Fishless cycling question

[jcieutat]

There is so much contradictory information on this topic so if possible could someone chime in that has experience what I am going through?  I have a 20 gallon IM Fusion.  In the tank is around 20 lbs of dry rock and 20 lbs of live sand.  I removed the filter sock and media basket and added the Dr. Tim's One and Only 12 days ago and then added the Dr. Tim's Ammonium Chloride Solution as directed on days 3 and 6.  I am using these API Marine test kits which are pretty damn difficult to read for a few of them.  My Ammonia got up to 4.0ppm on day 4, dropped to 1.0ppm on day 5, and then disappeared on day 7.  My Nitrites are either 2.0ppm or 5.0ppm for the last 4 days.  I really can't tell which one on the chart because the colors are so close.  Today I tested Nitrates and they are at 80ppm.  pH has been 7.8 the whole time.  Should I ride with this and be patient or do a water change?  I am going out of town tonight for a week so the tank will just be sitting in a dark room.  Thanks for any help.

[Jmevox]

Let it sit when you’re away. Wait for nitrites to hit 0 and then do a large water change

[Clown79]

As long as nothing is higher than 5ppm, let it process until nitrites are 0, then do a waterchange.

[jcieutat]

Got back home today and the nitrites and ammonia are at zero.  Nitrates are at 40ppm.  Planning on doing a water change tomorrow.  Dr. Tim's site is confusing because according to one place it says the tank is cycled and another says to add more ammonia and then test again.  There is zero algae which I guess is expected since I haven't ran the lights.  I was hoping to add a fish after the water change?

[Clown79]

3 minutes ago, jcieutat said:

Got back home today and the nitrites and ammonia are at zero.  Nitrates are at 40ppm.  Planning on doing a water change tomorrow.  Dr. Tim's site is confusing because according to one place it says the tank is cycled and another says to add more ammonia and then test again.  There is zero algae which I guess is expected since I haven't ran the lights.  I was hoping to add a fish after the water change?

Here are the full instructions

 

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling

[jcieutat]

I went ahead and added more ammonia.  The Dr. Tim's Aquatics printout I have that allows you to record the levels has the tank cycled at day 9 once the ammonia and nitrites are gone.  I thought I got it off their site but maybe it's dated.  Here's to more testing!  Thanks again for the replies.  Like I stated initially, there is so much misinformation it is nice to hear from people who have actually cycled an aquarium this way.

[Steemax]

Yeah the tank is technically cycled turning Ammonia to the end product of nitrate but now you want to make sure it's processing it fast enough within 24hrs. 

[sfboarders]

I watched the Youtube videos a few times before I used Dr. Tim's ammonia. IIRC you have to dose ammonia 3x. You're just about done. 👍

[bruinhd]

Just curious, have people found that cycling by adding ammonia is as stable as just a natural bio cycle? My concern with adding exogenous ammonia, is that yes, you will promote bacterial growth faster, however if you overshoot your bacteria population and there is not enough ammonia for them to feast on downstream, you are going to have a crash in bacteria, which will lead to instability in the tank. I'm only concerned because when I started the hobby the first time around, I failed so many times trying to rush things. This time around, I've been going extremely slowly. No additives but I've debated doing it.

[jcieutat]

Follow up to my post on Friday.  On Saturday I tested the water and there was a hint of ammonia and nitrites.  Sunday the ammonia and nitrites were gone and there was a hint of nitrates.  I did a water change on Sunday and another one on Monday.  Tested the water yesterday and there was a tiny hint of nitrates.  I added a clown, a few crabs, and a small piece of live rock (to help establish some coraline) from a LFS yesterday and all is good as of now.  Tested the water today the only thing there is still a tiny hint of nitrates (5.0ppm).  I will do another water change in a day or so.

 

My chemical filtration right how is a filter sock on one side and a media basket on the other side with filter floss and carbon.  Should I roll with this for now or go ahead and throw a bag of chemi-pure blue in the filter sock?  I plan to add a goby and a few softies within the next month.

[Jmevox]

12 hours ago, jcieutat said:

Follow up to my post on Friday.  On Saturday I tested the water and there was a hint of ammonia and nitrites.  Sunday the ammonia and nitrites were gone and there was a hint of nitrates.  I did a water change on Sunday and another one on Monday.  Tested the water yesterday and there was a tiny hint of nitrates.  I added a clown, a few crabs, and a small piece of live rock (to help establish some coraline) from a LFS yesterday and all is good as of now.  Tested the water today the only thing there is still a tiny hint of nitrates (5.0ppm).  I will do another water change in a day or so.

 

My chemical filtration right how is a filter sock on one side and a media basket on the other side with filter floss and carbon.  Should I roll with this for now or go ahead and throw a bag of chemi-pure blue in the filter sock?  I plan to add a goby and a few softies within the next month.

Sounds like everything is going great. I would leave your filtration alone. 5ppm nitrates is acceptable

[Clown79]

14 hours ago, jcieutat said:

Follow up to my post on Friday.  On Saturday I tested the water and there was a hint of ammonia and nitrites.  Sunday the ammonia and nitrites were gone and there was a hint of nitrates.  I did a water change on Sunday and another one on Monday.  Tested the water yesterday and there was a tiny hint of nitrates.  I added a clown, a few crabs, and a small piece of live rock (to help establish some coraline) from a LFS yesterday and all is good as of now.  Tested the water today the only thing there is still a tiny hint of nitrates (5.0ppm).  I will do another water change in a day or so.

 

My chemical filtration right how is a filter sock on one side and a media basket on the other side with filter floss and carbon.  Should I roll with this for now or go ahead and throw a bag of chemi-pure blue in the filter sock?  I plan to add a goby and a few softies within the next month.

I'd just use carbon and floss.

 

What reason is there to change to chemipure?

[jcieutat]

5 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I'd just use carbon and floss.

 

What reason is there to change to chemipure?

There is no reason.  I have just been reading over and over through forums and sites and if you listen to some of these people they will convince you to purchase every product under the sun.  

[Garf]

 

19 hours ago, jcieutat said:

My chemical filtration right how is a filter sock on one side and a media basket on the other side with filter floss and carbon.  Should I roll with this for now or go ahead and throw a bag of chemi-pure blue in the filter sock?  I plan to add a goby and a few softies within the next month.

I think you answered yourself on this one, but I will add my two bits. Ask yourself what is in a product, and if you know, and your tank needs that, then go ahead and add it. If you do need to run GFO or purigen, there are cheaper and better alternatives.  If not, then save some money and just run floss/pad and carbon.

 

What I do know is my tank does not need ".. two high-grade hybrid ion exchange resins to produce a synergistic formula for the health and well-being of your aquarium inhabitants" 

 

There really is no preventative magic media that will replace regular maintenance on a well established reef environment, especially in a nano. 

[Clown79]

37 minutes ago, jcieutat said:

There is no reason.  I have just been reading over and over through forums and sites and if you listen to some of these people they will convince you to purchase every product under the sun.  

Yup, that is a problem in this hobby. It's been that way since I started. 

Products are heavily marketed in this hobby and often people buy what they don't necessarily even need.

 

Chemipure is carbon and 1 additional resin which does the same thing as purigen.

It doesn't last as long as claimed.

 

Many of us have used it, some still do while some of us saw no difference from a regular good carbon.

 

Less chemical media is definitely the better route, it really should be used on the basis of need.

9 minutes ago, Garf said:

 

I think you answered yourself on this one, but I will add my two bits. Ask yourself what is in a product, and if you know, and your tank needs that, then go ahead and add it. If you do need to run GFO or purigen, there are cheaper and better alternatives.  If not, then save some money and just run floss/pad and carbon.

 

What I do know is my tank does not need ".. two high-grade hybrid ion exchange resins to produce a synergistic formula for the health and well-being of your aquarium inhabitants" 

 

There really is no preventative magic media that will replace regular maintenance on a well established reef environment, especially in a nano. 

Well said and spot on.

[bruinhd]

4 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Yup, that is a problem in this hobby. It's been that way since I started. 

Products are heavily marketed in this hobby and often people buy what they don't necessarily even need.

 

Chemipure is carbon and 1 additional resin which does the same thing as purigen.

It doesn't last as long as claimed.

 

Many of us have used it, some still do while some of us saw no difference from a regular good carbon.

 

Less chemical media is definitely the better route, it really should be used on the basis of need.

Well said and spot on.

Wouldn't you say that Chemipure is essentially carbon plus GFO? I feel like the GFO component is an important addition for some tanks that want to dampen the PO4 swings.

[Clown79]

5 hours ago, bruinhd said:

Wouldn't you say that Chemipure is essentially carbon plus GFO? I feel like the GFO component is an important addition for some tanks that want to dampen the PO4 swings.

Chemipure blue has a purigen media- while elite is gfo.

 

Gfo should only be used on a need to basis, or it strips available phos from the tank, which comes with more negatives than having higher phos.

[mcarroll]

On 3/4/2020 at 12:21 PM, bruinhd said:

Just curious, have people found that cycling by adding ammonia is as stable as just a natural bio cycle? My concern with adding exogenous ammonia, is that yes, you will promote bacterial growth faster, however if you overshoot your bacteria population and there is not enough ammonia for them to feast on downstream, you are going to have a crash in bacteria, which will lead to instability in the tank. I'm only concerned because when I started the hobby the first time around, I failed so many times trying to rush things. This time around, I've been going extremely slowly. No additives but I've debated doing it.

Most folks don't get into the why like that...they're just doing fishless cycling because that's what's in the Utube videos.  Dr Tim's even says fishless isn't necessary, but you don't hear anyone mention that part.  🤷‍♂️ At least it works!!  😉

 

If you're in a hurry, the modern bacterial products do seem to work.....just follow directions carefully. 

 

(Better yet, stop being in a hurry.  Maybe that's not an option tho.)

 

They do not work "better" than the natural method.....they both end at the same point, which is to say with a functional nitrogen cycle.

 

Natural method takes 30-40 days and goes more or less like clockwork in most cases. 

 

No good reason for most folks to do anything differently....most folks have no real reason to be in a hurry.

 

Some folks object to using fish as the first critter.  I think that's really more of a concern for the tank sizes that are common at this site...which are too small for the typical starter fish (ie damselfish)!  LOL  Most nano-folk should be using MUCH smaller first critters.

 

A small fish in a large tank isn't going to generate enough ammonia to be a problem though.  "The solution to pollution is dilution" and whatnot.  But there's nothing wrong with starting with smaller critters in a big tank too.   Just have to use your judgement!  (Something that should be true no matter what startup method you pick!!!)

 

12 hours ago, jcieutat said:

There is no reason.  I have just been reading over and over through forums and sites and if you listen to some of these people they will convince you to purchase every product under the sun.  

Even floss and activated carbon fall in to that category of things though.

 

The "modern" baseline established back in the 1990's (in the US anyway) with The Berlin Method (named for the Berlin Reef Club) was that live rock and a protein skimmer were all it takes (filtration-wise) to run a reef.   (Strong flow and light are the other two main components.)  Other stuff basically wasn't found to be necessary.

 

This was a huge change from the so-called "hi tec" era of reefing that came before.....when folks used things like dead rock, floss and activated carbon, ozone, zeolite media and algae scrubbers, UV filters, GFO (later), etc, etc.....it was craziness. 

 

(We seem to get a little further from the Berlin Method and closer to Hi Tec as time marches on tho...feels like moving in reverse or falling backwards in time some days in the hobby.)

 

Nano reefs got popular before there were really nano-sized protein skimmers for sale, but for whatever reason the nano crowd (re)adopted the floss/carbon thing from the Hi Tec folks instead of DIY'ing protein skimmers like the Berlin Method folks did.

 

That it works pretty well shows you how flexible and resilient coral reefs really are....VERY.  It also shows that the filtration is NOT what makes the reef "go" in spite of how much of our attention the topic takes up.

 

Lots of methods can work, but a protein skimmer still makes a lot more sense in my view. 

 

It uses VERY little power.  There's no waste - no media to replace or run out of.  And a little cleaning in the sink is all it takes to keep one running "forever". 

 

Plus the way it works is perfect for a reef.....mostly aeration with low-grade filtration capabilities for particulate and dissolved materials.

 

On the other hand, throwing floss and activated carbon in the trash every week "forever" is kind of ecologically unsound (think microplastics and HUGE fossil fuel inputs).

 

That's exactly what the hobby looked like in the 70's and 80's, BTW.  Floss and carbon.  It was the disposable era -- a throw-away society.  🥳  Woot.

 

Personally I'm trying to shrink my carbon footprint to be as small as practically possible.  Mainly by eliminating waste...not by "going without".  

 

Using less disposables is one good way to do that.  Thankfully our hobby has developed or adopted a fair amount of technology to allow us to pursue this goal.  Cool!!  👍   (eg Protein skimmers, reluctance motors motors for pumps, LED lighting, etc.)

[Clown79]

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Most folks don't get into the why like that...they're just doing fishless cycling because that's what's in the Utube videos.  Dr Tim's even says fishless isn't necessary, but you don't hear anyone mention that part.  🤷‍♂️ At least it works!!  😉

 

If you're in a hurry, the modern bacterial products do seem to work.....just follow directions carefully. 

 

(Better yet, stop being in a hurry.  Maybe that's not an option tho.)

 

They do not work "better" than the natural method.....they both end at the same point, which is to say with a functional nitrogen cycle.

 

Natural method takes 30-40 days and goes more or less like clockwork in most cases. 

 

No good reason for most folks to do anything differently....most folks have no real reason to be in a hurry.

 

Some folks object to using fish as the first critter.  I think that's really more of a concern for the tank sizes that are common at this site...which are too small for the typical starter fish (ie damselfish)!  LOL  Most nano-folk should be using MUCH smaller first critters.

 

A small fish in a large tank isn't going to generate enough ammonia to be a problem though.  "The solution to pollution is dilution" and whatnot.  But there's nothing wrong with starting with smaller critters in a big tank too.   Just have to use your judgement!  (Something that should be true no matter what startup method you pick!!!)

 

Even floss and activated carbon fall in to that category of things though.

 

The "modern" baseline established back in the 1990's (in the US anyway) with The Berlin Method (named for the Berlin Reef Club) was that live rock and a protein skimmer were all it takes (filtration-wise) to run a reef.   (Strong flow and light are the other two main components.)  Other stuff basically wasn't found to be necessary.

 

This was a huge change from the so-called "hi tec" era of reefing that came before.....when folks used things like dead rock, floss and activated carbon, ozone, zeolite media and algae scrubbers, UV filters, GFO (later), etc, etc.....it was craziness. 

 

(We seem to get a little further from the Berlin Method and closer to Hi Tec as time marches on tho...feels like moving in reverse or falling backwards in time some days in the hobby.)

 

Nano reefs got popular before there were really nano-sized protein skimmers for sale, but for whatever reason the nano crowd (re)adopted the floss/carbon thing from the Hi Tec folks instead of DIY'ing protein skimmers like the Berlin Method folks did.

 

That it works pretty well shows you how flexible and resilient coral reefs really are....VERY.  It also shows that the filtration is NOT what makes the reef "go" in spite of how much of our attention the topic takes up.

 

Lots of methods can work, but a protein skimmer still makes a lot more sense in my view. 

 

It uses VERY little power.  There's no waste - no media to replace or run out of.  And a little cleaning in the sink is all it takes to keep one running "forever". 

 

Plus the way it works is perfect for a reef.....mostly aeration with low-grade filtration capabilities for particulate and dissolved materials.

 

On the other hand, throwing floss and activated carbon in the trash every week "forever" is kind of ecologically unsound (think microplastics and HUGE fossil fuel inputs).

 

That's exactly what the hobby looked like in the 70's and 80's, BTW.  Floss and carbon.  It was the disposable era -- a throw-away society.  🥳  Woot.

 

Personally I'm trying to shrink my carbon footprint to be as small as practically possible.  Mainly by eliminating waste...not by "going without".  

 

Using less disposables is one good way to do that.  Thankfully our hobby has developed or adopted a fair amount of technology to allow us to pursue this goal.  Cool!!  👍   (eg Protein skimmers, reluctance motors motors for pumps, LED lighting, etc.)

That's not all necessarily true.

 

There are many ways to run a reef tank.

 

 

Many of us don't cycle with fish because its cruel.

 

Many of us use floss because it traps particles and change it frequently because it gets dirty and can create issues.

Theres really no negative to using it but there are negatives to not.

 

Carbon is a basic aquarium media for helping with toxins.

 

 

[mcarroll]

11 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Many of us don't cycle with fish because its cruel.

That's what I was referring to.  👍

 

It certainly would be cruel to cycle a nano tank with a fish that's really too big (or borderline) to even live in the tank once the bio-filter is started.

 

But on the flip side, a small fish in a large tank isn't going to be an ammonia problem.

 

In a small tank, there is almost no potential for dilution.

 

In a large tank, there is a lot of potential for dilution.

 

And the main point I was making is that by focusing on the first scenario (too-big fish in the too-small tank) and placing the whole method in the verboten category, we miss the possibility of doing it differently.  E.g. Using smaller critters instead of fish.  

 

Bacteria will always be able to access the ammonia in the water, even at very low concentrations that will be harmless to fish.  That is one of bacterial's natural advantages, apparently due to their size/mass ratio.   So there's no requirement for us to generate a large amount/high concentration of ammonia.   

 

(Doing that in the fishless method is mostly to facilitate levels that will show up on test kits...it's not a necessity.)

 

11 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Many of us use floss because it traps particles and change it frequently because it gets dirty and can create issues.

It's a mechanical filter that works....I get that.   But as far as using floss vs other media....there are non-disposable substitutes if you wanted something "ecologically better".

 

Filter socks are one example....way better than floss -- similarly functional, also very cheap, but very reusable.  An overnight soak in 10% bleach solution will work for cleanup and take no major effort. 

 

Mesh socks are an alternative if cleaning is the chore that's being avoided.  Mesh will be VERY slow to foul up and will quickly rinse clean.  👍

 

Sponges like those from Lifegard or felt pads like the Pure-Flo products from Coralife are great. 

 

Either would be a good option for the typical AIO nano (tho innovative marine has a TINY nano-bag-filter mount) or anyone using a tray-style set up that can't do a filter sock.  (Mimicking the old wet-dry filter towers of the 80's and 90's!)

 

Personally I'd look at those Coralife Pure-Flo felt pads.  I've used them (prolly the 100 micron version) and they are really nice.   They come in large sheets....I think 2'x2' IIRC....and you cut them to size.   Even filtering a 2000 gallon system, one Pur-Flow pack would last me a LONG time....more than a year....maybe a few years.  (It's been a while, so hazy memories.)

 

 

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

That's what I was referring to.  👍

 

It certainly would be cruel to cycle a nano tank with a fish that's really too big (or borderline) to even live in the tank once the bio-filter is started.

 

But on the flip side, a small fish in a large tank isn't going to be an ammonia problem.

 

In a small tank, there is almost no potential for dilution.

 

In a large tank, there is a lot of potential for dilution.

 

And the main point I was making is that by focusing on the first scenario (too-big fish in the too-small tank) and placing the whole method in the verboten category, we miss the possibility of doing it differently.  E.g. Using smaller critters instead of fish.  

 

Bacteria will always be able to access the ammonia in the water, even at very low concentrations that will be harmless to fish.  That is one of bacterial's natural advantages, apparently due to their size/mass ratio.   So there's no requirement for us to generate a large amount/high concentration of ammonia.   

 

(Doing that in the fishless method is mostly to facilitate levels that will show up on test kits...it's not a necessity.)

 

It's a mechanical filter that works....I get that.   But as far as using floss vs other media....there are non-disposable substitutes if you wanted something "ecologically better".

 

Filter socks are one example....way better than floss -- similarly functional, also very cheap, but very reusable.  An overnight soak in 10% bleach solution will work for cleanup and take no major effort. 

 

Mesh socks are an alternative if cleaning is the chore that's being avoided.  Mesh will be VERY slow to foul up and will quickly rinse clean.  👍

 

Sponges like those from Lifegard or felt pads like the Pure-Flo products from Coralife are great. 

 

Either would be a good option for the typical AIO nano (tho innovative marine has a TINY nano-bag-filter mount) or anyone using a tray-style set up that can't do a filter sock.  (Mimicking the old wet-dry filter towers of the 80's and 90's!)

 

Personally I'd look at those Coralife Pure-Flo felt pads.  I've used them (prolly the 100 micron version) and they are really nice.   They come in large sheets....I think 2'x2' IIRC....and you cut them to size.   Even filtering a 2000 gallon system, one Pur-Flow pack would last me a LONG time....more than a year....maybe a few years.  (It's been a while, so hazy memories.)

 

 

What's none disposable?

Socks need replacing, can get costly, and are a pain to clean and sponges are preferably used in fw for biological filtration. In sw, sponges aren't the greatest.

 

In order to have an aquarium it's very difficult to do without us creating some environmental effects 

 

The water we use(consider the amount of water shortages in the world), the media thrown in the garbage when it's used up, the equipment that goes into the garbage, plastic that's used to make the equipment, even livestock collected from the ocean, to the plastic bags livestock is shipped and sold in....

 

I don't take environmental issues lightly but if we are going to consider the footprint of using floss, then what about everything else in the hobby or in our every day lives.

 

[mcarroll]

17 hours ago, Clown79 said:

What's none disposable?

Socks need replacing, can get costly, and are a pain to clean and sponges are preferably used in fw for biological filtration. In sw, sponges aren't the greatest.

 

Not trying to make more of this than it is....just trying to clarify what I said....floss is use-once......bags, sponges and filter felt work similarly, but are very reusable.  😉

 

If we could find a filter material that was re-usable to a degree but ALSO bio-degradable, that would be way cool. 

 

Hemp seems like a good option, but who's really interested?  LOL

 

 

[jcieutat]

Tank is doing great.  I added a small clown, a few hermit crabs, and a small piece of live rock last Sunday and a second one this Sunday.  The crabs are all stick kicking and the clowns are inseparable now.  They are eating great.  I added a piece of xenia attached to a small piece of live rock and placed it in the sand bed away from the rest of my rock.  I know most don't like this stuff but I wanted to add a little color to the tank.  I am dosing the tank daily with Red Sea KH Coralline Gro to see if I can get some color in the tank.  I am going to wait a few weeks before I add another fish (goby, blenny, etc.?) and a few snails.

[mcarroll]

On 3/11/2020 at 9:29 AM, jcieutat said:

I am dosing the tank daily with Red Sea KH Coralline Gro to see if I can get some color in the tank.

Don't dose this without testing your alkalinity.....good to maintain proper levels, but not something to just mess around with.

[jcieutat]

No doubt, I've been testing it daily.  Alkalinity has been sitting at 9 to 10 dKH.  I dosed it daily for a week adding 2 to 3 ml each day.  I am done dosing it now and will wait to see if it actually helps.....