Struggles of a beginner

[Enthrol]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It has to be based on your tank's actual needs, so there isn't really a hard standard.

 

Scavengers like hermits, nassarius, bumblebee snails only mostly needed to clean up leftover food...which there shouldn't be a lot of if you're doing a good job feeding.  I tend to keep only 1 or 2 per 50 gallons or less.

 

Herbivores like Ceriths, Nerites, Margaritas, Astreas, Trochus and Turbo snails are needed for algae cleanup.  You can go up to 2 Turbos per gallon, but most tanks won't need near that much snail power.  Add them a small amount at a time (1-3 usually) once a month or so, until you get control on the algae growth.  Don't forget to hand-pull any long algae that's around – snails won't touch it.

 

Scarlets are one of the nicest looking hermits, but they're kinda big.  (I generally prefer blue-legged hermits since they seem to stay smaller.)  I agree with trying to trade in the hermits you had already so the Scarlets are your only scavengers.

 

Snails in the store can have a tough time since there usually isn't any algae to eat.  Of course we collectively tend to rate fish stores on how much algae they have in their tanks....the more algae the worse they get rated.   (Who cares that all the herbivores need algae to be healthy, eh?)

Thank you.

 

Most of my problem seems to stem from not knowing how much I can expect them to eat, which is just my inexperience showing. Seem to be over or under estimating pretty wildly.

 

I'll see about off loading the red legged hermits and grab 3 Astreas. 
 

I've noticed that about fish shops too, and try to judge based on pest growth and condition of livestock. Almost all of the invertebrate tanks I see are overloaded and barren of food. Which of course makes your snails get right to work when introduced to your tank, and it seems like a high turnover animal.

[DreC80]

As mentioned the size of the crew depends on your tank's needs, but I highly recommend checking out reefcleaners.org.  They have some pre-built clean up packages based on different size tanks.  This will at least give you an idea.  Plus they have a good algae ID section that you can read over.

 

In regards to turbo snails, I have three in a Red Sea Reefer XL425 and they do a good job keeping things clean.

[Enthrol]

1 hour ago, DreC80 said:

As mentioned the size of the crew depends on your tank's needs, but I highly recommend checking out reefcleaners.org.  They have some pre-built clean up packages based on different size tanks.  This will at least give you an idea.  Plus they have a good algae ID section that you can read over.

 

In regards to turbo snails, I have three in a Red Sea Reefer XL425 and they do a good job keeping things clean.

I'll use reefcleaners as a guide, thank you.

 

I've unfortunately gone through multiple turbos in my tank so far. Couldnt keep them alive. Maybe it was what they were eating, or a lack of food, but everything I find about Turbos and Margaritas is they don't survive long in 78+ degree tanks. I might have also just had bad luck with sourcing them. 

[DreC80]

I think you are spot on in regards to temperature.  From my understanding and research both of those types prefer or at least originate from cooler temps.  My tank runs at about 77.5 so maybe that helps.  

 

The antillean nerite snails on reef cleaners seem pretty long lived for me and can flip themselves over.  Might be worth a shot to order a small pre-built package.  They have them with and without hermits.  Then you can see what does well in your tank.  None of their packages come with turbos so you are good there.

 

[Enthrol]

Traded in the red legs for 3 Astrea snails. Going to do a good cleaning tomorrow to set up this new crew on the right foot. Noticed some some pink coralline growing on the back wall. It's great seeing positive changes in the tank.

 

For the dead rock rubble I'm about to start curing, does it need gas exchange or can I put the lid on the bucket I'll be using? I dont have anywhere I can place it outside but I hear its supposed to smell awful..

[burtbollinger]

aim for @ 10-15 ceriths total.  6-8 nassarius vibex

 

use reefcleaners for the order.

 

don't add anything esle.

 

i read your thread.  you're just going to need to be patient right now...your tank is a newborn.

 

PM me with any questions.

[Enthrol]

53 minutes ago, burtbollinger said:

aim for @ 10-15 ceriths total.  6-8 nassarius vibex

 

use reefcleaners for the order.

 

don't add anything esle.

 

i read your thread.  you're just going to need to be patient right now...your tank is a newborn.

 

PM me with any questions.

Thanks for reading and the response!

 

I get the patience recommendation a lot lol. I am being patient I think, maybe a little overeager to share new findings, optimism, and potential plans for the future.

 

I appreciate the advice on how many of what snails to get. Think I'll keep my scarlet hermits, grown pretty fond of them in the short time I've had them, but was considering stocking the rest of my CuC needs with snails. I've read many frustrated posts about Astrea snails and may end up pulling them if I experience the same, but I like the variety of looks right now. 
 

Hear you on the reefcleaners suggestion, when quarantine stuff settles down and I have some more faith in on-time deliveries I plan to stock from them. 

[mcarroll]

10 hours ago, Enthrol said:

I've unfortunately gone through multiple turbos in my tank so far. Couldnt keep them alive. Maybe it was what they were eating, or a lack of food, but everything I find about Turbos and Margaritas is they don't survive long in 78+ degree tanks. I might have also just had bad luck with sourcing them. 

I think they tend to starve to death before they can suffer (much) from any theoretical effects from high temperatures.  

 

Turbo's have a HUGE appetite that matches their huge size. (Shock!)  

 

When food becomes sparse, this appetite makes then first to starve to death unfortunately.  (I suspect the big ones get picked off by predators in the wild, so getting "too big" might not be a problem they've really had to adapt to in Real Life.)

 

There's also the tendency that folks have of overstocking on cleanup crew.

 

Look at those guides for how many snails and crabs (etc) per gallon.  

 

It's astounding that anyone would advise a newbie to put so many critters in a tank without knowing the first detail about the tank...but it's the norm.  

 

That's why I always suggest an incremental approach when adding cleanup crew.  Never try to stock your whole cleanup crew at once.  That's a guaranteed-to-fail strategy.

 

So cleanup crew mortality has traditionally been high.  

 

I admit that I'm not personally familiar with snail collecting or precisely where in the USA that it happens.  But to me it seems like reaching when we blame the snails for not being able to right themselves or for not being able to tolerate 79ºF water.

 

Roughly speaking, water is in the mid-80ºF's where Turbo snails are known in the Atlantic.  

 

I'm not sure whether there's truth to them collecting cold water Turbos in Baja, CA....water there is truly COLD.  

 

Anything is possible, but it would make no sense to collect there for the tropical aquarium hobby when Turbo's also populate the nearly-tropical Atlantic from N. Carolina down to Brazil.  (There are a couple-hundred species of Turbo and they live all over the world, BTW.). 🤷‍♂️

 

IMO, Margarita's have a different, but related problem: they're often ordered and kept in huge quantities.  What they lack in individual appetite, they make up for in numbers....and end up starving in retail holding tanks which we expect to be "pristine" of algae or we complain about them.  🙄  The remaining snails may starve out quickly when they go into the typical new tank with "perfect parameters" that also has no algae whatsoever...or just a thin (and temporary) film of diatoms.

 

Even tanks that have algae are often so overgrown that snails can't eat any of it....like being thirsty in the ocean: "all that water and not a drop to drink".  Still amounts to starvation unless we go in and hand-prune the algae for them first.  

 

4 hours ago, Enthrol said:

For the dead rock rubble I'm about to start curing, does it need gas exchange or can I put the lid on the bucket I'll be using? I dont have anywhere I can place it outside but I hear its supposed to smell awful..

I think you may be worrying – placing a lot of emphasis on what you've read about others' experiences...which leaves you with negativity bias.  (Almost nobody advertises positive experiences, but folks are very vocal about negative ones.)

 

Worry is a misuse of your imagination!  😉

 

How does your rock look?  How does your rock smell?

 

If your senses tell you that there's enough "meat on the bones" of your rubble to be worth worrying about, then I'd put the rubble into a clean tank of saltwater with a crew of hermit crabs.  They'll have it clean in no time.  You just need a future home for all the extra hermits.  

 

I'd use something like 10-20 or more, depending on the quantity of rock.  You want an overwhelming number for a task like this...nothing too crazy though.  (e.g. 20 is fine. 200 or 2000 is not better!) 

 

Might be able to achieve the same with Nassarius snails, though they aren't equipped with claws.  😉  

 

A mixed crew of hermits and nassarius might be the best, depending on the actual condition of your rock.

 

I'd also have the tank lit, if I were worried.  Grow algae with any ammonia that does manage to get free.  You can add herbivores if the algae is more than the hermits can handle.

 

Don't put the rock in the water until you have access to the crew though.  You want the crew to have the "leg up" on bacterial action.  (Even better if you can have some kind of bio-filter on the curing tank "just in case" the crew can't work fast enough to prevent ammonia....for example if you can only get a few hermits instead of 10-20.)

 

Use a protein skimmer too if you can.

[burtbollinger]

11 hours ago, Enthrol said:

Thanks for reading and the response!

 

I get the patience recommendation a lot lol. I am being patient I think, maybe a little overeager to share new findings, optimism, and potential plans for the future.

 

I appreciate the advice on how many of what snails to get. Think I'll keep my scarlet hermits, grown pretty fond of them in the short time I've had them, but was considering stocking the rest of my CuC needs with snails. I've read many frustrated posts about Astrea snails and may end up pulling them if I experience the same, but I like the variety of looks right now. 
 

Hear you on the reefcleaners suggestion, when quarantine stuff settles down and I have some more faith in on-time deliveries I plan to stock from them. 

delivery would be fine even if delayed...they'd live.  I dont trust CUC from LFS.

[mcarroll]

@burtbollingerthat's too bad about you and your LFS.

 

The LFS is generally the best place for people to get their CUC since you can pick and choose every individual critter if you want.  

 

That's the best way to get all your livestock – hand select everything.  Buying anything sight unseen is usually the most risky way.

 

Buying at the LFS you also get exactly the number of critters you need - no minimums.  Hard to overstate the importance of this in most situations IMO...especially in a nano tank.

[burtbollinger]

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

@burtbollingerthat's too bad about you and your LFS.

 

The LFS is generally the best place for people to get their CUC since you can pick and choose every individual critter if you want.  

 

That's the best way to get all your livestock – hand select everything.  Buying anything sight unseen is usually the most risky way.

 

Buying at the LFS you also get exactly the number of critters you need - no minimums.  Hard to overstate the importance of this in most situations IMO...especially in a nano tank.

For starters...it’s not too bad about me.  

 

You're talking about "the most risky" way....  

The risk that I care about is unseen pests due to CUC in the same system as fish.  

 

Been there and done it.  I've learned very expensive lessons on the topic the hard way. 

 

I don’t trust my tank to CUCs from a LFS tank.  Not a fan of inspecting individual snails in a busy store.  Not a fan of having to QT my CUC for 2 months +.

If you like tossing in LFS CUC you get to "hand select" and then hope for the best, go for it...

Or if your LFS has a dedicated fishless closed system invert tank, then, awesome... carry on. 

 

Reef cleaners CUC I know is clean...fast, cheap, easy and safe.
 

[Enthrol]

16 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

I think you may be worrying – placing a lot of emphasis on what you've read about others' experiences...which leaves you with negativity bias.  (Almost nobody advertises positive experiences, but folks are very vocal about negative ones.)

 

Worry is a misuse of your imagination!  😉

 

How does your rock look?  How does your rock smell?

 

If your senses tell you that there's enough "meat on the bones" of your rubble to be worth worrying about, then I'd put the rubble into a clean tank of saltwater with a crew of hermit crabs.  

I like that thought about worry. I can definitely see where a state of worry is detrimental, especially if you aren't using that worry to improve whatever situation.

 

However in this case I like to think I'm following another life lesson: A smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

 

If there are a significant amount of people claiming that curing dead rock is a stinky process, then I have to assume it does. The degree to which it smells is obviously effected by many factors.

 

Getting back on track, I probably should just jump in and learn. No lives are at stake (meaning fish or cuc) and managing a foul odor isn't that bad of a negative. 
 

Think I'll soak the rubble in freshwater to soften anything on the rock and scrub it real good before adding it to a saltwater bucket to cure and cycle. Being in a darkened container with a lid (partially or fully placed) there shouldnt be too much in the way of algae growth. Really just want to make sure any surviving pests can be identified before adding the rubble to my tank or a quarantine tank.

[Enthrol]

4 hours of cleaning to set the new CuC for success. Left the growth on the back panel because those Astrea are attacking it. New pictures:

[Enthrol]

4-10 friday update:

 

ph: 7.8 (no change)

phos: .22 (.5 increase)

nitrate: 4 (1 increase)

Alk: 7.8 (No change)
Calcium: 390 (20 drop)

Magnesium: 1200 (50 drop)

Salinity: 1.026 (no change)

 

Seeing some algae growth where the snails aren't going. So going to pick up a few more ceriths and another astrea. Got some red algae growing, looks like real short gha but red, the ceriths cleaned up another patch of it earlier in the week but haven't found their way to this new one yet.
 

The hermits have developed quite the personalities. One of them seems to understand when feeding time is and sits on the top rock waiting for me to feed the tank, before rushing down to the small low flow spot I have to grab a scrap of food. The other found itself a little hovel to perch in, likes to rotate his shell so he can hang out of it looking like a pink rock with a scraggly red mustache lol. 
 

Coralline is spreading some more, got a variety of dark green, light green, maroon, and pink spots forming all over.

 

Going to start looking for the first coral to add. Got a lot of research ahead of me lol.

[Enthrol]

4-20 mini update:

 

Ph: 8.1

nitrate: 5

phos: .17

Alk: 7.6

Cal: 400

Mag: 1140

 

No new changes.

Snails still struggling to keep up with the algae growth but they are controlling it better since changing the type in the tank.

 

Think I've narrowed down my first coral to a Duncan, Hammer, or toadstool. Still researching to determine best fit for my tank, how to dip a coral, best source for purchasing them, and building some funds.

[Enthrol]

Been a little while, I bring you new struggles.

 

Since my last post I added another powerhead to the tank for about 2 weeks. Pulled it last week because I started seeing cyano spots and attributed it to the powerheads not working well together and creating dead spots, so went back to my original set up.

 

Cleaned up the cyano, now its grown throughout the tank. Even in direct flow from my powerhead.
 

Have a couple patches of bubble algae I'm not sure how to control. I've so far been unsuccessful when trying to scrape it up without popping it.

 

All my parameters are pretty stable, except Nitrate.

As of tonight:

Nitrate: 0

Phos: 1.4

Alk: 7.3

Calcium: 390

Magnesium: 1170

 

I've gotten a lot more Coralline across the back panel and am starting to fight it on the glass too (sucks to try to scrape coralline off a bowfront btw).

 

One of my Astrea snails died but the rest of my cuc is doing good.

Dropped my lighting period down an hour and will do a full 24-hour lights off tomorrow.

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong to get cyano and to be struggling with Nitrate levels being low.
I'm feeding what my firefish will eat in a minute, which is about a 4th of a cube of frozen mysis and equivalent portion of Rod's frozen mix on alternating days.

I've been forced to lengthen my times between water changes to every other week.

I'm changing the filter pad weekly hoping it'll leech more nitrate (was doing it every 3-4 days) but maybe that's a mistake. 
 

Any ideas?

 

The pictures were taken tonight, last water change was 5 days ago.

[DreC80]

Is your po4 1.4 or .14?  I'm  guessing it's .14 based on previous post.

 

You really want to get your nitrates up higher than your phosphates.  If you can't get the no3 up you may have to start dosing some.  If you start dosing no3 it will drop your po4 as well.  I would try to get your no3 up to 5 or 10 and your po4 to under .1.  Your system is not balanced at the moment.

 

As for the cyano, you can manually remove as much as possible through siphoning.  There are also chemicals you can use but I wouldn't recommend the at this time.

 

I think once you get your system in balance the cyano will go away.

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, Enthrol said:

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong to get cyano

I don't understand the overreaction.

 

There's nothing wrong with cyano.  If anything it's healthy and a sign that the tank is progressing in the right direction.  

 

It's a necessary and harmless phase for the tank, even if cyano is considered "unsightly".

 

7 hours ago, Enthrol said:

Have a couple patches of bubble algae I'm not sure how to control. I've so far been unsuccessful when trying to scrape it up without popping it.

You should be using a pinching action to remove algae by its roots.  Scraping/scrubbing is usually not the right way.  (Sometimes it is.)

 

I thought I had covered this, but there's a lot of threads, so maybe I didn't here.

 

Any green algae (more or less) you treat like this:

 

7 hours ago, Enthrol said:

All my parameters are pretty stable, except Nitrate.

As of tonight:

Nitrate: 0

Phos: 1.4

You'll get there!  Relax!  😁

 

PO4 is the only one that's truly crucial....photosynthesis can't happen properly without it.

 

Nitrogen is technically in (much) greater demand than PO4, but there are lots of sources other than just NO3.

 

7 hours ago, Enthrol said:

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong to get cyano and to be struggling with Nitrate levels being low.

If you stated those two things together as the question, then you have it backwards....the low nitrate levels is most likely the reason for the cyano.  It general has capabilities to use even inorganic nitrogen (ie dissolved N2 gas) that most algae cannot use.  So it thrives in situations like this.  Not a worry, just a sign of how things are.

 

7 hours ago, Enthrol said:

I'm feeding what my firefish will eat in a minute, which is about a 4th of a cube of frozen mysis and equivalent portion of Rod's frozen mix on alternating days.

Don't hew so close to "The Rules" when your eyeballs are telling you different.  You have lots more room to feed on this tank.

 

The only point of those feeding rules you read about is to avoid polluting the tank with too much food – which is to say food that never gets eaten and just breaks down in the tank or in a filter.

 

I would double or triple the number of feedings per day, and if possible, increase the amount per feeding as well.  Firefish are not particularly big eaters though.

 

7 hours ago, Enthrol said:

I've been forced to lengthen my times between water changes to every other week.

Take the force out of the equation....again don't hew too close to the rules.  Water changes are a tool, and nothing more.  If the tank says don't do water changes, then why do you want to do water changes?

 

If you do have a good reason, then consider adding some nutrients (no3 + po4) to the new water change water to avoid depleting levels in the tank.

 

7 hours ago, Enthrol said:

I'm changing the filter pad weekly hoping it'll leech more nitrate (was doing it every 3-4 days) but maybe that's a mistake.

Consider ditching the filter pad altogether.

 

7 hours ago, Enthrol said:

Any ideas?

It isn't going to make/break the looks of your tank, but consider lowering the white lights a little bit if you can.  More blue/less white is better vs algae.

[Enthrol]

@mcarroll

 

Thanks for the reassurance. 
I seem to get caught up in the idea that if other people are posting about "issues" with cyano and more experienced hobbists are posting "cures" that it must be a problem needing to be resolved. I need to keep in mind that my tank is still considered new and that its expected for new tanks to transition through phases. Just eager to have a pristine tank, but nothing good happens quickly.

Thanks again, sometimes I need a "chill out, everything's ok" response.

 

You had posted the Algae removal video for me before and its helped a ton on GHA clean up. I just can't seem to remove the bubble without it bursting. Maybe I've misread something but doesnt the bubble bursting just make it spread?

 

I'll start feeding an additional time a day and see if adding more food per feeding would help. It'll give my hermits some more food so they'll be happier (firefish is picky and wont eat certain bits in the Rod's frozen).

 

Removing the filter pad might be a good decision. Let's see what effect it'll have. 
 

Unfortunately I dont have fully programmable lighting, but I can shorten the duration of full white channel. Just run the moonlights and sunrise channels most of the day, it'll reduce the number of white lights turned on at least and hopefully is similar to what you're suggesting. 
Think I'll wait a week on this though. See how the increased feedings and filter pad removal effect things.

 

As always, I really appreciate you taking the time to help.

[Enthrol]

22 hours ago, DreC80 said:

Is your po4 1.4 or .14?  I'm  guessing it's .14 based on previous post.

 

You really want to get your nitrates up higher than your phosphates.  If you can't get the no3 up you may have to start dosing some.  If you start dosing no3 it will drop your po4 as well.  I would try to get your no3 up to 5 or 10 and your po4 to under .1.  Your system is not balanced at the moment.

 

As for the cyano, you can manually remove as much as possible through siphoning.  There are also chemicals you can use but I wouldn't recommend the at this time.

 

I think once you get your system in balance the cyano will go away.

Oh good catch! Yeah it's .14 phosphate.

 

I was thinking that low nitrate was causing cyano, seems you and mcarroll agree on that.

 

Hopefully with the increased feeding times it'll help increase my nitrate. 
 

Thank you for the clean up suggestions. I agree on chemical cleaners, I've been doing well to avoid them so far. I was syphoning out the cyano during water changes, but as Mcarroll suggested I'm going to start holding off on water changes until I need to do one to remove or add something that a change will help with.

I've read in other posts to use a baster to suck the cyano out. Think I might start doing that more often than just at water changes and have some mixed water ready to replace what I take out with the cyano, which ideally shouldn't be much.
 

Am I missing anything in this clean up approach?

[DreC80]

Sounds solid.  I've had cyano before (think we all have) much worse than that.  Just manually remove.  Eventually your system will balance out.  I think no water changes for a while is a good plan to let the nitrates build up.  Just remember that the phos will also go up with increased feeding.  My nitrates have always run higher than my phosphates (in every tank I've had)...so I've never had to deal with low/zero nitrates.  Isn't this hobby fun?  Biology, chemistry...even some math 🙂

[Enthrol]

On 5/10/2020 at 8:12 PM, DreC80 said:

Sounds solid.  I've had cyano before (think we all have) much worse than that.  Just manually remove.  Eventually your system will balance out.  I think no water changes for a while is a good plan to let the nitrates build up.  Just remember that the phos will also go up with increased feeding.  My nitrates have always run higher than my phosphates (in every tank I've had)...so I've never had to deal with low/zero nitrates.  Isn't this hobby fun?  Biology, chemistry...even some math 🙂

It really is fun!

 

If I'm thinking about this correctly, as the nitrate increases the algae should consume more phosphate to promote growth right? So I should be on the lookout of increased algae growth in addition to the cyano disappearing. 
 

I've been thinking about adding another fish but keep waiting for algae or now cyano to be better controlled. Would adding another tank mate be a mistake? 
I imagine it'd add another source of ammonia to benefit the nitrate.

[DreC80]

Yes, increase in nitrate should result in reduction of phosphate.  

 

Others may disagree, but I think it would be fine to add another fish since your nitrates are zero.  Adding another fish increases your bioload, so you will get the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate conversion.  Your phos will probably increase a little more with having to feed more.

 

I don't know if anyone ever responded to the bubble algae issue.  It should eventually clear up once the tank is balanced and stabilized, but emerald crabs will eat it.  Several places online sell emerald crabs guaranteed to eat bubble algae.