risk1994]

1 hour ago, jservedio said:

Yeah, a Kole tang would be absolutely perfect for keeping up nutrients and taking care of excess algae in OP's 10g, I wonder why nobody thought of that!?

True...

 

Seriously though, my family would love another fish but I have 2 small clowns now and one of them is incredibly aggressive...what other fish could I possible put in that could survive?  (besides a grouper of course)

[jservedio]

Just now, risk1994 said:

True...

 

Seriously though, my family would love another fish but I have 2 small clowns now and one of them is incredibly aggressive...what other fish could I possible put in that could survive?  (besides a grouper of course)

Not much - those clowns aren't going to be small for long and in a 10g, most of it is going to be their territory. If you get another fish, definitely just one, and something that is really good at hiding - maybe a small blenny like a tailspot or a small goby would work.

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, risk1994 said:

my family would love another fish but I have 2 small clowns now and one of them is incredibly aggressive...what other fish could I possible put in that could survive?  (besides a grouper of course)

I like the grouper idea, but I still wouldn't go all in against the clowns if we were betting.  😉

 

There's no way I'd put more fish into that tank.  👍

 

4 hours ago, jservedio said:

those clowns aren't going to be small for long and in a 10g, most of it is going to be their territory.

I'd even go (a little) further and say that unless those clowns both pair AND find a host, they won't last long-term together in the 10 Gallon.  One of them will die of harassment.  Paired and hosted is the only time their territory (and aggression) would acceptably fit in that small a tank IMO.

 

If hosting happens, then I'd say then might be room for another fish like you suggested.   Personally, I think I'd still try to upgrade by one or two tank-sizes to at least the 20 Gallon range before I did that.  

 

But then I always opt. to give my fish "a lot" of space compared to most.  

 

For example, my 125 Gallon has a Yellow Tang and Black Damselfish.  That's it for vertebrates.  

 

My old 36" tanks (37 Gallon and 50 Gallon) never had anything bigger than a Barnacle Benny in them....most of the time those tanks had no fish at all since there aren't many saltwater fish actually available in that size category that I was interested in keeping.  (Check that link if you don't know Barnacle Blennies....one of my all-time favorite fish.)

 

Not necessarily suggesting my stocking approach for @risk1994, just sayin' for perspective that it works and it's an approach that I and my fish both seem to like.

[risk1994]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I like the grouper idea, but I still wouldn't go all in against the clowns if we were betting.  😉

 

There's no way I'd put more fish into that tank.  👍

 

I'd even go (a little) further and say that unless those clowns both pair AND find a host, they won't last long-term together in the 10 Gallon.  One of them will die of harassment.  Paired and hosted is the only time their territory (and aggression) would acceptably fit in that small a tank IMO.

 

This is so true...I've had clowns do a full bum rush on ME last time I went diving.

 

I had a clown for like 10 yrs die recently and I have been DESPERATELY trying to get a mated pair in there for this exact reason.  No matter what I do I wind up having to return them to try again.  I got my lfs to get a batch of tiny ones for me so I could get them as young as possible...they were staying in their little cubby together happily for days, only for one to tear the other apart shortly after bringing home.  I went to another store that had 2 beautiful mochas together for a long time, got them home and within a week had to return them.  Im beginning to wonder if its even possible to have a pair in a tank this small.

 

 

[mcarroll]

I wonder if they have some inspiration from roaming predators?  That kind of inspiration is lacking in a fish tank, leaving it more up to random instinct.

 

There aren't many options in saltwater that are great options, but if you can add a so-called dither fish to the tank, I'd bet a nickel that it would help motivate them host...maybe to pair too.

[risk1994]

update:

 

I feel like I've unhooked all my stable parameters and now trying to juggle too many balls at once!

 

	ph	ca	alk	nitrate	phosphate	did this after the checks…
4-11	8.3	465	8.9	0	0.012	dose no3 to bring to 3/dose po4
4-13	8.3	470	6.8	0	0.04	dose no3 to bring to 3/dose alk increase
4-14	8.3	465	6.1	0	0.018	dose no3 to bring to 4/dose po4 to increase/dose alk to increase

 

• I checked nitrate 1hr after dosing on 4/13 and got a 1.5, so I know the kit is working  but this tank is eating up nitrate and phosphate, I cant keep levels up.
• Alk is starting to drop like a stone...is this something to be expected?  Its usually very stable for me...

 

 

 

 

[risk1994]

With all this testing I've run out of Hanna alk reagent, had to switch to salifert.

 

My alk is dropping like crazy and Im starting to wonder if Im reading it correctly.  I normally use the Hanna...

 

can someone tell me what this salifert alk test is saying?  I know how I read it but I MUST be reading it wrong.

 

[jservedio]

Your nitrate and phos dropping fast isn't surprising at all as you dose it - most people have to dose way more than they think.

 

However, with your alkalinity one of two things is happening: either you have a testing error (bad kit or just reading it wrong), or you have calcium carbonate precipitating out of the saltwater. Did the "drop" happen the day you switched over to the Salifert kit? If it did, that is your culprit and your alkalinity is likely just fine. You can find the instructions in English online pretty easily.

 

There is no way you are actually using 2dkh per day with the corals you have. If the test is actually correct, you need to check your magnesium and your sandbed - is your sandbed turning into concrete or is your magnesium low?

[Clown79]

If you can dose nitrates that would be the easier and better way.

 

I have tried the increased livestock and feeding and still struggle to keep nitrates.

 

I feed reef roids 2- 3 times a week, fish are fed 2 times a day(frozen and dry), dose phyto 2 times a week with 4 fish in a 25g. I only do 3g waterchanges every 14 days. 

 

I only use floss and 1 tbsp of regular carbon.

 

I'm lucky if my tank can get past 2ppm of nitrates

 

[risk1994]

Amazon just delivered my Hanna reagent and CoVid be damned I went ahead and used it.  10.2!  whew! tested it twice.  (Mg is 1380)

 

I think the way your supposed to read the salifert is to read the total amount remaining...not used.  So my pic above should be read .23 NOT .77  That gets it much closer to the accurate number, at .77 its way way off.  

 

I used the the salifert against some newly mixed salt and it read about 7.5 right where I would expect, so I think its accurate.  Unfortunately since its right around the .5 mark that doesnt tell you anything about how to read it.