Dry Rock Cycling Question

[chrisjj625]

Hi Everyone, 

 

I searched for this answer and I can't seem to find one. I have a new set up cycling with completely dry rock and dry sand. I have added Tim's one and only and am dosing ammonia per the instructions. If I set this tank up from completely "dead" things, is there any way I will see any sort of algae blooms at the completion or will I have to wait until I inadvertently  add something through a frag, livestock, or similar means? Thank you in advance for any assistance you may provide. 

[FISHnChix]

You will start to see diatoms once your turn your light on.. wont see much algae until you start to add livestock and nutrients increase..  look for some frags that have the purple corrline on them or ask a lfs or reefer to scrape you some and add it to the tank once you get it cycled and running.  You will have nice pretty purple rock starting to form around 4-6 months 

 

 

Happy reefing🤙

[chrisjj625]

Thank you for the response, but can you explain where the spores for this type of algae would come from? Are they in the salt? Do they live forever on dry rock and sand? Do they just exist in homes?

[FISHnChix]

Magic!!!!! 

 

Really I dunno never thought about it or looked it up.. maybe @mcarroll would know 

45 minutes ago, chrisjj625 said:

Thank you for the response, but can you explain where the spores for this type of algae would come from? Are they in the salt? Do they live forever on dry rock and sand? Do they just exist in homes?

 

[Clown79]

Every tank is different.

 

Algae is a natural part of the reef. No tank is free from algae throughout its existence and a sterile tank is not healthy.

 

People end up with pods, bristles worms, etc in tanks that were set up with just dry rock and sand.

 

Organisms form, it's a life cycle.

 

My 10g set up with all dry rock and sand(1 tiny piece of liverock- had the worst algae and it wasn't on the liverock. 

 

It's like dino's, they are always present in your tank, they are always present in the ocean. they become a problem when the tank is sterile with favourable conditions for them to thrive and become problematic

[chrisjj625]

@Clown79 but again you said you added a small piece of live rock. This would introduce stuff into the mix. I have introduced nothing “live.” Thus, the question is will I see diatoms before introducing life. I get it sterile is bad and completely agree. I just want to understand, if I’m going to see some diatoms. 

[FISHnChix]

8 minutes ago, chrisjj625 said:

I just want to understand

 

 

 

 

 

 

Someone will chime in..

 

I get what your saying your just cursious how it gets in there if your tank is brand new with all dead rock and sand..  maybe via the bottled bacteria  ??? I dunno...

 

 

OR.........THIS..👇

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, chrisjj625 said:

@Clown79 but again you said you added a small piece of live rock. This would introduce stuff into the mix. I have introduced nothing “live.” Thus, the question is will I see diatoms before introducing life. I get it sterile is bad and completely agree. I just want to understand, if I’m going to see some diatoms. 

Yes, you will.

 

Diatoms love silicate which is in the sand. Some rocks as well.

 

Algae naturally forms like most plant life. They are photosynthetic and lighting can aid in its growth.

 

The nutrients you add to the tank from livestock, food, products used- all help algae growth.

 

The vast majority of hobbyists use the exact same method as you and still get algae. Before livestock and after.

 

It's normal and to be expected.

 

My less than 1lb of liverock didn't cause it. There was no algae on the rock besides coralline. The algae issues started after mnths. 

The algae was all in the sandbed and after months of trying to beat it- I got rid of the sand and replaced it with a different type. No algae issues ever again- the liverock was still in the tank 

 

Liverock is actually known to be better to use because of the beneficial life on it.

 

Algae can be introduced in many ways.

 

No way to avoid it and in reality, it's part of the ecosystem. 

[Clown79]

Here is a link to algae, growth etc.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/54979-what-are-algae.html

 

Basic answer- provide a food source and they will grow on most surfaces under water and on land.

 

Basic food source- light 

[chrisjj625]

@Clown79 thank you for your thoughtful responses. I fully understand algae and it’s processes in a reef aquarium.This isn’t my first tank. I have simply never started a tank in the manner I currently am. I’m still curious as to how I would get any algae to begin in the way I started and am cycling my tank. If there are no spores, how the heck can I get diatoms?

[KMitch]

There are plenty of food sources in the tank already for algae to grow on -- silicates in the sand, or (depending on your water source) in your water. Your salt is not pure either.

 

When I started a tank from dead "everything" like you did, I first noticed life in the tank in the form of a bacterial bloom after adding Dr. Tims. There would be these clumps of white spongey stuff that were maybe a penny in size that grew on patches of the rock for a few days, then went away. Don't have a picture to describe it better.

 

As far as where the algae comes from.... I am a firm believer that those spores come as part of the introduction for everything else. 

[chrisjj625]

30 minutes ago, KMitch said:

There are plenty of food sources in the tank already for algae to grow on -- silicates in the sand, or (depending on your water source) in your water. Your salt is not pure either.

 

When I started a tank from dead "everything" like you did, I first noticed life in the tank in the form of a bacterial bloom after adding Dr. Tims. There would be these clumps of white spongey stuff that were maybe a penny in size that grew on patches of the rock for a few days, then went away. Don't have a picture to describe it better.

 

As far as where the algae comes from.... I am a firm believer that those spores come as part of the introduction for everything else. 

That’s what I mean, if I have no spores yet, I can’t get anything until I add something.

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, chrisjj625 said:

@Clown79 thank you for your thoughtful responses. I fully understand algae and it’s processes in a reef aquarium.This isn’t my first tank. I have simply never started a tank in the manner I currently am. I’m still curious as to how I would get any algae to begin in the way I started and am cycling my tank. If there are no spores, how the heck can I get diatoms?

The exact reasons I listed.

 

It's not about spores.

 

Diatoms are just a natural process due to silicates in the water 

 

Algae forms from Cells and fueled by photosynthesis. It's all provided in the link

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, chrisjj625 said:

That’s what I mean, if I have no spores yet, I can’t get anything until I add something.

Pretty much every tank that has been started as you are(the majority of hobbyists do this)

Gets diatoms.

 

Cells and organisms develop, naturally, just like bacteria. You don't need spores. 

 

You literally could leave your dry rocks, sand and water, add no ammonia and bacteria will form and the tank will cycle on it's own. It just takes longer, that's why ppl add bacteria and ammonia- to shorten the process.

[KMitch]

3 hours ago, chrisjj625 said:

That’s what I mean, if I have no spores yet, I can’t get anything until I add something.

You are responding as though diatom algae - needs to be introduced to the tank to exit, but what @Clown79 and I are trying to explain is that it's just there.

 

I have a pet cat. To my knowledge, there is no mold growing in my cat's mouth. I've never poured mold spores into the cat's water bowl. But if I put water in there and don't clean it every day, mold will grow in the bowl. 

 

I also don't introduce green mold to my bread loaf when I am ready for it to go bad. 😄

 

There are millions of bacteria in that tank that, like Clown said, you couldn't stop from entering the system. They come in your water (even if it's RO water). They come in the salt. And sand. And rock. And air. And the equipment that was manufactured that is now in your tank. OH, and that bottle of bacteria you poured in the tank. 

[Clown79]

4 hours ago, KMitch said:

You are responding as though diatom algae - needs to be introduced to the tank to exit, but what @Clown79 and I are trying to explain is that it's just there.

 

I have a pet cat. To my knowledge, there is no mold growing in my cat's mouth. I've never poured mold spores into the cat's water bowl. But if I put water in there and don't clean it every day, mold will grow in the bowl. 

 

I also don't introduce green mold to my bread loaf when I am ready for it to go bad. 😄

 

There are millions of bacteria in that tank that, like Clown said, you couldn't stop from entering the system. They come in your water (even if it's RO water). They come in the salt. And sand. And rock. And air. And the equipment that was manufactured that is now in your tank. OH, and that bottle of bacteria you poured in the tank. 

I just had to dump half a bucket of SW because there was algae in the water.  I kept it for 3 weeks(I normally don't)

 

Its rodi water plus salt, in a sealed bucket. No light, no life.

[chrisjj625]

Thanks guys for indulging my craziness and need to understand. I guess it’s hard to wrap my head around getting something from ocean in my tank, which isn’t near the ocean. I’ll patiently wait for some magical diatoms to appear. Can‘t wait to see something that makes my sterile box look alive! Maybe I’ll have time to start a build thread during this madness. 

[Clown79]

4 hours ago, chrisjj625 said:

Thanks guys for indulging my craziness and need to understand. I guess it’s hard to wrap my head around getting something from ocean in my tank, which isn’t near the ocean. I’ll patiently wait for some magical diatoms to appear. Can‘t wait to see something that makes my sterile box look alive! Maybe I’ll have time to start a build thread during this madness. 

Algae isn't just in the ocean. It grows everywhere, it grows from various food sources. Like light.

[mcarroll]

On 3/28/2020 at 7:48 AM, chrisjj625 said:

Thanks guys for indulging my craziness and need to understand. I guess it’s hard to wrap my head around getting something from ocean in my tank, which isn’t near the ocean. I’ll patiently wait for some magical diatoms to appear. Can‘t wait to see something that makes my sterile box look alive! Maybe I’ll have time to start a build thread during this madness. 

It really is pretty crazy when you get down to it.

 

Not all algae "are everywhere" but some are.  Much like mold spores, they are literally a part of the dust in the air around you.  Cyanobacteria seem particularly adept at this form of travel.  Sensible capability since they have been around "since the beginning" before there were any animals or anything else on the planet to carry them around.

 

That said, I'd really encourage you to get a piece of live rock in there or to entirely replace your dead rock with live rock.

 

Those multitudes of microbes (algae included) are what make reefs to stable and so resilient.  The lack of them is what makes the typical fish-only tank such a mess and so failure prone.

 

Those multitudes are what makes the reef function.

 

@Clown79 that's pretty weird to be able to grow anything in a closed, unlit bucket of saltwater like that....I'd almost want to chalk it up to the brand of salt or something external like that.  (Something that new salt has in it, but used salt lacks.)  I stored about 100 gallons of USED saltwater from a tank with algae issues...and it was stored in USED 5 gallon buckets for over a year.  The water in the buckets was all clear and odor-free when I opened them up.  🤷‍♂️  I kinda expected it to be nasty in some way or other since it was unfiltered and sitting for so long, but inside the buckets it seemed like not a day had passed.  The water was still usable when the tank went back up.  (Long story; not my tank.) 

[Clown79]

3 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

It really is pretty crazy when you get down to it.

 

Not all algae "are everywhere" but some are.  Much like mold spores, they are literally a part of the dust in the air around you.  Cyanobacteria seem particularly adept at this form of travel.  Sensible capability since they have been around "since the beginning" before there were any animals or anything else on the planet to carry them around.

 

That said, I'd really encourage you to get a piece of live rock in there or to entirely replace your dead rock with live rock.

 

Those multitudes of microbes (algae included) are what make reefs to stable and so resilient.  The lack of them is what makes the typical fish-only tank such a mess and so failure prone.

 

Those multitudes are what makes the reef function.

 

@Clown79 that's pretty weird to be able to grow anything in a closed, unlit bucket of saltwater like that....I'd almost want to chalk it up to the brand of salt or something external like that.  (Something that new salt has in it, but used salt lacks.)  I stored about 100 gallons of USED saltwater from a tank with algae issues...and it was stored in USED 5 gallon buckets for over a year.  The water in the buckets was all clear and odor-free when I opened them up.  🤷‍♂️  I kinda expected it to be nasty in some way or other since it was unfiltered and sitting for so long, but inside the buckets it seemed like not a day had passed.  The water was still usable when the tank went back up.  (Long story; not my tank.) 

It's never happened before, I haven't changed salt brands. 

 

Normal experience is some brown residue on bucket but that's common with most brands as it's due to a binding agent in the salts.

 

This was pretty nasty, I mean I had floating particles in the water. 

I never save salt beyond 1 week. I make salt water and use it normally right away. It's my preference.

 

Some salt brands aren't meant to be stored for long periods and as much as some like IO which can be stored indefinitely- I will never waste my money on it again. Been there done that, cost me more in dosing products, replacibg testers from how much I had to test. fighting unstable parameters constantly and often below normal parameters.

 

I like the salt I use and will stick with it. Very consistent and stable.

[chrisjj625]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It really is pretty crazy when you get down to it.

 

Not all algae "are everywhere" but some are.  Much like mold spores, they are literally a part of the dust in the air around you.  Cyanobacteria seem particularly adept at this form of travel.  Sensible capability since they have been around "since the beginning" before there were any animals or anything else on the planet to carry them around.

 

That said, I'd really encourage you to get a piece of live rock in there or to entirely replace your dead rock with live rock.

 

Those multitudes of microbes (algae included) are what make reefs to stable and so resilient.  The lack of them is what makes the typical fish-only tank such a mess and so failure prone.

 

Those multitudes are what makes the reef function.

 

@Clown79 that's pretty weird to be able to grow anything in a closed, unlit bucket of saltwater like that....I'd almost want to chalk it up to the brand of salt or something external like that.  (Something that new salt has in it, but used salt lacks.)  I stored about 100 gallons of USED saltwater from a tank with algae issues...and it was stored in USED 5 gallon buckets for over a year.  The water in the buckets was all clear and odor-free when I opened them up.  🤷‍♂️  I kinda expected it to be nasty in some way or other since it was unfiltered and sitting for so long, but inside the buckets it seemed like not a day had passed.  The water was still usable when the tank went back up.  (Long story; not my tank.) 

I get it. I want all that stuff. But my last tank was started with partial live rock and it was a PIA with bad hitchhikers. If someone wants to send me a piece of rubble with no pests I’d gladly pay for it, but for now this is what I have to work with. Hoping I can get through this cycle and have everything go well. Plan I’m grabbing some pods at some point to help seed some life. 

[mcarroll]

13 minutes ago, chrisjj625 said:

my last tank was started with partial live rock and it was a PIA with bad hitchhikers

 

I saw your 29 Biocube thread and the worst I see mentioned in the first year or so is a Stomatella snail.  😉  I do see other hitchhikers mentioned, but they're all good too....sponges, etc.  

 

From your pics it certainly looks like it went OK.  Seems like you (like most folks) have actually had pretty good luck with hitchhikers.  

 

If there's more to the story, would you mind being more specific about what your prior experience was with hitchhikers?  

 

I can only guess without that info, but I'd guess that your prior bad experience will be very unlikely to repeat if you went live rock again.  Select a different source if it seems necessary.  That would take probability of a repeat very close to zero.

 

2 hours ago, chrisjj625 said:

Hoping I can get through this cycle and have everything go well.

Have confidence!  😃

 

A tank will cycle a working bio-filter (ie oxidize ammonia to nitrate) in 30-40 days without you doing much more than filling it with water and putting the media in!!

 

Check out the book "Marine Aquarium Handbook Beginner to Breeder" by Martin Moe Jr.   It's cheap used and you can get it on eBook if you want.  It gives exactly the info you need during cycling, including a nice table that lays the whole process out to see at once.  

 

HIGHLY recommended.  

 

(Same for his book "Marine Aqarium Reference...")

 

5 minutes ago, chrisjj625 said:

Plan I’m grabbing some pods at some point to help seed some life. 

It's definitely a start.

 

 

Using sand, rock or even detritus from an established healthy tank would be much more complete.  (Know anyone local in the hobby?  Have a local or regional club?)

[chrisjj625]

7 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

I saw your 29 Biocube thread and the worst I see mentioned in the first year or so is a Stomatella snail.  😉  I do see other hitchhikers mentioned, but they're all good too....sponges, etc.  

 

From your pics it certainly looks like it went OK.  Seems like you (like most folks) have actually had pretty good luck with hitchhikers.  

 

If there's more to the story, would you mind being more specific about what your prior experience was with hitchhikers?  

 

I can only guess without that info, but I'd guess that your prior bad experience will be very unlikely to repeat if you went live rock again.  Select a different source if it seems necessary.  That would take probability of a repeat very close to zero.

 

Have confidence!  😃

 

A tank will cycle a working bio-filter (ie oxidize ammonia to nitrate) in 30-40 days without you doing much more than filling it with water and putting the media in!!

 

Check out the book "Marine Aquarium Handbook Beginner to Breeder" by Martin Moe Jr.   It's cheap used and you can get it on eBook if you want.  It gives exactly the info you need during cycling, including a nice table that lays the whole process out to see at once.  

 

HIGHLY recommended.  

 

(Same for his book "Marine Aqarium Reference...")

 

It's definitely a start.

 

 

Using sand, rock or even detritus from an established healthy tank would be much more complete.  (Know anyone local in the hobby?  Have a local or regional club?)

Aiptasia, byropsis, bubble algae, it was a constant fight with them popping up here and there. I just thought I would try it this way after a lot of research. I will miss the good stuff too, but I’m hoping for an easier time in maintaining it. I could be completely wrong and it could be an epic failure, but I guess we’ll see. 
 

im pretty new to my area (Chicago suburbs). Haven’t really met anyone in the hobby yet as I’ve had no need to buy frags. The LFSs are all closed due to a stay at home order. This, my hands are kind of tied at this point. I saw a few posts where people added different companies bacteria to try and attempt to get some diversity. Wish I would have thought about that previously. I may still go that route if I can come up with a reason to place an order. Was thinking about getting pods sooner rather than later thinking they can probably ride out and ammonia swing that may still be occurring. Any thoughts? 

[Clown79]

Unfortunately, you can get all of that using dry rock too.

[chrisjj625]

3 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Unfortunately, you can get all of that using dry rock too.

Hopefully mitigate some it though. I’d like some more positivity! Come on guys 😜