Debate: Will the Coronavirus outbreak affect the reefing community

[A.m.P]

23 hours ago, ef4life said:

Spoiler

 

This this is off topic this is my last post on the subject.

 

pendulam swings - when it gets to the end of its arc it briefly stops, then accelerates back in the opposite direction, until it reaches the end of its arc and slows to a stop again before beginning to accelerate in the opposite direction again. mankind is claiming “accelerated” climate change based on what? Based on Maybe 100 years of actual research and data gathered and recorded from actual times and events. The rest of what they base it on is theory, basically an educated guess, which is basically speculation. If a scientist can’t absolutely give an answer to how or why dinosaurs went extinct you really expect them to have to absolute 100% true answer or proof that the climate is changing because of anything man has done? That acceleration imo is nothing more than the pendulam swing, it’s accelerating until it reaches the end of its arc, slows down again and goes back in the opposite direction.

 

if you believe in evolution - the population of the planet will adapt or die and go extinct making room for something else to take over.

 

if you believe in god and creation - god is not going to let man destroy the earth forever, and as the creator he can fix, change, or do whatever he pleases.

 

either way there is nothing mankind can do to stop “climate change” 

 

 

Our educated guesses can take into account the earth's warping of spacetime to triangulate your exact-location using three pieces of metal and goldfoil in a low-earth orbit broadcasting invisible low-energy radiation based on pings from your handheld device comprised of millions of micro-transistors impregnated into a silicone-wafer operating at a size and scale at which various uncertainty-principles start to allow electrons to literally disappear and re-appear across impermeable, non-conductive barriers dragging their gold-conductive-beds along with them.
Almost all of these principles act on theories, not laws, I think you may not have a full understanding and fundamentals of the scientific method and its' application past some of your talking points, nor of the various sigma of certainty being met by the quality data of a century of research.

We know we can change the acidity of rain, we know we can change the acidity of the oceans, we know how to craft dams, construct and divert rivers, we can even observe the changes in local climate and weather patterns from our deforestation, re-forestation, or urbanization.
We absolutely know we can and have changed the climate of a planet whose seasons and equatorial-pole differential (the difference between -60 F, 100 mph winds, and 130 F -no wind- where unprepared animals bake in their own skin) is only a 23.5 degree tilt. This isn't even the first time we've had a measurable-impact on the climate either, after the "great-dying", caused by European transfer of disease to native-americans, the sudden-drop in population and subsequent re-forestation actually caused a noticeable cooling trend.

We're also not the first organisms to alter the climate, far from it in fact, the entire composition of our atmosphere is owed to cyanobacteria and various archaea/extremeophiles. These early life forms are responsible for a massive-increase in atmospheric oxygen and a radical-shift in global climate, both of which allowed for the development of more complex organisms.

To expound even further we're more-than-capable of accurately inferring temperature, ocean carbonate-levels/ph, and atmospheric levels of gas and double-checking them through dozens of different-methods. It's hardly guesswork, but you're correct in this being off-topic, though it's quite on-topic for my field of study.

I will mention however, writing things off through inferred learned-helplessness or vicarious-laziness is not actually a stance, it's a dismissal of responsibility and a self-justification for inaction and further-disinterest. It's a classic technique straight out of the 80's stanford playbooks on sales and campaign manipulation.

Oh, and evolution doesn't work that way - contemporary understandings of "survival of the fittest" are only topically-relevant. Evolution is more like a blindfolded-geriatric throwing-darts in incremental-directions expressed over the inevitability of change over time, the best design-directions are predominantly-outcompeted by those which take less-risks, and large-jumps and gap/niche-filling don't occur with heavy competitive or environmental-pressure but rather after mass-extinction-events when there is little-to-no competitive-pressure amongst survivors. Etc, etc. Evolution, hilariously enough, can kind of be seen through the lens of the engineer's gambit (50-50-90), in that the reason a 50% chance for an incorrect solution presents itself as a 90% chance to engineers looking to solve problems is that, because of the crushing and relentless nature of time on statistics, even the "correct" solution is usually insufficient to deal with an issue over a long-enough timespan.

Regardless, science is a package deal, you don't get to disagree with bits you don't like because it all uses the same methodology and always provides our best-possible cumulative understanding of the natural world at ANY given point in time.

[Jmevox]

12 hours ago, Amphrites said:

Considering that taxrate isn't the effective-rate, that it also pays for college, daycare, healthcare, retirement, functional mass-transit and infrastructure, and more - that 20% bump in tax-rate would actually be comparable to the 90% of income or so most Americans spend on day-to-day and long-term expenses.
Which would be the point of collective-purchasing power, it's how we have highways, ems, etc. 

My advice, stay out of politics if you're not willing to at least get your feet-wet with any information past parroted talking-points, and try to remain more punctual and less combatively-conceited. 

-Sincerely a Technocrat who spends ALLOT of time reading policy, studies, and all that boring stuff.
OH, and stay on-topic ^^

It's not likely things will get better, people aren't particularly rational simians, nor do we have much of a grasp of exponential-functions - which doesn't serve us well in situations like this, or even in more mundane daily-activities such as driving where casual-narcissism slows the glut of the population down and puts everyone at risk for time-savings which can be totally-eliminated by a single red-light.

Just because I didn't write a long articulate post does not mean I am uneducated.  I read a lot about history and politics all across the world and don't feel the need to constantly tell people in other countries how flawed their system is like Europeans love to do to Americans so much.  Even though so many Europeans love to move to this country and never return. 

 

The high tax rate in Europe may work for these small countries with far smaller Infrastructures and populations at most 1/3 the size of the United States but don't forget the United States is also protecting a lot of these countries.  The Nordic Countries that have a 50% tax rate have no military defense.  If it wasn't for the United States protecting these countries they could be over run in a few hours.  These countries also do not have the diversity the United States has and do not have millions and millions of illegal immigrants constantly trying to come and leach off the system. 

 

The United States has also been the piggy bank for so many European countries which is why they hate Trump so much now, because finally we have a President who is making these countries pay their fair share.  I am done talking about politics, I am here to talk about reef tanks which is something I love and like to research to get away from politics which is constantly crammed down all of our throats all day every day.  I understand, you and a lot of people won't agree with my opinion and that's okay.

 

This Coronavirus is a global issue affecting everyone in the world.  Everyone needs to come together to battle this thing together and leave politics out of it, which is why I had the short "combatively-conceited" post saying stay out of American politics.  Maybe I should have held my tongue.

 

 

[Ratvan]

25 minutes ago, Jmevox said:

The United States has also been the piggy bank for so many European countries which is why they hate Trump so much now, because finally we have a President who is making these countries pay their fair share.  I am done talking about politics, I am here to talk about reef tanks which is something I love and like to research to get away from politics which is constantly crammed down all of our throats all day every day.  I understand, you and a lot of people won't agree with my opinion and that's okay.

😆

[jbb]

7 minutes ago, Ratvan said:

😆

Muricans 🤦‍♂️

[Ratvan]

15 minutes ago, jbb_00 said:

Muricans 🤦‍♂️

Greatest Nation for mis-information

[jbb]

18 minutes ago, Ratvan said:

Greatest Nation for mis-information

But we got that orange dude ... 

[Ratvan]

1 minute ago, jbb_00 said:

But we got that orange dude ... 

Yes Mr Mouldy Wotsit

[SaltyGallon]

It's affecting me that's for sure... Dying to set up my 365 pico in the office but there's no way I'm doing it if there's a risk we'll all be asked to work from home in the next few days until further notice. So really I just need to persuade my better half to let me set it up in the kitchen temporarily... That will go down well 💩

[A.m.P]

2 hours ago, Jmevox said:

Spoiler

 

Just because I didn't write a long articulate post does not mean I am uneducated.  I read a lot about history and politics all across the world and don't feel the need to constantly tell people in other countries how flawed their system is like Europeans love to do to Americans so much.  Even though so many Europeans love to move to this country and never return. 

 

The high tax rate in Europe may work for these small countries with far smaller Infrastructures and populations at most 1/3 the size of the United States but don't forget the United States is also protecting a lot of these countries.  The Nordic Countries that have a 50% tax rate have no military defense.  If it wasn't for the United States protecting these countries they could be over run in a few hours.  These countries also do not have the diversity the United States has and do not have millions and millions of illegal immigrants constantly trying to come and leach off the system. 

 

The United States has also been the piggy bank for so many European countries which is why they hate Trump so much now, because finally we have a President who is making these countries pay their fair share.  I am done talking about politics, I am here to talk about reef tanks which is something I love and like to research to get away from politics which is constantly crammed down all of our throats all day every day.  I understand, you and a lot of people won't agree with my opinion and that's okay.

 

This Coronavirus is a global issue affecting everyone in the world.  Everyone needs to come together to battle this thing together and leave politics out of it, which is why I had the short "combatively-conceited" post saying stay out of American politics.  Maybe I should have held my tongue.

 

 

 

I agree with the final sentiment, and I wasn't insinuating you're uneducated, however most of what you wrote preceding the statements concerning the hobby and the virus show a tendency towards believing what you want to be true, rather than a concerted effort to seek what is true.
Immigrants bring in more income than they cost us, this has been an established fact for decades, prior even to Bush Jr's first term the rate of immigration, illegal or otherwise, has been declining - on top of that the vast majority of illegal-immigrants are european and not targeted by any of the "campaigns to fix the border crisis".

We do play police for most of the developed world, my family is heavily-military and I too see the need for it to, at least somewhat, continue, but you cannot ignore the irony of wanting other nations to pay their fair-share and "get-involved" while simultaneously wanting to expand military budgets and exacerbate a situation which you indirectly-admitted IS a problem.

The "high tax rates" in Europe are simply still progressive rates which reflect how the United States behaved in a time in which we had a solvent-budget, the young-guns had yet to downgrade the nation's credit, and the country wasn't falling-apart from routine swings to "starve-the-beast" over every nonsensical-thing which can be weaponized against "other-siders". When this nation had its' largest middle-class, when the top earners weren't worth more than entire nation-states, when corporations felt a social-responsibility to give-back instead of hoard and lobby relentlessly against competition and the common-citizen, when the "american dream of upward mobility" wasn't more achievable in half-a-dozen other country's including france, we had tax rates near or over 50% (Clinton had 40% with fewer equity loopholes which allow current top-earners to effectively pay 5% or less [anyone still remember romney's tax return sinking his campaign?]).

So I'm going to level and say you may have been misinformed or picked poor-sources of information, I could suggest some books and fantastic reading material, otherwise I'll drop it here and respect your desire to move on.
Have a great day.

[Ratvan]

3 minutes ago, Azur said:

It's affecting me that's for sure... Dying to set up my 365 pico in the office but there's no way I'm doing it if there's a risk we'll all be asked to work from home in the next few days until further notice. So really I just need to persuade my better half to let me set it up in the kitchen temporarily... That will go down well 💩

I have a meeting this afternoon about Office closure, that'll f#ck the RSM further for sure

[SaltyGallon]

12 minutes ago, Ratvan said:

I have a meeting this afternoon about Office closure, that'll f#ck the RSM further for sure

Haha crap... Do you reckon you could set it up at home?

[Ratvan]

2 minutes ago, Azur said:

Haha crap... Do you reckon you could set it up at home?

nope

[Ratvan]

13 minutes ago, Azur said:

Haha crap... Do you reckon you could set it up at home?

Employee's choice to self isolate, statutory sick pay after first 5 days...... I'll be coming in then

[Clown79]

Well i won't have to make the decision to skip out on our largest reef show.

 

It's been postponed till July in light of the virus.

 

We have decided either way to limit leaving our home besides work and groceries to try to prevent any issues.

 

 

[Tamberav]

[Picogoby]

4 hours ago, jbb_00 said:

But we got that orange dude ... 

probably the best sitcom you have every created! I have to admit us Europeans (not the ones that immigrated to the US, killed the native population and then populated the country) love Trump!

[Picogoby]

3 hours ago, Ratvan said:

Employee's choice to self isolate, statutory sick pay after first 5 days...... I'll be coming in then

Will your “choice” be discussed in your performance review?!?!?🤔

[Ratvan]

9 minutes ago, Picogoby said:

Will your “choice” be discussed in your performance review?!?!?🤔

Mine. No. Everyone else's yes 😁

Love being in charge

[RedCrow]

[Ratvan]

5 minutes ago, RedCrow said:

Damn them frenchies

[A.m.P]

 

Real-talk:

The French are the most tragically-underlooked historical- military and intellectual superpower.

[Picogoby]

8 minutes ago, RedCrow said:

We where jealous!   See your orange dementia patience and raise you a lying scum bag Baffoon!

[Ratvan]

4 minutes ago, Amphrites said:

 

Real-talk:

The French are the most tragically-underlooked historical- military and intellectual superpower.

And thats why the English hate em, our favourite enemies

[Picogoby]

6 minutes ago, Ratvan said:

Damn them frenchies

Can’t we just cut their bow fingers off again???

[A.m.P]

1 minute ago, Ratvan said:

And thats why the English hate em, our favourite enemies

Frenemies for life.