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mfield16

Inherited an Overstocked, Disgusting Tank!

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mfield16

It's been a while. I had to break down my reef tanks back in 2015 after a move and no real space in the new house. 

 

I've had the itch to get back in though. I, let's say, "inherited" a Fluval EVO from someone who decided they wanted to travel. The tank had a single piece of LR, the back wall was covered in HA, and the rock was riddled with aiptasia. When I arrived to break it down, I found the tank to be WAY overstocked. 2 Wyoming Snowflakes, 2 Firefish Goby's, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 Chocolate Chip Starfish. 

 

I did not re-use the sand or the rock. I picked of live sand, and 15 lbs of LR, 100% water change, and 3 days late, no ammonia or nitrite spikes, just consistently high Nitrate. Water changes every two days. I want to eventually remove the stock media and the HOB that the previous owner had running, but I fear a mini-cycle should I do so too quickly. 

 

It's been 3 days. I am adding chemi-pure elite tonight. 

 

It came with a PS2 skimmer, which I did not set up. 

 

Questions: 

 

1) Should I run the skimmer?

2) I plan to only keep the Wyoming Snowflakes, but I cannot re-home the others until my buddies tank is ready to go. How long can I feasibly keep all 6 in the tank?

3) Would it be possible to keep more than just the clowns? If so, which?

4) Should I add more than just the chemi-pure elite?

 

The goal is to eventually keep corals, if that makes any difference here. 

 

Appreciate the help, and glad to be back. I'm already spending way more than planned. 

SW 2020.01.13.jpg

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Clown79

I would only run the chemipure elite until phos is in a normal range.

Otherwise gfo causes more problems than it's worth.

 

Most likely your high nitrates are coming from the old media. 

 

What exactly is the old media?

 

If it's an old sponge, I'd cut it down each week until you have nothing left and move to floss(replacing twice a week)

This allows you to keep a bit which has turned into biological filtration but slowly remove it as your liverock establishes.

 

If there is old carbon- ditch it. You have chemipure which is carbon. 

 

How long before the fish can be rehomed? 

 

The clowns will be fine in there. Many hobbyists keep clowns in 10g- 20g.

 

 

I would say max 3 fish for that size tank 

 

 

What are nitrate and phos levels at?

The fear mongering of years regarding higher nutrients is slowly going away. Many hobbyists run higher levels and have gorgeous, healthy systems.

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Seadragon
27 minutes ago, mfield16 said:

1) Should I run the skimmer?

2) I plan to only keep the Wyoming Snowflakes, but I cannot re-home the others until my buddies tank is ready to go. How long can I feasibly keep all 6 in the tank?

3) Would it be possible to keep more than just the clowns? If so, which?

4) Should I add more than just the chemi-pure elite?

 

The goal is to eventually keep corals, if that makes any difference here. 

 

I would run a refugium with Chaeto instead of a skimmer -- that will help to keep the nitrates down and resolve other potential future issues such as Dino's + it's a safe haven for copepods.

 

Fluval EVO is 13.5 gallons or which one do you have?  Even LA suggests that the minimum tank size for Wyoming Snowflakes is 20 gallons.  If you cannot rehome some of those fish now, I would just surrender them to a LFS or ask if they can hold them for you (some will do it for a fee) until you have an appropriate place to home them to.  In a small tank like that, I'd consider only keeping a couple small fish and rehome the rest into much larger tanks.  I personally use activated carbon in all of my tanks.  Nothing wrong with keeping the corals as long as you have the proper lighting, salinity, and water parameters to grow them.

 

Edited: After looking over the info again, those clownfish might be OK after all.  I thought they were a different kind that grew much larger.

 

 

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Clown79
5 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

I would run a refugium instead of a skimmer -- that will help to keep the nitrates down and resolve other potential future issues such as Dino's + it's a safe haven for copepods.

 

Fluval EVO is 13.5 gallons or which one do you have?  Even LA suggests that the minimum tank size for Wyoming Snowflakes is 20 gallons.  If you cannot rehome some of those fish now, I would just surrender them to a LFS or ask if they can hold them for you (some will do it for a fee) until you have an appropriate place to home them to.  In a small tank like that, why not just keep the 2 Firefish Goby's and the 1 Royal Gramma, and rehome the rest into much larger tanks.  I personally use activated carbon in all of my tanks.  Nothing wrong with keeping the corals as long as you have the proper lighting, salinity, and water parameters to grow them.

 

 

Many hobbyists keep clowns in 10g. Let alone 13.5

 

If we listened full heartedly to what the recommendations are for everything- you wouldn't be able to keep corals in a nano/pico due to their growth or the vast majority of fish.

 

Each website also has different recommendations, so which 1 is right?

 

Even firefish are listed for 20g.

 

Some fish you definitely should never attempt I. A nano due to its needs and waste production, like tangs who swim miles and miles a day 

 

 

Clowns are not known to swim long distances, their biological make up is to stay in their safe area, their harem with their anemone and clan.

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Seadragon
7 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Many hobbyists keep clowns in 10g. Let alone 13.5

 

If we listened full heartedly to what the recommendations are for everything- you wouldn't be able to keep corals in a nano/pico due to their growth or the vast majority of fish.

 

Each website also has different recommendations, so which 1 is right?

 

Even firefish are listed for 20g.

 

Some fish you definitely should never attempt I. A nano due to its needs and waste production, like tangs who swim miles and miles a day 

 

 

Clowns are not known to swim long distances, their biological make up is to stay in their safe area, their harem with their anemone and clan.

 

That is true, I'm more concerned of the high nitrates, high bio-load, and the lack of a refugium with macroalgae.  Regardless, something needs to change otherwise that is just a deathtrap for any fish.  I was thinking those clownfish were a different type that might grow too large, but after looking over the info again, it should be OK as long as water quality is good and the water parameters are stable.

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mfield16

Evo 13.5

 

I haven't tested phos yet. I have a 5 yr old Hannah checker. Do they expire? Nitrates were a shade between 80 and 160 ppm, so let's say 120 ppm. 

The HOB has a poly insert and what looks to be a carbon insert with white poly cover. Store-bought, I assume. 
 

The 2nd chamber is the stock sponge holder, bag of carbon, and a bio-media. I'll remove the carbon once the chemipure comes in. 

 

I won't be able to re-home for 2-3 weeks. I could take them to my LFS for credit, but my buddy would be very upset. The choc star is going to the LFS for sure. 

 

I had originally thought to keep the clowns pair, and either one firefish or the gramma. 

 

I liked the fuge idea, but read through an Evo thread where they had little luck with a fuge in the 2nd chamber. It's also in the TV room, and the GF would likely comment on the constant light if I did a reverse schedule with it.

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mfield16
4 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

That is true, I'm more concerned of the high nitrates, high bio-load, and the lack of a refugium with macroalgae.  Regardless, something needs to change otherwise that is just a deathtrap for any fish.  I was thinking those clownfish were a different type that might grow too large, but after looking over the info again, it should be OK as long as water quality is good and the water parameters are stable.

Definitely needs to change. More just trying to see if it's possible to manage this load until my friends tank it ready to go. I will take the star to the LFS asap. Too bad they are closed M-W everyw week. 

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Clown79
9 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

That is true, I'm more concerned of the high nitrates, high bio-load, and the lack of a refugium with macroalgae.  Regardless, something needs to change otherwise that is just a deathtrap for any fish.  I was thinking those clownfish were a different type that might grow too large, but after looking over the info again, it should be OK as long as water quality is good and the water parameters are stable.

What are your concerns with high nitrates?

 

Numerous hobbyists have high nitrates and with no ill effects.

 

 

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Seadragon
18 minutes ago, mfield16 said:

I liked the fuge idea, but read through an Evo thread where they had little luck with a fuge in the 2nd chamber. It's also in the TV room, and the GF would likely comment on the constant light if I did a reverse schedule with it.

 

When I first started my two reef tanks, I had the Chaeto macroalgae hidden within a custom in-tank refugium.  Since then, within my Office NR tank, I've gotten rid of the plastic container and used a magnetic clip to attach the chaeto to and placed it on the back of my tank.  You don't have to use chaeto per say, there's many other types of macroalgae, and some even prettier, but the benefits that the chaeto gives to my tank outweigh everything else.  Honestly, I've come to love the emerald green color of the Chaeto and how it continues to grow and flourish and to keep my tank clean and healthy.  It's sort of like trees in real life.  If we burn down all of the trees on Earth and replaced them with concrete parking lots, we'd all die.  There's nothing wrong with a little macroalgae in our tank either.  😉 Hell, I think it's the smart thing to do for many reasons.

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Seadragon
7 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

What are your concerns with high nitrates?

 

Numerous hobbyists have high nitrates and with no ill effects.

 

 

 

The concern is when the nitrates are left unchecked and allowed to reach extremely high levels, Nitrate poisoning can occur.  I have nothing against having some Nitrates, but it's a good idea to keep them in check with macroalgae (or in your case, water changes) so they don't end up killing everything in the tank if they can reach extremely high levels.

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Clown79
22 minutes ago, mfield16 said:

Evo 13.5

 

I haven't tested phos yet. I have a 5 yr old Hannah checker. Do they expire? Nitrates were a shade between 80 and 160 ppm, so let's say 120 ppm. 

The HOB has a poly insert and what looks to be a carbon insert with white poly cover. Store-bought, I assume. 
 

The 2nd chamber is the stock sponge holder, bag of carbon, and a bio-media. I'll remove the carbon once the chemipure comes in. 

 

I won't be able to re-home for 2-3 weeks. I could take them to my LFS for credit, but my buddy would be very upset. The choc star is going to the LFS for sure. 

 

I had originally thought to keep the clowns pair, and either one firefish or the gramma. 

 

I liked the fuge idea, but read through an Evo thread where they had little luck with a fuge in the 2nd chamber. It's also in the TV room, and the GF would likely comment on the constant light if I did a reverse schedule with it.

If it's an aio why is the hob being run?

 

Over media use won't help.

 

A refugium often doesn't work for those who

 

1. Don't have available nutrients for it

2. Not the right light.

 

They aren't always full proof. They can cause other headaches like other algaes growing on them, even dino's.

 

If it's new rock, new sand, that means the bioload and the old media are likely causing nutrient issues.(most likely the old media)

 

Bio media in the filter, depending on brand its to be washed off with waterchange water regularly or else detritus builds on it and some brands require replacing every 6 mnths.

 

If it was me.

 

- Cut sponge down 1/3 each week, rinse the sponge out in waterchange water(water removed from tank) every week.  it will get rid of the nasty buildup but won't kill the biological bacteria that's in it.

 

- replace carbon

 

- clean up the bio media in waterchange water and slowly reduce quantity. This media is not really needed once the liverock is established.

 

- get rid of the hob unless you plan to do a refugium in it. Replace with a small powerhead. There's really no need for it.

 

Make or buy a media basket once you have ditched all the stock filter methods.

 

I would also do a 50-80% waterchange. Small ones will have very little impact on the nutrient level. Back chamber also need regular removal of detritus.

 

I would run your skimmer with that bioload  and nitrate levels.

 

What water are you using.

 

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Seadragon
10 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

A refugium often doesn't work for those who

 

1. Don't have available nutrients for it

2. Not the right light.

 

They aren't always full proof. They can cause other headaches like other algaes growing on them, even dino's.

 

If that tank can support corals and he is dosing to keep the water parameters in the right ranges, there will be no problem growing something like Chaeto macroalgae.  I've never heard of Chaeto causing Dino's, but I have seen videos and personal experience of it eliminating Dino's and preventing it.  As for algaes growing on them?  What do you think Live Rock has on it?  And why are you against biodiversity all of a sudden when that is one of the most important things for tanks in general?

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mfield16

No idea why the original owner was using the HOB. The only reason I still have it was to reduce the chance of a mini-cycle with all new LR and sand. The HOB will be eliminated when I am confident the new LR is ready to go. 2-3 weeks, I'd guess. 

 

I will reduce the sponge in chamber 2 by 1/3 over the next three weeks. Carbon = gone tomorrow. 

 

For now I am using RO/DI and pre-mixed SW from the LFS until I decide if I want to mix my own. For such a small tank, the cost seems negligible, but the potential for not having anything on hand for emergencies is worrisome. 

 

I'll be getting an inTank basket for chamber 1, and will run poly, chemipure, and MAYBE purigen. 

 

I'm not against a fuge in chamber 2 at all. I will do some more research and will likely try it.

 

This is all the exact info I was looking for, so thank you both. Once I get the extra fish out, I should be well on my way. 

 

 

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Clown79
58 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

If that tank can support corals and he is dosing to keep the water parameters in the right ranges, there will be no problem growing something like Chaeto macroalgae.  I've never heard of Chaeto causing Dino's, but I have seen videos and personal experience of it eliminating Dino's and preventing it.  As for algaes growing on them?  What do you think Live Rock has on it?  And why are you against biodiversity all of a sudden when that is one of the most important things for tanks in general?

If do research outside of youtube/forums you will find that chaeto can in fact be an issue with dino's..

 

I am not against biodiversity. Chaeto is a macroalgae. Different than biodiversity of micro organisms....which was the biodiversity I was discussing in other threads.

 

I'm not against it but at the same time your claims of everyone being able to keep it, is false.

 

 

Many of us can't keep it.

 You need to have enough nutrients for it to grow and keep it growing or else it is useless to keep it.

Not only will it not reduce nutrients enough in tiny quantities but it can get smothered in detritus and algae you don't want.

 

Some hobbyists have to get rid of it for a multitude of reasons that I am not going into.

 

Yes, you can keep it in dt, many prefer not too as its messy, gets caught in your equipment.

 

Macroalgae can be good but there are also many that can go asexual leading yo a whole slew of problems.

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Clown79
5 minutes ago, mfield16 said:

No idea why the original owner was using the HOB. The only reason I still have it was to reduce the chance of a mini-cycle with all new LR and sand. The HOB will be eliminated when I am confident the new LR is ready to go. 2-3 weeks, I'd guess. 

 

I will reduce the sponge in chamber 2 by 1/3 over the next three weeks. Carbon = gone tomorrow. 

 

For now I am using RO/DI and pre-mixed SW from the LFS until I decide if I want to mix my own. For such a small tank, the cost seems negligible, but the potential for not having anything on hand for emergencies is worrisome. 

 

I'll be getting an inTank basket for chamber 1, and will run poly, chemipure, and MAYBE purigen. 

 

I'm not against a fuge in chamber 2 at all. I will do some more research and will likely try it.

 

This is all the exact info I was looking for, so thank you both. Once I get the extra fish out, I should be well on my way. 

 

 

Depending on the chemipure you use, you may not want to add purigen. Elite has gfo, blue has a purigen like resin in it. 

 

You could add purigen to the hob for now, it will help reduce nitrates. Just monitor thrn when you get to normal levels.

 I stripped my tank of nitrates when I changed out my purigen. That's what led to my dino outbreak.

 

I always advise to check lfs water for tds, phos and nitrates. It could be where they are coming from.

 

It's best to rule that out as an issue first.

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Seadragon
18 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

If do research outside of youtube/forums you will find that chaeto can in fact be an issue with dino's..

 

I am not against biodiversity. Chaeto is a macroalgae. Different than biodiversity of micro organisms.

 

I'm not against it but at the same time your claims of everyone being able to keep it, is false.

 

 

Many of us can't keep it.

 You need to have enough nutrients for it to grow and keep it growing or else it is useless to keep it.

Not only will it not reduce nutrients enough in tiny quantities but it can get smothered in detritus and algae you don't want.

 

Some hobbyists have to get rid of it for a multitude of reasons that I am not going into.

 

Yes, you can keep it in dt, many prefer not too as its messy, gets caught in your equipment.

 

Macroalgae can be good but there are also many that can go asexual leading yo a whole slew of problems.

 

Just so we're on the same page, the definition of biodiversity is the variety of life in the world or in a particular habitat or ecosystem.

 

Biodiversity refers to every living thing, including plants, bacteria, animals, and humans. Scientists have estimated that there are around 8.7 million species of plants and animals in existence. ... All organisms that can reproduce with each other fall into one species.  Source: National Geographic Society

 

So yes, it includes macroalgae.  Can you give 1 example or link of someone that cannot grow it outside of not having the proper lighting or keeping their system too clean because of a protein skimmer or something similar?  Because I do agree, you can't have insufficient lighting and you can't have a system that is void of nitrates/phosphates due to using a protein skimmer and/or other devices.

 

But outside of that, I've seen only benefits of having macroalgae and refugiums.  You're one of the very few people that seem to be anti-refugium and anti-macroalgae.

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jambon
1 hour ago, Seadragon said:

 

When I first started my two reef tanks, I had the Chaeto macroalgae hidden within a custom in-tank refugium.  Since then, within my Office NR tank, I've gotten rid of the plastic container and used a magnetic clip to attach the chaeto to and placed it on the back of my tank.  You don't have to use chaeto per say, there's many other types of macroalgae, and some even prettier, but the benefits that the chaeto gives to my tank outweigh everything else.  Honestly, I've come to love the emerald green color of the Chaeto and how it continues to grow and flourish and to keep my tank clean and healthy.  It's sort of like trees in real life.  If we burn down all of the trees on Earth and replaced them with concrete parking lots, we'd all die.  There's nothing wrong with a little macroalgae in our tank either.  😉 Hell, I think it's the smart thing to do for many reasons.

I like that  clipped to the back of the tank idea for the chaeto...  🧜‍♀️

 

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Seadragon
3 minutes ago, jambon said:

I like that  clipped to the back of the tank idea for the chaeto...  🧜‍♀️

 

 

I used to have Red Dragon's Breath macroalgae in my tank too, but the Mexican Turbo Snails ate it. 😞

They leave the Chaeto alone though... it either grows too fast or tastes too nasty. 🤮

 

Day71-07.JPG.2f96c124ec16c00d736fc989c40

 

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Clown79
21 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

Just so we're on the same page, the definition of biodiversity is the variety of life in the world or in a particular habitat or ecosystem.

 

Biodiversity refers to every living thing, including plants, bacteria, animals, and humans. Scientists have estimated that there are around 8.7 million species of plants and animals in existence. ... All organisms that can reproduce with each other fall into one species.  Source: National Geographic Society

 

So yes, it includes macroalgae.  Can you give 1 example or link of someone that cannot grow it outside of not having the proper lighting or keeping their system too clean because of a protein skimmer or something similar?  Because I do agree, you can't have insufficient lighting and you can't have a system that is void of nitrates/phosphates due to using a protein skimmer and/or other devices.

 

But outside of that, I've seen only benefits of having macroalgae and refugiums.  You're one of the very few people that seem to be anti-refugium and anti-macroalgae.

I am an example.

 

There are many threads on here and everywhere else on the various issues people have with chaeto.

 

Proven fact that small amounts do very little to nothing.

 

You could remove your clip of chaeto and see no difference in nutrient export.

 

 

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Seadragon
1 minute ago, Clown79 said:

I am an example.

 

There are many threads on here and everywhere else on the various issues people have with chaeto.

 

Proven fact that small amounts do very little to nothing.

 

You could remove your clip of chaeto and see no difference in nutrient export.

 

 

 

You already know I don't do water changes.  Removing a nutrient export (my Pom Pom Xenia has doubled in size as well) could be disastrous.  We'll leave it to that, I'm not about to crash my system. 😄

 

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Clown79
3 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

You already know I don't do water changes.  Removing a nutrient export (my Pom Pom Xenia has doubled in size as well) could be disastrous.  We'll leave it to that, I'm not able to crash my system. 😄

 

Xenia isn't a nutrient export. They use nutrients like all corals do. 

 

Xenia generally grows rapidly to the point of over running a system and smothering other corals(even when you keep them on a single rock, they spread on their own)

 

 

I throw away xenia on a by weekly basis.

 

 

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Seadragon
8 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Xenia isn't a nutrient export. They use nutrients like all corals do. 

 

Xenia generally grows rapidly to the point of over running a system and smothering other corals(even when you keep them on a single rock, they spread on their own)

 

 

I throw away xenia on a by weekly basis.

 

 

 

If you google it, https://www.google.com/search?q=xenia+nutrient+export&oq=xenia, there's 49,400 links talking about Xenia as a Nutrient Export.  Some hobbyists use only Xenia within their refugium since it grows so well.  Like you said, throw tons away on a weekly basis.

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Seadragon

Better yet, I'll give you just 1 of the 49,400 links for your reading pleasure:

 

"Xenia, as many of you are well aware, is a terrific nutrient exporter. To be exact its around 500% more effective then macroalgae at removing nutrients from your aquarium.
Alot of people don't keep xenia strictly because it can quickly reproduce and overgrow a tank and other corals. Especially in a tank with large amounts of DOCs xenia can quickly get out of hand on your rock work and pose issues for your tank. You can prune it just like you would a macroalgae, however this can get troublesome as every little head which sneaks away via the water column and finds a nice little nook will sprout itself into a new tree.
From personal Exp and conversations with friends, Ive found a nifty way to grow xenia safely in your aquarium without worrying about pruning or dealing with real estate issues in and on your rock work while all the time enjoying the nutrient exporting ability of this nifty coral.
My father, (at one point and time), actually plumbed a main reef display into a secondary 30 gallon reef which was completely a xenia forest. The nutrient exporting capabilites was outstanding. The main issue being the large amount of food which was having to be fed to supply enough food to maintain both the coral in the main display + the entire secondary tank of xenia. This became an issue which had more risks then rewards and my dad quickly went back to a fuge.
Rather then growing your Xenia on your rock, why not grow it on your glass? Its out of the way of other corals, cannot block light, cannot take up real estate, and still serves the purpose to export excess nutrients from the water column. Its not difficult in any way, all it requires is a little scrubbing with a toothbrush every other day. Xenia usually attaches fairly quickly to whatever object its placed next to, if you have a frag available and can suspend it horizontally against the glass safely without it falling for an extended period, then eventually it will attach itself to the glass and voila, you are good to go. Simply seek out any little xenia sprouts and scrub them off the rock with a clean toothbrush every now and again when you see them sprouting up and you are good to go.
If you already have Xenia in your tank and simply wish to know how to get it to grow on your glass so you can completely remove it from your rock, then this is how. I personally left at least 2 healthy trees on my rocks at all times without any pruning being done during the glass growing process. The other trees I cut, pruned, and scrubbed with a toothbrush until only a small amount of the trees remained on the rock. Eventually a spore you scrub off will attach to the glass and begin to grow. When you think it is of adequate size and definitely going to survive, then you can simply completely remove the rest of the trees on your rock. Congratulations, you now have a small forest growing on your glass which is pretty and serves a purpose.
Just an idea to throw out there for everyone." Source: https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/index.php?threads/using-xenia-as-nutrient-exporter-tips-hints-on-growing-and-placement.383738/

 

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mfield16

@Seadragon Do you have a pic of the Chaeto / magnet setup? I browsed your office tank thread but must've missed that.

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Clown79
4 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

If you google it, https://www.google.com/search?q=xenia+nutrient+export&oq=xenia, there's 49,400 links talking about Xenia as a Nutrient Export.  Some hobbyists use only Xenia within their refugium since it grows so well.  Like you said, throw tons away on a weekly basis.

It's made no difference to nutrient levels in or out of my tanks.

 

My tanks have the same nutrient levels.

 

1 has dragons breath and a crap ton of xenia, the other had neither.

 

 

There is a lot of info on forums that isn't exactly proven but belief.

 

Like xenia like low light and high nutrients. 

 

It actually grows even in low nutrient tanks and loves light.

 

The pumping action only occurs in low flow areas.

 

Just like the theory that palytoxin only exists in paly's and zoas. Scientific research has proven that a lot of soft corals have palytoxin, xenia being on that list.

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