New tank low nitrate

[Enthrol]

I'm back with another problem. Thank you to everyone who has helped on my previous posts, you all have been great.

 

My cycle ended about 2 weeks ago and I got a good gha bloom. Took my rocks out, brushed then off in old tank water and did a large water change. Picked up a firefish a few days later after confirming my nitrate was 5ppm and stable. Couple days later got the rest of my test kits and realized my water parameters were low, except for salinity and ph which was in the low range but not too bad.

 

This past weekend grabbed a bucket of red sea coral pro and mixed my own water (great guides on here for that btw). Mixed water's parameters were the "ideal" I wanted so did a  20% water change and brushed off the rocks again.

 

This past week the algae took off, scrapping the glass daily, patches of gha, and what I thought was gha that had caught air bubbles from the water change. After running a powerhead over it the bubbles didn't release.

Through this week I've been monitoring my parameters closely. Alk has dropped .1 ppm daily (6.5 now), phosphate has dropped .025 ppm daily (.02 now), and nitrate has fallen to 0. 

 

Spent the last couple days researching the aiptasia that popped up, the couple pineapple sponges I can see, and finally settled on the idea I might have dinos too.
 

Researching dinos I've read that they strive in tanks with low nutrients. And my tank is pretty messed up biodiversity wise. 
 

So my questions are:

Would purigen or chemipure elite help?

Would adding another fish help?

I've never added pods, but I have a chaeto fuge in the back of my aio that I can try to turn into a pod home if the stories are true, would this help?

I've started adding pellets to the tank that my fish wont eat to try to boost nitrates, is this a waste?

 

The complete livestock of my tank is 1 firefish, 2 red legged hernits, 2 margarita snails, and the chaeto if you count that. I intend to add more fish and cuc, but is there anything that would help benefit my little ecosystem I'm trying to create?

[Clown79]

Gfo and purigen will only further reduce nutrients which will lead to more problems.

 

If its dino's, the last thing you want is a low nutrient system.

 

To confirm dino's you need a microscope, the only other real method is the jar test but that doesn't tell you strain.

 

We need a pic of the algae to be able to help more.

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Enthrol said:

My cycle ended about 2 weeks ago and I got a good gha bloom.

This is great news!

 

2 hours ago, Enthrol said:

Took my rocks out, brushed then off in old tank water

This is bad news...could set your rocks back to Day 0.  Avoid ever doing this again.  👍

 

2 hours ago, Enthrol said:

Picked up a firefish a few days later after confirming my nitrate was 5ppm and stable.

This is good news!

 

2 hours ago, Enthrol said:

This past week the algae took off, scrapping the glass daily, patches of gha

Sounds like you have no cleanup crew.

 

2 hours ago, Enthrol said:

phosphate has dropped .025 ppm daily (.02 now), and nitrate has fallen to 0.

Not good.

 

2 hours ago, Enthrol said:

Researching dinos

It usually takes worse parameters than you reported to generate a dino bloom, but as Clown said, pic's would help a lot at this point.  Hard to be sure from a description in words.

 

Try to take the photos IN DAYLIGHT AND WITH THE FLOW TURNED OFF.

 

2 hours ago, Enthrol said:

the chaeto if you count that.

Ack!!!

 

GET THAT STUFF OUTTA THERE!!!   

 

Could be the major source of your low nutrient problem.   Totally no need for it in your tank.

 

Are you using anything else "extra" for filtration like GFO, activated carbon, etc?

 

I would even stop doing water changes unless you dose phosphates into the new water first.....you're spiking your levels into the ground at this rate.  Must stop!

 

2 hours ago, Enthrol said:

1 firefish, 2 red legged hernits, 2 margarita snails

Firefish should be alright....just keep a lid on the tank and DO NOT ADD MORE FISH until you get a handle on the tank.  👍

 

2 hermits are probably two too many.  They are mostly scavengers....and snail hunters.

 

2 margarita snails is not enough.  Not even close.  I'd add at least 3-4 more and see how it goes.

 

When you work on your hair algae in the future, do it like this:   How to get rid of green hair algae

[mcarroll]

BTW you want phosphates >0.10 ppm if there's ANY possibility of dino's.   ASAP.  If you do this early enough, it's all you'll have to do to stop the bloom cold in its tracks.

 

Pics, pics, pics!  🙂 

[Enthrol]

Thanks for the quick responses Clown and Mcarroll. I'll grab a picture tonight.

 

I have no filtration other than filter pad to catch food and such that escapes the display. I'll pull the chaeto tonight. 
 

Yeah, the snails have been keeping to a single rock off to the side. It's spotless though lol. Definitely will grab some more snails this weekend. I was commenting this morning on the way my hermits seem to just meander around the tank and dont seem to have any real impact.
 

Didn't know that moving rocks out of the tank to brush them was bad. Luckily it didnt effect my beneficial bacteria.

 

Would you recommend dosing phosphate and nitrate until they balance out again?
Since I'm going to be holding off on water changes, I'm still wanting to get all my parameters in line. Everything except Salinity and Ph is a little low. I can buy some supplements for the parameters like alk and calcium, etc.

[Clown79]

24 minutes ago, Enthrol said:

Thanks for the quick responses Clown and Mcarroll. I'll grab a picture tonight.

 

I have no filtration other than filter pad to catch food and such that escapes the display. I'll pull the chaeto tonight. 
 

Yeah, the snails have been keeping to a single rock off to the side. It's spotless though lol. Definitely will grab some more snails this weekend. I was commenting this morning on the way my hermits seem to just meander around the tank and dont seem to have any real impact.
 

Didn't know that moving rocks out of the tank to brush them was bad. Luckily it didnt effect my beneficial bacteria.

 

Would you recommend dosing phosphate and nitrate until they balance out again?
Since I'm going to be holding off on water changes, I'm still wanting to get all my parameters in line. Everything except Salinity and Ph is a little low. I can buy some supplements for the parameters like alk and calcium, etc.

Filter floss isn't the issue. It just collects particles.

 

Chaeto is good if you have nutrient issue, otherwise it can use up available nutrients.

 

Many ppl brush the rocks off when gha grows on them, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

At you testing alk regularly? 

Dosing for these params should be done to replenish what is used by corals.

If you don't have a lot of stony corals, consumption of alk won't be a lot 

[Garf]

37 minutes ago, Enthrol said:

Would you recommend dosing phosphate and nitrate until they balance out again?
Since I'm going to be holding off on water changes, I'm still wanting to get all my parameters in line. Everything except Salinity and Ph is a little low. I can buy some supplements for the parameters like alk and calcium, etc.

Don't dose anything until the tank gets settled. you said this past weekend you started mixing your own saltwater, do you have any idea what the parameters of your tank where before you started your own mix? Were you using boxed water or LFS mix? Are you using RODI water, or still using distilled? You will eventually want to get your tank salinity, alk and ca parameters to match your fresh saltwater mix. Your mix parameters will be your target, but do not worry about this now (you have no corals). The main thing is to identify if those are dinos, and get a handle on the salinity, and nutrients. 

 

You did have that salinity spike in mid February, how stable has the salinity been? Remember, all of these parameters are tied to salinity in some manner, make sure it is stable. 10$ says that your algae isn't dinos, but let us know. Last thing you want to be doing now is chase parameters.  Hoping your tank just needs a bit more time and your maintenance routine to stabilize around your new saltwater mix.  

[Enthrol]

40 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

 

Chaeto is good if you have nutrient issue, otherwise it can use up available nutrients.

 

Many ppl brush the rocks off when gha grows on them, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

At you testing alk regularly? 

Dosing for these params should be done to replenish what is used by corals.

If you don't have a lot of stony corals, consumption of alk won't be a lot 

Mcarroll warned me about putting chaeto in at the end of my cycle in another post, should have listened lol. I'll pull it until I have a nutrient problem it can fix.

 

I've read advice to brush rock in the tank while syphoning the water through a filter sock and depositing the water back into the tank. Think I'll give this a shot to clean up the display without changing the water. It should keep my nitrate in the water right?

 

I test for alk every other day this week. It started at 6.9 and fell to 6.5 a couple days ago. 

[Clown79]

4 minutes ago, Enthrol said:

Mcarroll warned me about putting chaeto in at the end of my cycle in another post, should have listened lol. I'll pull it until I have a nutrient problem it can fix.

 

I've read advice to brush rock in the tank while syphoning the water through a filter sock and depositing the water back into the tank. Think I'll give this a shot to clean up the display without changing the water. It should keep my nitrate in the water right?

 

I test for alk every other day this week. It started at 6.9 and fell to 6.5 a couple days ago. 

With alk, its important to find what your target is, which is what your salt mixes at.

 

Have you tested alk on a newly mixed sw?

6.9 is a little low, that would also be why ph is lower. Is your water mixing at 6.9? Was the tank 6.9 after waterchanges?

 

In a new tank, I would at this point rely on maintenance and cuc for algae. Scrubbing rocks is really a method when gha gets to large take over proportions.

 

If its dino's, you don't want to scrub the rocks. There is a lot more that needs to be done to combat dino's and doing the wrong thing can worsen them significantly.

 

 

[Enthrol]

39 minutes ago, Garf said:

Don't dose anything until the tank gets settled. you said this past weekend you started mixing your own saltwater, do you have any idea what the parameters of your tank where before you started your own mix? Were you using boxed water or LFS mix? Are you using RODI water, or still using distilled? You will eventually want to get your tank salinity, alk and ca parameters to match your fresh saltwater mix. Your mix parameters will be your target, but do not worry about this now (you have no corals). The main thing is to identify if those are dinos, and get a handle on the salinity, and nutrients. 

 

You did have that salinity spike in mid February, how stable has the salinity been? Remember, all of these parameters are tied to salinity in some manner, make sure it is stable. 10$ says that your algae isn't dinos, but let us know. Last thing you want to be doing now is chase parameters.  Hoping your tank just needs a bit more time and your maintenance routine to stabilize around your new saltwater mix.  

I was using lfs mix before making my own. My tank tested at before water

ph: 8.1

Salinity: 1.021

Phosphate: .02

Nitrate: 5

calcium: 360

Magnesium: 1038
Alk: 6.2

 

After water change with self mixed:

ph: 8.3

salinity: 1.025

phosphate: .11

nitrate: 4ish

calcium: 445

magnesium: 1280

Alk: 6.9

 

Testing performed 2 days ago:

ph: 8.4

salinity: 1.024

phosphate: .02

nitrate: 0

Alk: 6.5

no change in calcium or magnesium

After the salinity spike mid- feb salinity had been stable at 1.021 until I did the last water change. I dont have any corals that I know of, but I think I have coralline growing. I'll grab some pics of that tonight too for confirmation, but its a deep purple that seems to be pushing back anything growing in its area. As it spreads there are no gha or suspected dinos growing where it is. 

[Enthrol]

30 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

With alk, its important to find what your target is, which is what your salt mixes at.

 

Have you tested alk on a newly mixed sw?

6.9 is a little low, that would also be why ph is lower. Is your water mixing at 6.9? Was the tank 6.9 after waterchanges?

 

In a new tank, I would at this point rely on maintenance and cuc for algae. Scrubbing rocks is really a method when gha gets to large take over proportions.

 

If its dino's, you don't want to scrub the rocks. There is a lot more that needs to be done to combat dino's and doing the wrong thing can worsen them significantly.

 

 

I didnt check the Self mixed alk before adding it. The bucket says it should be 12.6 or so. I can mix up a gallon to check if that'd help.
 

The 6.9 was after the water change. Ph went to 8.3 and alk to 6.9. 

 

I was under the impression that longer strands of gha wont be consumed by cuc and the rocks should be brushed to keep it at levels that the cuc would touch. Should I should just vacuum the sand and rocks but not brush it or just leave it alone?

[Enthrol]

11 hours ago, mcarroll said:

When you work on your hair algae in the future, do it like this:   How to get rid of green hair algae

Thank you for the video! Really helpful.

 

Also the creator lived within a few miles of me at the time of making that video. Even use the same lfs lol.

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, Enthrol said:

I didnt check the Self mixed alk before adding it. The bucket says it should be 12.6 or so. I can mix up a gallon to check if that'd help.
 

The 6.9 was after the water change. Ph went to 8.3 and alk to 6.9. 

 

I was under the impression that longer strands of gha wont be consumed by cuc and the rocks should be brushed to keep it at levels that the cuc would touch. Should I should just vacuum the sand and rocks but not brush it or just leave it alone?

Part of the waterchange routine should be blowing the rocks with a Turkey baster(not with gha) to prevent detritus buildup, lightly vacuuming sand

 

With longer strands of gha, in a new tank I would pull it off with tweezers and then do your siphoning with waterchanges in case any loose pieces float around.

 

The cuc should take care of the rest if you have the proper cuc. 

 

Testing your newly made salt water for alk is important. You don't know what your salt is mixing at. That's the target number.

 

Your salinity changes are a concern. 1.021 with premade, your mixed sw was 1.025, then 1.024.

 

Why did it change from 1.024 from 1.025? That alters parameters

[Enthrol]

41 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Part of the waterchange routine should be blowing the rocks with a Turkey baster(not with gha) to prevent detritus buildup, lightly vacuuming sand

 

With longer strands of gha, in a new tank I would pull it off with tweezers and then do your siphoning with waterchanges in case any loose pieces float around.

 

The cuc should take care of the rest if you have the proper cuc. 

 

Testing your newly made salt water for alk is important. You don't know what your salt is mixing at. That's the target number.

 

Your salinity changes are a concern. 1.021 with premade, your mixed sw was 1.025, then 1.024.

 

Why did it change from 1.024 from 1.025? That alters parameters

Thank you for the run down on proper maintenance.

 

I honestly dont know why the salinity changed. I havent added any top off water, no ato or chiller. Also havent had any crazy salt creep, just a little.

[Enthrol]

Here are the pictures. I havent cleaned the tank since the water change. 

[Tamberav]

I would just add a CUC. Two hermits and two snails isn't going to be enough.

 

16 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

 

This is bad news...could set your rocks back to Day 0.  Avoid ever doing this again.  👍

 

 

 

What....

[Enthrol]

3 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Why did it change from 1.024 from 1.025? That alters parameters

Sorry after checking my parameter log the salinity didnt change. I mixed the water to 1.025 and it read 1.024 after adding to the tank. The salinity didnt change after it was added. That seems like a really big jump from 1.021 to 1.024 from a 20% water change though in retrospect. Maybe I didnt mix it long enough and the mix was higher? I'll be more diligent in the future.

 

Also realized I gave the wrong parameters in my previous post, sorry.

 

To give the correct numbers:

Mar-2 water change

ph: 8.4

Alk: 6.9
phos: .10

nitrate: 0

salinity: 1.024

 

Mar-4 Started adding 10 pellets of food per day that my fish won't eat

ph: 8.4
alk: 6.4

phos: .05
Nitrate: 0

salinity: 1.024

 

Mar-6 today

ph: 8.4

alk: 6.4

phos: .07

nitrate: 0

salinity: 1.024

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, Enthrol said:

To give the correct numbers:

Mar-2 water change

ph: 8.4

Alk: 6.9
phos: .10

nitrate: 0

salinity: 1.024

 

Mar-4 Started adding 10 pellets of food per day that my fish won't eat

ph: 8.4
alk: 6.4

phos: .05
Nitrate: 0

salinity: 1.024

 

Mar-6 today

ph: 8.4

alk: 6.4

phos: .07

nitrate: 0

salinity: 1.024

IMO those numbers ALL look good.

 

Don't pay any more attention to the nitrate level....the PO4 level is the only thing to worry about AND IT IS JUST FINE.

 

Follow the steps in that video to get a clean baseline for some new snails......then get some more cleanup crew.   No worries.

 

This time stick with herbivorous snails.  No crabs.  (In fact see if they will swap yours for blue-legged hermits...they stay smaller.)  No scavengers.

 

Again, I'd start by adding 4-5 new Margarita snails if that's what you have available.   

 

If you have options, I'd prefer Astreas, Trochus or Turbo snails. 

 

If those options are available, but only in LARGE sizes (likely for the Turbos), then only add one or two instead of 4-5.

 

Wait up to a few weeks to see the effects of the new crew....if you get significant algae grow-back, then clean by hand again like in the video, and add another batch of snails similar in number.

[Enthrol]

So the slime like stuff with trapped bubbles isnt anything to worry about? I'll grab some more snails tomorrow.

 

I did take the chaeto out so I'm curious to see how much of an impact it was having on my stability.

 

I'm assuming I should stop weekly water changes and only do so when nutrients build up more than the algae can deal with. Would it be a bad idea to vacuum the bed and water column through a filter sock to remove anything I cant get by hand?

[mcarroll]

This is a guess, but IMO the chaeto was causing the slime....and if I'm right, then the slime is a bacteria colony.

 

Bacteria will end up carbon limited so don't usually bloom up to visible proportions.

 

But macro aglae exude carbon (sugars) into the water as they photosynthesize, allowing for excessive bacterial growth.

 

Corals do the same thing, but with different sugars.

 

This is a big way that they battle for control of the ecosystem, BTW.   One set of sugars grows a set of bacteria and related critters "freindly" to algae, not friendly to others.  Corals to the same with microbes friendly to them, but not others.

 

Check this out:

Global microbialization of coral reefs

 

[Enthrol]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

This is a guess, but IMO the chaeto was causing the slime....and if I'm right, then the slime is a bacteria colony.

 

Bacteria will end up carbon limited so don't usually bloom up to visible proportions.

 

But macro aglae exude carbon (sugars) into the water as they photosynthesize, allowing for excessive bacterial growth.

 

Corals do the same thing, but with different sugars.

 

This is a big way that they battle for control of the ecosystem, BTW.   One set of sugars grows a set of bacteria and related critters "freindly" to algae, not friendly to others.  Corals to the same with microbes friendly to them, but not others.

 

Check this out:

Global microbialization of coral reefs

 

Interesting idea, seems possible given my tank's history. Haven't read the article just yet but I will when I have time. 
 

Removing chaeto doesnt solve the problem on its own but reduces a source of sugar that the suspected bacteria is eating. CUC controls the algae that will benefit from the chaeto's removal. With any luck this battles the bacteria indirectly, then later introduction of corals uses the nutrients algae was striving on further reducing the available food supply the bacteria has available. 
 

Sounds like it should work if we're looking at a bacterial bloom. This will be fun to watch develop.

[Enthrol]

So overnight the growth on the back of the DT is starting to turn white. No changes were made other than removing chaeto.

[mcarroll]

Interesting.   Def. keep us posted!

[Enthrol]

Added a large mexican turbo and 2 medium red moon turbos (never heard of it before but lfs assured me they'd be good additions, and they've got a great reputation so took the chance). 
 

The mexican has already started mowing down the slime like strands, and 1 of the red moons attacked the gha slowly making progress. The other red moon is just meandering around trying to find his place in the world. 

[Enthrol]

Day 2 after chaeto removal:

 

ph: 8.4

nitrate: 0

phos: .08

Alk: 6.4

 

got concerned with no nitrate increase and tested Ammonia and Nitrite. Both are reading 0. I'm not seeing any algae growth but no further whitening either.
 

Maybe my tank is producing just enough nitrate to keep the algae fed but not enough to promote growth. Hopefully as the snails prune back the algae nitrate readings will increase. On the bright side Phosphate seems to be increasing slowly instead of decreasing dramatically, little wins right?

 

I've considered dropping in more pellets that my fish wont eat in the hopes of raising nitrates, but I'm concerned that doing so will spike my phosphate. Last time I did this was before I pulled the chaeto out and with the rate consumption the tank was doing then, .05 ppm every other day, I saw a .02 increase in phosphate. I assume it'd provide a .08 ppm increase at my next testing, including what ends up in the water from feeding my fish. I cant imagine more than doubling my phosphate at once is a good thing. 

 

In CuC news: The mexican turbo has carved a path of cleanliness around the top of my rocks, one red moon is making slow progress in a circle on the gha. Unfortunately the other red moon was climbing the glass before I left yesterday, got home to find he'd lost his footing and landed on his back. Turned him over and he hadnt moved by morning, so lost a snail.