First build - What can be done for $2k?

[Bedowyn]

Hullo.  I am a middle aged, Midwestern guy with a family.  I did freshwater when I was younger, And I think I am finally ready to make the leap to marine! I have been talking about it for FOREVER. 

 

I am wanting to learn, learn, learn.  And before I go visit my LFS, I am trying to read as much as I can, and the more I read, the more I realize how very little I know.  Ideally, I would love to find a good A to Z guide for newbs.  But so far, I have not found it.  So my first question is ... anyone have any suggestions on such a site, document or thread? 

 

But my main question for this thread is ... what can I realistically afford?  I just have to keep my entire budget under $2k.  And my sense is that this will NOT get me as far as I hoped or thought.  For example, if I spend $1200-ish on a 40 gallon AIO, I thought I would be good to go. But now I gather that this presumption is wildly inaccurate?

 

So ... how can I figure out what kind of stuff I can afford?  SO that I can begin to ballpark and set my expectations?

 

Thanks in advance guys for any and all advice.  Sorry if this post is redundant.

 

[nano_izzy]

what aio are you planning on running? you can get the innovative marine nuvo 40 for 500.00 bucks 

[Bedowyn]

Was looking at a Waterbox and Red Sea, just as somewhere to start.  My initial thought was a used 29 Biocube, but all of that went away (Complicated story).  So we are starting over again.

[Elizabeth94]

You can spend as little or as much as you want. It is hard to answer your question because of all the possibilities!

 

Is 40 gallons the approximate size you are looking for? Are you looking for a plug and play system that includes a stand and sump?

 

Honestly, I think AIO’s are prefect for beginners. Innovative Marine makes decent tanks. If you want something a bit more “higher end” there is Waterbox but expect to pay a few hundred more (beautiful quality though). 
 

Or you can even buy a rimmed tank at petco and run a simple set up.

[Bedowyn]

Again, 40 gallons is a random place to start.  When I was doing Freshwater, bigger was better and 30 was what I used to afford.  So that is when I started.

 

I really do like the idea of an AIO setup, including a cabinet.  And sump.  The Red Sea and Waterboxes look really nice.  And this is going into my living room, so nice, clean, polished is an attractive concept.

[Reefkid88]

Realistically it depends on what you want to keep,how advanced you want your equipment,how automated you want your tank to be. So many variables into what you want and there is so many choices. 

 

 Honestly,a 40g breeder from Petco would be a good base. FijiCube has a 40g AIO insert for $130 or you can get a big piece of black acrylic,some weld-on glue and make your own like myself or a lot of people do. If you make your own you can make it big enough to fit a return pump,skimmer,ato pieces,media reactors,places for a heater,room for your dosing lines. 

 

 There are many roads to travel,but its up to you to make your own path and make the tank into what you want to do with it. 

[Doc_]

I think 2k USD is a very doable budget for a very nice display tank you just have to be careful on what you sink your money into and like with anything don't get yourself into a situation of 5% gain for 50% increase in investment over and over again. Also decide if 2k is a hard set limit for all the little things that may be needed or if that is more a budget for the initial big items with the smaller stuff easily added later and whether you plan for that 2k to include any livestock or not.

 

Based on my recent experience where I certainly blew out my initial budget I think it's important to recognise everything you are going to need and account for it and decide what you may add now vs what you may add later when budget allows. Fortunately the budget I set was an out of the air figure that really just prevented me from being too stupid with my spending first time around 🙈 

 

In my case the most expensive elements were the following 

• Tank and Cabinet - I went with a waterbox Classic 30 AIO and am very happy with it aesthetically though I have found for aftermarket changes there is less info available and I'm only just getting started with it so that is something to consider... 
• Light - I went with an AI Prime HD but you can certainly go cheaper or more expensive based on your live stock and based on the dimensions of a lot of 40G tanks you may find you need two lights not one depending what light you pick your livestock choices and the actual tank dimensions.
• RO/DI Unit- Something I didn't expect was to find it literally impossible to source RO/DI water locally where I am so this was a cost I wasn't expecting that boosted up my budget by a few hundred.
• WaveMaker - definately an item you can go expencive or cheap on 
• Auto-Top Off - a perfect example of something that could be added later IF you are happy to keep up with manual top-ups daily.
• Rock and Sand - in my case it cost a couple hundred to source the rock and sand I wanted 

The short answer is, 2k is a fairly easy budget to stay within for one person whilst another could see it as not nearly enough, everyones needs are different and things like what live stock you want to keep , what you're happy to do manually vs what you want to automate and deciding if you want to use a controler , dosing pumps etc are all going to be the deciding factors as to whether that budget is enough for you. 

 

What I found very very helpful was going through peoples Journals here and seeing what they have , maybe assessing why they have it and if I fit into that situation and in the back of my mind also considering if it's something that would be easier to just do from the get go or if it was something I could always add later. 

 

[Seadragon]

If you want a good laugh, go to a few LFS and ask what they recommend with a $2,000 budget.  You might even see them foaming at the mouth and have some saliva drip on you.

 

To some of us, a lot of cool things can be gotten for $2,000.  But, you’ll find out at some point that every one of us has a different idea on what we want and don’t want.  Best thing to do is take it very slow and research every topic that interests you and ask lots of questions.  Find out what you truly want, research it to death (use Google and find various opinions and reviews on anything), and go from there.

[Bedowyn]

So ... good thoughts....

 

On the budget, I know that their will always be ongoing costs.  So, spending some money on another fish here, piece of coral there - and even additional equipment down the road - is not part of the calculation.  However, $2k is what I have to start with, and needs to be a hard limit.  Meaning, before I have spent that last dollar, I would like to have an entire setup, including some minimal coral and fish.  

 

What would I hope to include in that "entire setup"?  Well, keeping in mind that I probably am omitting things that I am not yet aware of....

 

- Nice looking tank.  Matching cabinet.  I really like the trend of having equipment out of site.

- Pumps, heater, filtration supplies.  What is a chiller for?

- Lights.  Many of the AIO sets seem to have matching lights available, for an additional cost.  Not sure if that is the best option or not.

- RO/DI water.  I have not wrapped my brain around producing my own water.  I need to understand the pros and cons of doing my own, vs picking some up somewhere.  Thoughts?

- Rocks, Sand

- ATO - definitely.  In that I want to be able to head out of town for a few days and not have everything go to crap.  I think some of the AIO kits come with a minimal ATO, but that might be something to improve upon.

- Have not thought about a wave maker.  (See... dont yet know what I dont know)

 

With enough left for the critters.

[Seadragon]

22 minutes ago, Bedowyn said:

including some minimal coral and fish.  

 

Some of the best systems are built around what you are trying to support and keep alive in the end.  What types of corals are you hoping to have?  Some require much more powerful lights than the stock lights may provide in many AIO packages.  How many fish and which kind did you eventually want?  Depending on the quantity and kind, you may need a larger tank.  Or if it's just a few nano fish, a smaller tank may suffice.  If you are going to have LPS and SPS corals, then you may also want an automatic doser if you are going to be out of town sometimes.  Also, is anyone going to be there to feed the fish?  If not and you will be out for more than a couple days, you might even want an automatic feeder.  And this is on top of what you already listed, such as the ATO.

 

22 minutes ago, Bedowyn said:

What is a chiller for?

 

"An aquarium chiller is really a small refrigerator which is installed in-line with an external filtration system to cool - or chill - the water as it passes through the system. When coupled with a thermostat, the chiller can prevent the aquarium from rising above a pre-determined temperature."

[Bedowyn]

So a chiller... chills... 😄  

Ok... something else to consider, for the "need it now" vs the "might need it later" list.

I am absolutely clueless on both the coral and the fish.  I think I am still at the beginning point of "it is so much more prettier than fresh water" mode.  Vibrant contrast.  Larger than life.  A couple of clown fish I suppose.  So I guess I do not have a great answer for that yet.

 

[Seadragon]

20 minutes ago, Bedowyn said:

So a chiller... chills... 😄  

Ok... something else to consider, for the "need it now" vs the "might need it later" list.

I am absolutely clueless on both the coral and the fish.  I think I am still at the beginning point of "it is so much more prettier than fresh water" mode.  Vibrant contrast.  Larger than life.  A couple of clown fish I suppose.  So I guess I do not have a great answer for that yet.

 

 

You're at the fun part.  All you need is a notebook, a pen, and some addresses of the popular Local Fish Stores in your area.  And then, schedule a weekend where you have nothing better to do, and take a trip to each of the LFS and look at all of their marine fish and corals and write down any that really strike your fancy and you would just LOVE to have.  And then, at the end of the day, you can even browse online to a website like LiveAquaria.com and look through their stock just to make sure you didn't miss anything.

 

I know what you mean by the reef tank looks so much more vibrant than the freshwater.  My family used to visit my Dream Blue Velvet Shrimp and Bamboo shrimp at the freshwater tank.  Now, they subconsciously ignore it and head straight to nano reef to check out the pulsating corals, Nemo, Blenny, and Shrimpy.

[JurisReefer]

This might be a little contrary to what others have said, but just sharing my experience here - 

 

I think you're doing all of the right things to learn reefing, and I think if you continue at any similar pace you'll have the basis down pretty quickly! That being said, I started with an AIO and I think I "outgrew" it pretty quickly and found myself wanting something with a sump. If space plays into the consideration, I'd definitely go with the AIO. However, if you have the space, I'd look into a sump. IMO it gives you a lot more options to save money and stretch your budget. You'll have to plumb it and buy/build it, but once you clear that hurdle (lots of YouTube videos on doing both things) you'll be able to fit, lets say, a skimmer you got second-hand for way cheaper. With an AIO you'll have to consider the limitations of the "sump" space itself. Also, the more water volume you have, (in theory) the more stable your overall system will be.

 

I think $2k is more than enough. Someone above mentioned an Innovative Marine tank. I've had two and I think they're excellent. The stand is pricey, and in my opinion not worth the price, but you can build, or even have one built for much much less. Feel free to PM me any questions and I'll try to help as best I can!

[Bedowyn]

Right.  So I may be using the "AIO" term incorrectly.  I am thinking of an entire purchase, but it seems that AIO must be referring to an entire system "behind the back wall".  

But my initial thought is to go with one where some of the plumbing is actually down in the included cabinet.  Using WaterBox as an example - simply because that is where I started - I find that they appear to have parallel systems.  Some are named Marine AIO and seem to have all the various parts all integrated with the Sump Wall (correct term?), while others named simply Marine have their "guts" down in the cabinet.  I think I like the latter concept.  An example is linked below...

 

Water Box Example

 

[Doc_]

 

1 hour ago, Bedowyn said:

So ... good thoughts....

 

On the budget, I know that their will always be ongoing costs.  So, spending some money on another fish here, piece of coral there - and even additional equipment down the road - is not part of the calculation.  However, $2k is what I have to start with, and needs to be a hard limit.  Meaning, before I have spent that last dollar, I would like to have an entire setup, including some minimal coral and fish.  

 

What would I hope to include in that "entire setup"?  Well, keeping in mind that I probably am omitting things that I am not yet aware of....

 

- Nice looking tank.  Matching cabinet.  I really like the trend of having equipment out of site.

- Pumps, heater, filtration supplies.  What is a chiller for?

- Lights.  Many of the AIO sets seem to have matching lights available, for an additional cost.  Not sure if that is the best option or not.

- RO/DI water.  I have not wrapped my brain around producing my own water.  I need to understand the pros and cons of doing my own, vs picking some up somewhere.  Thoughts?

- Rocks, Sand

- ATO - definitely.  In that I want to be able to head out of town for a few days and not have everything go to crap.  I think some of the AIO kits come with a minimal ATO, but that might be something to improve upon.

- Have not thought about a wave maker.  (See... dont yet know what I dont know)

 

With enough left for the critters.

 

As far as keeping everything out of sight I would probably look at a tank with a sump if that is an important factor for you, there’s a margin of complexity to consider but also some big benefits. The AIO units are fantastic and allow you to hide a bunch of things in the back section but you will and do end up with several wires running out of the back and you do lose tank real estate.

 

Personally I chose the AIO layout because it suited me , but if I was to make the choice again today I'd have gone with a sump to get back the space the rear compartment takes up. 

 

RO/DI water in my case was a forced decision to need to make my own RO/DI and Saltwater because getting it was in-between impossible to not feasible or astronomical in ongoing cost otherwise.  People who have the luxury of making the decision with both options being viable are probably in a better place to help you weigh up pro's and cons. Though I will say that at a nano size it's at least an option to go either way because you aren't needing to transport huge volumes of water every week or two to do a water change or fill a top up res.  IF I had the option of driving for 15 minutes each way for my water I probably would have avoided the up front cost personally for a little while at least where I'm located though it's simply not an option as for some reason LFS here just don't sell pre-mixed salt water or RO/DI water they sell Natural Sea Water and RO Water only IF they have any option at all. 

[Bedowyn]

Ok... so help me clarify. 

 

• AIO would indicate a series of chambers in the back wall.  Water goes in one end, flows through the various chambers full of heaters, skimmers, filtration.  And then is pumped out the other end.  Like the basic "Bio Cube" setup.
• A Sump setup would be similar, except water falls though a hole and down plumbing to a chamber somewhere, where the filtration takes place.  Water is then pumped back up to the tank.  ATO reservoir, heater, etc, would all be down in the cabinet.
  
  Yes???

[Reefkid88]

 You are correct on both. I love AIO's because its cheaper mainly lol. They do have their own set of benefits,but do add a good amount to the initial build cost. 

 

 For about $100-$150 you could have a KILLER 40g breeder all in one maybe a little more if you don't have any tools or have someone who can cut acrylic for cheap for you. 

[ef4life]

2000 is a good starting budget, but it will go really really fast looking at  rimless “fancy” tank and stand setup. They get pricey but the quality is usually worth it.

 

You will need to budget for things like test kits, ro/di filter, or a bunch of buckets to haul water. Cleaning supplies, Refractometer to check salinity. Etc, some very necessary items that often get overlooked when looking to get your first tank. 

 

Melevsreef - is a reef related business, but he makes a ton of informational articles on his website and YouTube videos. He talks about cost and he figures about $47 a gallon to setup a reef aquarium. I find that’s a decent figure to gauge where you can be realistically. So that gives you a rough budget to get a 40ish gallon tank. 

 

But keep in mind, this is an ongoing thing so there will always need to be a small amount of money budgeted monthly for ongoing maintenance and upgrades etc.

[Bedowyn]

Right.  To take your point, it looks like that medium sized WaterBox system includes a pump and ATO, plus aquarium, plumbing, stand.  And I can get it with some relative lights.  
 

But I still need a pump.  Heater.  Presume I put off an RODI unit, plus any skimmer, chiller.  I still need rocks.  Sand.  And that is before I have put any water in the thing, let alone critters.  

 

AND that also does not include those things I am not thinking of.

[Doc_]

To be clear on the ATO included with the waterbox , it includes a section to hold your RO/DI water, it however does not include any sensors, valves or pumps that actually manages the topoff for you. It's just a dedicated section of the sump. 

 

I believe some of the AIO Red Sea Models have their own tiny (1.5 Liter) Top off Res that remove the need for any sensor or pumps by using a float valve but the Waterboxes do not 

 

The best way I think to look at something like the Waterbox kits and anything like it is that they are kits that include purpose designed base system components. That way you don't have to worry about sourcing the right plumbing , the right size sump for the stand you want or worry about what materials your stand has been made from or if it will hold the weight over time as these have all been considered and done for you from design to release. 

[Clown79]

Welcome to Nano

 

There is a lot to learn and so much available info in this hobby but it can be fun.

 

Reading through beginner threads, journals, and watching some BRS YouTube videos can help a lot.

Each section here under beginner, lighting, and corals has sticky threads which offer a lot of help..

There are also many books available.

 

As for tanks there are a few options.

 

A standard tank with hang on filter, lights, heater, and powerhead/wavemaker is usually the cheapest route.

 

An all in one is another great option. Its plug and play. Very easy. 

I love my IM's, great tanks and the new IM pros come with media basket, upgraded pump, and mesh lid. So the ato, light, and powerhead are extra. Not sure about Waterbox because we don't have them here so I can't comment. Biocubes are another option.

 

Or you can do a sump and tank which is a bit more detailed/plumbing involved.

 

Some of us buy the matching stand, some build their own, and some buy other furniture - really depends on choice and personal budget.

 

 

Additional items you will need:

 

Refractometer - reads salinity

 

Powerhead/wavemaker- this adds additional flow to the tank which is for oxygen, moving food to livestock, and filtration. 

 

Heater- get a good one. Eheim jagger, neotherm are popular.

 

Heater controller - an affordable one is the inkbird. These help control your heater to prevent any issues like over heating.

 

Liverock or dry reef rock - this is the main biological filter for the tank

 

Sand - optional

 

Buckets, additional heater/powerhead for water mixing

 

Test kits - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate for cycling. More later when you get into corals.

 

 

The benefit of making your own water is being able to make it and have it on hand for top up, waterchanges, and emergency. You also control the quality of water you are using.

 

The next best option to using your own rodi, is distilled but it can get tiresome lugging bottles.

 

 

 

 

[Bedowyn]

10 hours ago, Clown79 said:

An all in one is another great option. Its plug and play. Very easy. 

 

Or you can do a sump and tank which is a bit more detailed/plumbing involved.

So after yesterday's conversation, and doing some looking, this is where my focus is.  Nice sump system, for sake of expandability and appearance, but also much more additional costs.  Or an AIO system, so that I can better "ease into" my first setup.  I am going back and forth.  

Related question is smaller, to save money and focus attention.  A more novel presentation.  Or to go larger, for the sake of having more later.  IE - do you buy the small starter home that you can easily afford, but will need to move out of when the kids start to show up?  Or do you buy the biggest, best house you can afford, so you what you need from the beginning.  

10 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Additional items you will need:

 

Refractometer - reads salinity

 

Powerhead/wavemaker- this adds additional flow to the tank which is for oxygen, moving food to livestock, and filtration. 

 

Heater- get a good one. Eheim jagger, neotherm are popular.

 

Heater controller - an affordable one is the inkbird. These help control your heater to prevent any issues like over heating.

 

Liverock or dry reef rock - this is the main biological filter for the tank

 

Sand - optional

 

Buckets, additional heater/powerhead for water mixing

 

Test kits - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate for cycling. More later when you get into corals.

 

So this reminded me of something that might be helpful.  The mentioned Refractometer clicked in my head, because I already have one of those.  I use it in wine making to measure alchohal levels.  But where did I get it???

 

Once upon a time (see old message posts over the last decade) I had a used BioCube.  I never got it off the ground, and it literally fell apart one day.  So that option is no longer on the board.  BUT I did buy a bunch of stuff for it at one point.  Fugee basket, a heater, a pump.  The mentioned Refractometer.  And some of that stuff - still stashed downstairs in the basement - might be helpful.  I will need to take an inventory.

 

And it may help me decide on the kind and size of the tank.  If the heater, pump is good and right sized for this kind of take, or that, than it might steer my thinking.

[mitten_reef]

Important stuff to get the ball rolling:

• Tank - must be aesthetically pleasing to you AND your wife, else you'd never hear the end of it
• Stand - same as above, unless you got mad DIY skills
• heater - a high-quality, high-end heater will let you go without needing to worry about temperature controller for a little while
• Return pump - only if it doesn't come with whatever aquarium package you decided on.  same could be said about sump and plumbing - this is why AIO is a much better starting point, less parts & pieces to purchase
• circulation pump (ie. wavemaker, powerhead) - there are a few good mid-range wavemakers out there. Be sure to consider how much flow AND how much controls you're getting for the price
• lighting - this one, I'd only recommend the higher end light brands, ecotech, AI, Kessil, ATI (if you got T5).  cheap lights grow corals just as fine, but if you got yourself a fancy tank, topping it off with an ugly light just doesn't make sense.

You don't need more than the 4 basic things to keep a tank: tank, heat (in rare cases does one need a chiller), light, and flow.  So focus on the four first, everything else later.  

[Bedowyn]

A compelling argument for an AIO setup.

[jservedio]

25 minutes ago, Bedowyn said:

So after yesterday's conversation, and doing some looking, this is where my focus is.  Nice sump system, for sake of expandability and appearance, but also much more additional costs.  Or an AIO system, so that I can better "ease into" my first setup.  I am going back and forth.  

Related question is smaller, to save money and focus attention.  A more novel presentation.  Or to go larger, for the sake of having more later.  IE - do you buy the small starter home that you can easily afford, but will need to move out of when the kids start to show up?  Or do you buy the biggest, best house you can afford, so you what you need from the beginning.  

So this reminded me of something that might be helpful.  The mentioned Refractometer clicked in my head, because I already have one of those.  I use it in wine making to measure alchohal levels.  But where did I get it???

 

Once upon a time (see old message posts over the last decade) I had a used BioCube.  I never got it off the ground, and it literally fell apart one day.  So that option is no longer on the board.  BUT I did buy a bunch of stuff for it at one point.  Fugee basket, a heater, a pump.  The mentioned Refractometer.  And some of that stuff - still stashed downstairs in the basement - might be helpful.  I will need to take an inventory.

 

And it may help me decide on the kind and size of the tank.  If the heater, pump is good and right sized for this kind of take, or that, than it might steer my thinking.

$2k in the US is an incredibly easy budget to work with - plenty of people make due with 1/4 of that or less. As everyone said - read everything you possibly can, buy once, and buy what you want.

 

Your wine making refractometer isn't going to work since it needs to be calibrated to saltwater within a very tight range, so you will probably need a new one. That won't set you back more than a couple twenties. Unless your refractometer can read salinity between 3% and 4%, and be precise enough to get exactly 3.5%.

 

If you are going with a tank more than 10ish gallons, just buy an RODI unit right off the bat. It's a royal pain in the ass having to drive to Walmart every few days to buy 4 or 5 jugs of distilled water and then filling up your entire recycling bin with gallon jugs.