Tank is being attacked by brown spiderweb

[justinkdenny]

3 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

I actually feel bad that you're experiencing these Dino's.  If it was my tank, I'd do a couple things right away to get rid of those damn Dino's.  Whether or not you dose H2O2 and even if the Dino's disappeared (temporarily) because of that, that is not the End Game solution.  The long term solution will always be biodiversity.  So, no matter what you do (and hopefully you do this before you end up quitting or restarting), you really need to give Chaeto a try and add some live rock.  And keep siphoning out the Dino's.  What I found that really keeps the nitrates and phosphates too low is a protein skimmer which is why I do not use those on any of my tanks.  I believe you said you have one of those, why not stop that for now, start using chaeto and have the chaeto outcompete the Dino's, and use mechanical & chemical (carbon) filtration to maintain good water quality and remove toxins that the Dino's may release.

I actually don't have a protein skimmer.   I dont know why I cant keep nitrates and phosphates up without dosing.  I feed really heavily too. Lol.  I'm not sure the best way to add macroalga to the tank.  I have a im nuvo 10 and I have uv in first chamber, pod rubble container and carbon in second and ato sensor and heater in the third.  I guess I could add some type of aesthetically pleasing macro to main display.  Do you have any recommendations on live rock?  My lfs doesn't keep the real stuff.  They just cycle the fake purple stuff in big tubs.

[Seadragon]

10 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

Do you have any recommendations on live rock?

 

I would just contact a few different LFS in your area (and any hobbyists in your area if you know any) and see if any would sell or give you some established live rock from their display tank.  The only time I purchased live rock was for my School NR tank (which used to have the Dino's before by the way) and it was a decent size rock that had a huge amount of GSP (Green Star Polyps) on it.  I even got some free Asterina starfish out of the deal that were hiding on the rock.  That rock with the GSP came straight from one of their main display tanks.

[Clown79]

4 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

I actually don't have a protein skimmer.   I dont know why I cant keep nitrates and phosphates up without dosing.  I feed really heavily too. Lol.  I'm not sure the best way to add macroalga to the tank.  I have a im nuvo 10 and I have uv in first chamber, pod rubble container and carbon in second and ato sensor and heater in the third.  I guess I could add some type of aesthetically pleasing macro to main display.  Do you have any recommendations on live rock?  My lfs doesn't keep the real stuff.  They just cycle the fake purple stuff in big tubs.

If the UV is in the back chamber, it won't work o. The dino's.

 

As far as I have heard, it needs to be in the display at that's where the dino's are mostly located.

[mcarroll]

22 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

I have a im nuvo 10 and I have uv in first chamber, pod rubble container and carbon in second and ato sensor and heater in the third.

You can clear out the pod rubble and carbon if you wanted.  And if possible, move the UV into the display tank.  That clears out most of the back for whatever you want.

 

If there's a protein skimmer that fits, I would consider it. 

 

I don't think I'd start running macroalgae due to the nutrient situation.  The exception is if you can get some Chaetomorpha to use as "dino bait".  Dino's looooove to live on Chaeto. 

 

This is one of the more experimental treatments for Amphidinium-type dino's, but it's logical and may help.

 

I'd try to keep a "pure" batch of chaeto going external to the tank (for as long as your supply lasts) and just add it into the display one chunk per day -- put it right onto a "trouble spot". (Get creative to keep it there.)  At the end of the day before lights-out, put that chaeto in a cup, remove it from the tank and flush it.   But read up...I don't think too many folks have tried this many times. Managing all those little bits of Chaeto in your display will be pretty important...because of that it may not be the right answer for you or your tank.  Missed chaeto frags can be counted on to grow and it can become invasive.

 

You may have to do extra tests/doses to keep nitrates and phosphates up even though the chaeto won't be around that long.  It can be a sponge for nutrients.

[justinkdenny]

14 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You can clear out the pod rubble and carbon if you wanted.  And if possible, move the UV into the display tank. 

I have to run carbon because of the toxins.  snails don't do well even though im running it.  also i have the im uv filter that is made to run in the back chamber and uses the return flow.  could i just take bulb out and submerge in main display?

[Clown79]

15 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You can clear out the pod rubble and carbon if you wanted.  And if possible, move the UV into the display tank.  That clears out most of the back for whatever you want.

 

If there's a protein skimmer that fits, I would consider it. 

 

I don't think I'd start running macroalgae due to the nutrient situation.  The exception is if you can get some Chaetomorpha to use as "dino bait".  Dino's looooove to live on Chaeto. 

 

This is one of the more experimental treatments for Amphidinium-type dino's, but it's logical and may help.

 

I'd try to keep a "pure" batch of chaeto going external to the tank (for as long as your supply lasts) and just add it into the display one chunk per day -- put it right onto a "trouble spot". (Get creative to keep it there.)  At the end of the day before lights-out, put that chaeto in a cup, remove it from the tank and flush it.   But read up...I don't think too many folks have tried this many times. Managing all those little bits of Chaeto in your display will be pretty important...because of that it may not be the right answer for you or your tank.  Missed chaeto frags can be counted on to grow and it can become invasive.

 

You may have to do extra tests/doses to keep nitrates and phosphates up even though the chaeto won't be around that long.  It can be a sponge for nutrients.

Dino's also liked living in my dragons breath. They were actually the worst there, so I removed the dragons breath.

 

I had read the same thing about chaeto. Breeding ground for dino's. 

[mcarroll]

I read it here where the author compiled a table:

Macroalgal palatability and the flux of ciguatera toxins through marine food webs

(from the PDF)

Unfortunately, microalgae are just listed together as "turfs" since (according to the notes) apparently nobody in science ID's them to the genus level.

 

(Notably, Bryopsis is listed distinctly and lacks a simple label of "chemically defended" as some of our hobbymates prefer to think.   They elaborate on this a little bit elsewhere in the article, including some more references.)

[Tamberav]

Ya don't add macro with dino. I have found it loves to grow on macro. It seems to help them survive. 

 

Generally we are not trying to lower nitrate and PO4 with dino anyways.

 

 

[Seadragon]

That's weird that myself and others with videos use Chaeto and have no Dino problems at all.  To each their own, I believe biodiversity defeats Dino's and Chaeto adds to that biodiversity.  Speaking from both logic and personal experience.

[Seadragon]

I normally see Dino's in tanks that are void of biodiversity.  They may have a protein skimmer, they may do lots of water changes while having Dino's which just supplies the Dino's with more nutrients to grow, and they may be lacking in any of these areas: bacteria/macroalgae/algae/copepods.

[Seadragon]

You know what's funny... 99% of the people with Dino's don't even have Chaeto to begin with!!  LOL.  How can you blame chaeto or any macroalgae when their system is void of both biodiversity and macroalgae to begin with!  That's the problem.  A lot of misinformation out there blaming something that isn't even part of the problem to begin with.

[Clown79]

5 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

You know what's funny... 99% of the people with Dino's don't even have Chaeto to begin with!!  LOL.  How can you blame chaeto or any macroalgae when their system is void of both biodiversity and macroalgae to begin with!  That's the problem.  A lot of misinformation out there blaming something that isn't even part of the problem to begin with.

Can you verify that 99% of dino sufferers around the world didn't have macroalgae at the time or anytime for that matter? 

 

It's quite a blanketed statement to claim every individual who suffers dino's has no biodiversity, never used chaeto etc etc.

 

 

[Seadragon]

10 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Can you verify that 99% of dino sufferers around the world didn't have macroalgae at the time or anytime for that matter? 

 

It's quite a blanketed statement to claim every individual who suffers dino's has no biodiversity, never used chaeto etc etc.

 

 

 

Seeing that the solution is biodiversity and the lack thereof creates the perfect environment for Dino's, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to make that leap.

[Tamberav]

My macro dominant tanks were always the easiest to get dino since dino seems to favor colonizing macro and it is easy to get 0 nitrate and 0 PO4 in a macro heavy tank. 

 

I don't believe cheato has anything to do with helping with dino except potentially bringing in new bacteria/pods but there are better ways to do that.

 

Dosing PO4/Nitrate was my solution in the macro tanks, mostly PO4. 

[Clown79]

34 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

Seeing that the solution is biodiversity and the lack thereof creates the perfect environment for Dino's, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to make that leap.

What about those who have increased biodiversity, increased nutrients and still get or have dino's?

 

 

[Seadragon]

20 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

My macro dominant tanks were always the easiest to get dino since dino seems to favor colonizing macro and it is easy to get 0 nitrate and 0 PO4 in a macro heavy tank. 

 

I don't believe cheato has anything to do with helping with dino except potentially bringing in new bacteria/pods but there are better ways to do that.

 

Dosing PO4/Nitrate was my solution in the macro tanks, mostly PO4. 

 

Truth is, I don't rely only on Chaeto.  It's just part of the overall biodiversity solution in the plan that worked for me for my tank that had Dino's (School NR).  I also added Live Rock (that has bacteria and algae on it) + had Tisbe Copepods that were dumped into the Chaeto at various times.

 

Do you have a protein skimmer on the macro dominant tanks?  How often and how large of water changes do you do?

 

Perhaps the reason I do see success with Chaeto is because I do not have a protein skimmer and I do not do water changes at all so there's always Nitrates and phosphates for the Chaeto to feed off of.  I'll keep this in mind of why I'm successful since I know not everyone does this.  Good insight though, thanks.

[Seadragon]

12 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

What about those who have increased biodiversity, increased nutrients and still get or have dino's?

 

We'll help them on a case per case basis.  One hobbyist at a time.

[Tamberav]

2 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

Truth is, I don't rely only on Chaeto.  It's just part of the overall biodiversity solution in the plan that worked for me for my tank that had Dino's (School NR).  I also added Live Rock (that has bacteria and algae on it) + had Tisbe Copepods that were dumped into the Chaeto at various times.

 

Do you have a protein skimmer on the macro dominant tanks?  How often and how large of water changes do you do?

 

Perhaps the reason I do see success with Chaeto is because I do not have a protein skimmer and I do not do water changes at all so there's always Nitrates and phosphates for the Chaeto to feed off of.  I'll keep this in mind of why I'm successful since I know not everyone does this.  Good insight though, thanks.

 

 

Not doing water changes is one of the methods to defeat dino. To try and starve them of certain trace elements as well as raise nutrients. 

 

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, Seadragon said:

That's weird that myself and others with videos use Chaeto and have no Dino problems at all.  To each their own, I believe biodiversity defeats Dino's and Chaeto adds to that biodiversity.  Speaking from both logic and personal experience.

Most of nature isn't all that logical.....we aren't logical, and dino's most definitely aren't logical.

 

Also, chaeto may be popular, but let's be careful in how we think about popular things.  (My favorite saying on the matter: "There's something wrong with everything that's popular.") 

 

Chaeto (even macro algae in general) is still just a tool that is capable of being misused -- the same as any other tool. 

 

Chaeto is not a cure-all against anything -- not against hair algae, and least of all against dino's which absolutely love it.

 

I'd suggest that anyone who encounters dino's in their tank to please read the first post on my Dino thread at least, and before doing anything extreme.  Ideally read through the information sources linked as well.  Reading through some of the experiences posted in the thread is a good idea too, although don't get lost in there -- that's a LOT of posts!

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

 

If you're really brave and want a deep  lesson on what not to do, read through one or two of the long threads that preceded my Dino thread.  I linked the main one in my first post as soon as I created the thread.  There's another one that specializes in hydrogen peroxide craziness.  (I'm not linking them here on purpose.)

[Clown79]

5 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Most of nature isn't all that logical.....we aren't logical, and dino's most definitely aren't logical.

 

Also, chaeto may be popular, but let's be careful in how we think about popular things.  (My favorite saying on the matter: "There's something wrong with everything that's popular.") 

 

Chaeto (even macro algae in general) is still just a tool that is capable of being misused -- the same as any other tool. 

 

Chaeto is not a cure-all against anything -- not against hair algae, and least of all against dino's which absolutely love it.

 

I'd suggest that anyone who encounters dino's in their tank to please read the first post on my Dino thread at least, and before doing anything extreme.  Ideally read through the information sources linked as well.  Reading through some of the experiences posted in the thread is a good idea too, although don't get lost in there -- that's a LOT of posts!

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

 

If you're really brave and want a deep  lesson on what not to do, read through one or two of the long threads that preceded my Dino thread.  I linked the main one in my first post as soon as I created the thread.  There's another one that specializes in hydrogen peroxide craziness.  (I'm not linking them here on purpose.)

 

I learned a lot from that thread- what to do and what not to do.

 

I then did more in depth research (non forum/YouTube) which I feel is very important. Scientific studies are not about opinion or popularity, its fact.

[Seadragon]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

Most of nature isn't all that logical.....we aren't logical, and dino's most definitely aren't logical.

 

Also, chaeto may be popular, but let's be careful in how we think about popular things.  (My favorite saying on the matter: "There's something wrong with everything that's popular.") 

 

Chaeto (even macro algae in general) is still just a tool that is capable of being misused -- the same as any other tool. 

 

Chaeto is not a cure-all against anything -- not against hair algae, and least of all against dino's which absolutely love it.

 

I'd suggest that anyone who encounters dino's in their tank to please read the first post on my Dino thread at least, and before doing anything extreme.  Ideally read through the information sources linked as well.  Reading through some of the experiences posted in the thread is a good idea too, although don't get lost in there -- that's a LOT of posts!

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

 

If you're really brave and want a deep  lesson on what not to do, read through one or two of the long threads that preceded my Dino thread.  I linked the main one in my first post as soon as I created the thread.  There's another one that specializes in hydrogen peroxide craziness.  (I'm not linking them here on purpose.)

 

I looked over the thread.  Again, a lot of hobbyists that have Dino's do not even have Chaeto within their tanks.  So blaming Chaeto for Dino's is very misleading.  The only thing to blame is that their tanks are void of Biodiversity and lack the proper nutrients for that diversity to survive.  I do believe you can have too much of a good thing, such as macroalgae, so there needs to be balance as well, and moderation for all things.  It's like, if you have too many fish, everything will die because the bio-load gets too high.  The same goes for everything else.  A moderate amount of Chaeto or macroalgae will not cause the "end of the world" theme you seem to be shouting.  When it grows, you remove some, thus the point of a nutrient exporter.  And if you're doing lots of water changes or you have a protein skimmer, then don't get Chaeto or macroalgae.  You're already depleting your tank of the nitrates and phosphates manually.

[Clown79]

4 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

I looked over the thread.  Again, a lot of hobbyists that have Dino's do not even have Chaeto within their tanks.  So blaming Chaeto for Dino's is very misleading.  The only thing to blame is that their tanks are void of Biodiversity and lack the proper nutrients for that diversity to survive.  I do believe you can have too much of a good thing, such as macroalgae, so there needs to be balance as well, and moderation for all things.  It's like, if you have too many fish, everything will die because the bio-load gets too high.  The same goes for everything else.  A moderate amount of Chaeto or macroalgae will not cause the "end of the world" theme you seem to be shouting.  When it grows, you remove some, thus the point of a nutrient exporter.  And if you're doing lots of water changes or you have a protein skimmer, then don't get Chaeto or macroalgae.  You're already depleting your tank of the nitrates and phosphates manually.

We aren't blaming chaeto.

 

Dino's love macroalgae and multiply within it. This isn't an opinion, this isn't an attack on chaeto.

 

Scientists proved it through various studies. Many hobbyists confirmed it with experience. 

[Seadragon]

Just now, Clown79 said:

We aren't blaming chaeto. Scientists proved it.

 

Link your proof.

[Clown79]

5 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

Link your proof.

We had this conversation yesterday. I am not going to constantly repeat myself.

 

Use Google, research the science.

[Seadragon]

Just now, Clown79 said:

We had this conversation yesterday. I am not going to constantly repeat myself.

 

Use Google, research the science.

 

See, I hear the scientists also prove that within my tank, it has Chaeto and no Dino's.  😄