Dawn's natural nutrient tank system!

[Snow_Phoenix]

49 minutes ago, Subsea said:

I don’t know what nitrates & phosphates are.   I can tell you that those readings will be high by reef aquarium standards.   Test kits from 10 years ago are still unopened.  However, because of the silicate question in my groundwater (from an ancient inland sea which deposited limestone formation here in Texas Hill zcoumtty); I will send aquifer water & display tank water to be tested by regional lab.

 

At the same time that I received sponges, I also received some green macro that look like desert plants & one like pine cones.

The macro looks like mermaid's fans and shaving brush. Your tank is amazing, Subsea. I love the GSP 'tree' the most. Looks so lush and pretty! 🙂 

[vlangel]

4 hours ago, Subsea said:

I don’t know what nitrates & phosphates are.   I can tell you that those readings will be high by reef aquarium standards.   Test kits from 10 years ago are still unopened.  However, because of the silicate question in my groundwater (from an ancient inland sea which deposited limestone formation here in Texas Hill zcoumtty); I will send aquifer water & display tank water to be tested by regional lab.

 

At the same time that I received sponges, I also received some green macro that look like desert plants & one like pine cones.

Thanks for the honest answer, I do not usually test either.  I only tested Friday, probably the 1st time in a year and my phosphates were .5 pom and my nitrates were 40-50 pom.  So yes, my numbers are also high by usual aquarium standards but I do not struggle with nuisance algae so it's ok.  I do have to keep the nitrates from going any higher or my inverts (snails and crabs)might suffer.  I was just curious if your tank was like mine in that area.

[vlangel]

I bought Seachem Flourish and Seachem Excel because I thought those products could help my seagrass and macroalgae grow better.  I am still researching and learning what is necessary to keep a planted tank.  It may be somewhat challenging to meet the needs of the plants/algae but also the needs of the coral.  I did intentionally choose coral that could tolerate high nutrients so hopefully the needs of both will overlap.

 

This tank is very much a departure from the seahorse tank which needed to keep nutrients and DOC low.  So much to learn!

[Subsea]

Flourish Excel™ is a source of bioavailable organic carbon. All plants require a source of carbon. This is typically obtained from CO₂, but, may also be derived from simple organic compounds (such as photosynthetic intermediates). The use of either CO₂injection or Flourish Excel™ does not necessarily negate the use of the other. Because the processes of producing photosynthetic intermediates and building onto them occur simultaneously, one can derive a substantial benefit with the use of Flourish Excel™ either alone or in conjunction with CO₂ . The combination is particularly ideal for situations when continuing to add CO₂ could result in dangerously low pH levels. Flourish Excel™ also has iron reducing properties which promote the ferrous state of iron (Fe⁺²), which is more easily utilized by plants than ferric iron (Fe⁺³).
 

Flourish® is a comprehensive plant supplement for the natural freshwater aquarium. It contains a rich assortment of important micro elements, trace elements and other nutrients. These include calcium, magnesium, iron and other important elements that have been shown to be beneficial to aquatic plants. For macro element (NPK) fertilization, use Flourish® Nitrogen™, Flourish® Phosphorus™ or Flourish® Potassium™ as needed. Flourish® is safe for invertebrates such as shrimp.

 

In reviewing ingredients & product description, you most certainly should use Seachem Flourish in your high nutrient macro lagoon.  Understand this about Seachem Flourish Excel, it contributes organic carbon to the mineral supplements already in Flourish.  I prefer to feed heavy and have fish poop (detritus) kick start microbial diversity from detritus mixed in with carbon & minerals.  If you have few fish with modest cuc, then using

Flourish Excel replaces food in that it provides carbon & trace minerals but no nitrogen, potassium or phosphate.

 

Fish poop is the best 

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, Subsea said:

Fish poop is the best 

I can't tell you how many times I've said that.   (Is that normal?)

[A.m.P]

3 hours ago, vlangel said:

I bought Seachem Flourish and Seachem Excel because I thought those products could help my seagrass and macroalgae grow better.  I am still researching and learning what is necessary to keep a planted tank.  It may be somewhat challenging to meet the needs of the plants/algae but also the needs of the coral.  I did intentionally choose coral that could tolerate high nutrients so hopefully the needs of both will overlap.

 

This tank is very much a departure from the seahorse tank which needed to keep nutrients and DOC low.  So much to learn!

Flourish or something similar is borderline necessary for some macro's and for super-macro-heavy tanks, fish don't poop the right minerals /shrug.

[debbeach13]

So Dawn Looks like with most tanks or should I say things in this hobby. What works for some doesn't always work for others. Another make all changes slowly and keep a watchful eye for responses.

[Subsea]

1 hour ago, A.m.P said:

Flourish or something similar is borderline necessary for some macro's and for super-macro-heavy tanks, fish don't poop the right minerals /shrug.

[Fish don’t poop the right minerals.].   At the least, this is vague and doesn’t pass the smell test.  If nutritious food is feed to fish,  those nutrients are in the detritus, less what the fish used and fish do not have efficient digestive systems.

[Tired]

Right, but plants and animals need different nutrients.

[A.m.P]

4 hours ago, Subsea said:

[Fish don’t poop the right minerals.].   At the least, this is vague and doesn’t pass the smell test.  If nutritious food is feed to fish,  those nutrients are in the detritus, less what the fish used and fish do not have efficient digestive systems.

It was vague because the background information is tedious and lengthy, not to mention somewhat self-evident. Manure is, itself, insufficient for crop growth, the ocean is no different in this regard; save for with exceedingly simple and tolerant plants.

 

Worth noting the efficacy of fish digestive systems varies wildly by species and size.

[mcarroll]

6 hours ago, A.m.P said:

Flourish or something similar is borderline necessary for some macro's and for super-macro-heavy tanks, fish don't poop the right minerals /shrug.

It's almost the opposite of Flourish.

 

Think of fish poop as the ultimate carbon dosing scheme. It has actually been tested as such.  If memory serves, there were some fancy hybrid carbon dosing schemes that were as good, but fish poop was better than any common carbon scheme.  Google Scholar might help with finding that article, but I don't think I actually saved that one.

 

Anyway, fish poop (solids) doesn't carry much in the way of primary nutrients (N+P) apparently.  I think dilution and bacterial breakdown see to that.  So "poop" is what's left, which depends quite a bit on the fishes diet...but it's mostly carbonaceous. Tougher substances I guess.

 

From my recollection, in the experiment they were running a high nutrient fish aquaculture operation of some kind that was high in nitrates and probably other nutrients.  

 

They were testing carbon dosing to reduce nutrient levels.  (Sound familiar to some efforts in our hobby?)  I laughed out loud when they reached the conclusion that, compared to something like a dozen different carbon dosing schemes they tested, taking the filter solids from the system filter (mostly poop) and reinjecting it into the system water was the all-around best solution to reduce dissolved nutrient levels, all factors considered.  Definitely worth a read-through if you can find the article.  (I'll post a link if I find it.  Would be cool if there was a way for me to see all of the links I've ever posted in a list.)

[vlangel]

Thanks everyone for your input.  I really appreciate it.  

 

I have intentionally heavily stocked my display tank and system with fish so that their poo can nourish my seagrass and macros.  (Also fish are my 1st love when it comes to my tank so that plays into it too.).  Since I love my fish I feed them well.  I like to see rounded well filled out bellies so I feed a variety every day with dried flakes, pellets and a variety of frozen.  So hopefully my seagrass and macros are benefiting indirectly from that.

 

I have noticed that since I added the Seachem Flourish and Excel that the faint, light rust color that I was getting on the sandbed after the daylight bulbs came on has stopped.  The sandbed is staying a pristine white which is really awesome.  I was not even sure what was causing the faint rust color but was leaning toward cyano since the refugium definitely had a little cyano in it.  I will be watching carefully to see if that also recedes.  This is all very fascinating!

[A.m.P]

A fun tidbit, a few preliminary studies have soft- confirmed something a bit surprising about algae in the ocean, and in our systems.

 

Contrary to what had been common knowledge for decades, algae (and corals) are Iron/N03 limited in the ocean, not phosphate. Massive N03 and Fe influxes from farmland had more of an indirect impact on corals by causing them to become Phosphate starved and lose-out to certain types of algae which need next-to-nothing, in terms of P04, to flourish.

 

P04 in our systems does all kind of crazy stuff, buffer alkalinity and binds to ions, coats/absorbs into rocks, it's more amazing how many systems can actually keep-up with demand. The advantage of small volumes I suppose.

 

 

Also, I love your stocking in this tank, sure it's heavy, but it works so well and everything is fat and happy.

[vlangel]

1 hour ago, A.m.P said:

A fun tidbit, a few preliminary studies have soft- confirmed something a bit surprising about algae in the ocean, and in our systems.

 

Contrary to what had been common knowledge for decades, algae (and corals) are Iron/N03 limited in the ocean, not phosphate. Massive N03 and Fe influxes from farmland had more of an indirect impact on corals by causing them to become Phosphate starved and lose-out to certain types of algae which need next-to-nothing, in terms of P04, to flourish.

 

P04 in our systems does all kind of crazy stuff, buffer alkalinity and binds to ions, coats/absorbs into rocks, it's more amazing how many systems can actually keep-up with demand. The advantage of small volumes I suppose.

 

 

Also, I love your stocking in this tank, sure it's heavy, but it works so well and everything is fat and happy.

Thanks A.m.P.  I appreciate the input and the encouragement in regards to my choice and amount of livestock.  It helps that the system as a whole has almost twice the water volume that you see in the display.  I knew after the seahorses that I wanted a display with as many fish as possible that I could keep without putting the weaker animals at risk.  That meant choosing fish that did not compete with food or territory with one another. 

 

I thought that should be easy but proved to have a few tricky spots, particularly with Tommy the tomini tang going after Marmalade the orange spot blenny.  I knew they both were herbivores but thought that they would each target different types of algae, which they seem to do.  Having totally different body shapes should have helped too but Tommy is clearly just a greedy bully.  Fortunately Marmalade is not easily intimidated so he's holding his own.

 

The other tricky issue was with Plank the carpenter wrasse going into hiding after the addition of the damsels and tang.  I may still try an acclimation box to re-introduce him to the display.  I do not like that he even hides in the sump and he is the only fish.  I can keep a much better eye on him in the display.

[vlangel]

I caught Plank and he is in a baby net (with macroalgae) that is in the display.  I plan to keep him in the baby net until he quits cowering.  He is eating so that's encouraging.

 

Also my new Coralife HOT5 quad came today and it's nice to have 4 bulbs lit again.  I am trying 3 actinic and 1 10k.

[debbeach13]

We might need to see some "new light" pictures soon. Good news about plank.

[vlangel]

I have good news and bad news.  I released Plank and he did not immediately head for a rock hide out but is instead hanging near the powerhead near the top.  I see him eating and no one is picking on him so I am optimistic.  That is the good news.

 

The bad news is I found Marmalade dead.  I had no idea that he was even sick.  I do know that he and the tang would skirmish but I had not even seen that in a while and thought that they worked things out.  I have noticed him occasionally scratch and the cleaner shrimp would also clean him from time to time so maybe he succumbed to ich.  Whatever happened, it's a bummer because he was a cool fish with a great personality.  I will miss him.

[Tired]

Sorry about your lil guy. 

 

A cleaner shrimp cleaning a fish doesn't mean the fish has parasites. Cleaner shrimp will do that regardless. Scratching is a stronger indicator, but could mean gill parasites or gill damage. You should probably closely watch your other fish for similar symptoms, in case they pick something up. 

[vlangel]

On 12/19/2020 at 1:40 PM, Tired said:

Sorry about your lil guy. 

 

A cleaner shrimp cleaning a fish doesn't mean the fish has parasites. Cleaner shrimp will do that regardless. Scratching is a stronger indicator, but could mean gill parasites or gill damage. You should probably closely watch your other fish for similar symptoms, in case they pick something up. 

Yep, you may be right.  He has scratched ever since I got him and none of my other fish have ever scratched.  I will be keeping an extra close eye on all of them now.

 

Plank, the carpenter wrasse is settling in better and better all the time.  He is eating voraciously and leaves his spot near the powerhead to chase food.  I believe that to be a very good sign.

 

My hubby took me to a LFS to get a salt acclimated molly and they had lots of healthy baby occellaris clowns cheap so I came home with one.  It also is doing well and eating.  It's not interested in the rainbow BTA however.  I am pretty sure that it was captive bred and I have read that some them do not have the strong attraction to nems.  It's ok but I was hoping it would host with the nems.

 

[Pjanssen]

I've heard that BTA's are not good hosts for clowns

[Subsea]

My hubby took me to a LFS to get a salt acclimated molly and they had lots of healthy baby occellaris clowns cheap so I came home with one.  It also is doing well and eating.  It's not interested in the rainbow BTA however.  I am pretty sure that it was captive bred and I have read that some them do not have the strong attraction to nems.  It's ok but I was hoping it would host with the nems.

Did you forget mollie for clown?

 

Do they have different subspecies of mollies"Seemed as if Lyretail mollies did best for me?  

[vlangel]

13 hours ago, Subsea said:

 

Did you forget mollie for clown?

 

Do they have different subspecies of mollies"Seemed as if Lyretail mollies did best for me?  

Actually I came home with both a female molly and the clown! And also a cluster of feather dusters too.

 

Yes, the mollies are lyretails.

 

 

[debbeach13]

Sounds like a nice group of additions.

[vlangel]

So my hubby knew that I was interested in a mandarin and wanted to get me one for Christmas.  Unfortunately Plank, my wrasse died and I got cold feet on the mandarin.  I decided to leave the tank be for a while to make sure that every thing is ok.  I always feel so awful when I lose a fish!

 

Anyway that is now about 2 weeks ago and all the other fish seem fine and well adjusted.  That is starting me thinking again although I still have cold feet about the mandarin, even a CB.  There are other things that I can enjoy that would be much lower risk however. 

 

At KP Aquatics for about the same price I could get 2 rooted halimeda, a fighting conch, a RFA, a yellow ball sponge, a corkscrew nem, and a pistol shrimp!  For a little more I could add either a mated pair of cleaner gobies or 3 pinkish schooling gobies( I forget their name).  My tank would really be full and interesting with those additions and I doubt that it would add any stress to the present inhabitants.  So that is what I am thinking!

[Tired]

I would personally stay away from the corkscrew anemone. They sting pretty heavily and can be dangerous to small fish. The rest of that sounds like a great batch of stuff to get. Maybe grab a ricordea instead of the corkscrew? I suggest getting a ric every time you order from KP, their rics are really nice.