Feasibility of Classroom Tank

[aclman88]

On 1/10/2020 at 11:01 AM, Joevember said:

Thought I'd chime in as well. I set up at 2.5 for the pico contest in a high school science classroom, and it went well for the first few months. I went for a softie and nem focus since dosing is kind of pricy and is a lot of maintenence and testing... plus 2.5 gallons would have been impossible for me to keep stable. It worked out well for me in the end, tons of color and cool movement.

 

Now the tank is 10 gallons, and much more bulletproof than a pico. I'd suggest an ATO you can really trust since you'd only be able to see the tank 5 times a week, so equipment failure is much more important. Also, you'll be moving it a lot because of breaks, so get a lot of buckets ready. 

Hope this helps

  Do you break down the tank for every break or just summer?

[Joevember]

16 minutes ago, aclman88 said:

  Do you break down the tank for every break or just summer?

If the break is a week or less, then I'll leave it since moving it takes so much time. My setup seems pretty good for breaks. Just inverts and corals makes it easy since I dom't have to feed any fish regularly.

So far it was moved for a teacher's strike and winter break. I'll be taking it back for the summer

[mcarroll]

18 hours ago, aclman88 said:

We have a whole science supply room to set up a mixing station and all that. Plus I would have my students involved in a lot of maintenance. 

If you already have space and labor, then I wouldn't be too shy about asking for donations of other gear (or possibly even everything else you need) from your local stores in the area.  Discounts might be offered, at the very least.  It would be worth the time to have a few conversations on the topic!  👍

 

As to the bleaching experiment, don't feel bad, just do it smartly and within a proper educational context. 

 

Consider:

Bleaching <> killing. 

 

When bleached, the coral animal is still alive, and likely so are the dino's....just free-living outside the host.  Bleaching is merely a self-protective behavior, but a risky since there may not be adequate food for the coral to survive on their own.  After the stress is removed from the frag (or the frag is returned to favorable conditions) it will be fairly likely to adopt new dino symbionts and live happily ever after.

 

Similar experiments are done every day in academic settings around the globe.  It seems like it would be worth looking one up (scholar.google.com) to see if you could replicate it.

 

Zillions of frags bleach out in the ocean every day.  (Only a fraction of them can end up in favorable conditions.)

 

I personally have generated at least 20 or 30 gallons worth of "waste frags" aka clippings aka trimmings from my system over the years.  I felt bad at first, but when you have finite tank space and a limited market, that's where they go.  I save em for mounting frags and other purposes though.  My own DIY dead "live rock"....I just use coral for their labor.  😉

 

Nothing goes to waste. 

 

Corals can't even make a reef in the ocean without generating some "dead" rock in the process.

[icatchsnook]

19 hours ago, aclman88 said:

Oh man that’s a bummer. Any chance you can convince the powers that be?

Probably not, I like to talk to students about tanks and show them pictures.  Next best thing I guess.  A few individuals have started tanks because of this and it supports our lone LFS we have in town which is cool.

[aclman88]

On 1/11/2020 at 3:08 PM, mcarroll said:

When bleached, the coral animal is still alive, and likely so are the dino's....just free-living outside the host.  Bleaching is merely a self-protective behavior, but a risky since there may not be adequate food for the coral to survive on their own.  After the stress is removed from the frag (or the frag is returned to favorable conditions) it will be fairly likely to adopt new dino symbionts and live happily ever after.

 

Similar experiments are done every day in academic settings around the globe.  It seems like it would be worth looking one up (scholar.google.com) to see if you could replicate it.

 

Zillions of frags bleach out in the ocean every day.  (Only a fraction of them can end up in favorable conditions.)

 

I personally have generated at least 20 or 30 gallons worth of "waste frags" aka clippings aka trimmings from my system over the years.  I felt bad at first, but when you have finite tank space and a limited market, that's where they go.  I save em for mounting frags and other purposes though.  My own DIY dead "live rock"....I just use coral for their labor.  😉

 

Nothing goes to waste. 

 

Corals can't even make a reef in the ocean without generating some "dead" rock in the process.

All very good points.. thank you for elaborating this a little more!  I have begun the process of soliciting donations from manufacturers after seeing a post over on reef2reef by a teacher who did the same thing.  They said they had much better luck reaching out directly to manufacturers rather than local stores.  My guess is that local stores have too much overhead whereas a donation from a manufacturer is done at cost (since there is no retail markup).  CaribSea already got back and is sending live sand and rock for a 20 gallon tank!  Hoping to get similar responses from other manufacturers.  Would like the cost of the reef to mostly come from maintenance and upkeep since that is something my school could help with and I could ask for through teacher funding sites, such as donors choose.

 

I am on a local reefing site and have a promise of frags once things get situated.  

[hinnenkm]

I've been meaning to chime in on this thread, but things have just been so busy lately. I have had a tank in my classroom for the past 7 years now (not the same tank because it took awhile to figure out what works best for my situation). But the current tank has made it to the year and half mark and it is the system that I will stick with into the future. 

I teach 5th grade and have a Nuvo 10 Fusion in my classroom with an additional 5 gallon frag tank. We have an aquarium club that meets once a week on Mondays and then the tank/inhabitants/corals are referenced a lot during our biology unit.

 

Over breaks, I set the tank up with a diy auto top off and then automatic feeders, but I still check in on them every couple of days. During summer break, a 10 gallon tank is easy enough to dismantle and then set back up at my house. 

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how your set up progresses! Best of luck and let me know if you need to bounce any ideas off of me!

 

The tank has grown in quite a bit since this pic, but it at least gives you an idea of the set up 🙂

[aclman88]

19 minutes ago, hinnenkm said:

I've been meaning to chime in on this thread, but things have just been so busy lately. I have had a tank in my classroom for the past 7 years now (not the same tank because it took awhile to figure out what works best for my situation). But the current tank has made it to the year and half mark and it is the system that I will stick with into the future. 

I teach 5th grade and have a Nuvo 10 Fusion in my classroom with an additional 5 gallon frag tank. We have an aquarium club that meets once a week on Mondays and then the tank/inhabitants/corals are referenced a lot during our biology unit.

 

Over breaks, I set the tank up with a diy auto top off and then automatic feeders, but I still check in on them every couple of days. During summer break, a 10 gallon tank is easy enough to dismantle and then set back up at my house. 

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how your set up progresses! Best of luck and let me know if you need to bounce any ideas off of me!

 

The tank has grown in quite a bit since this pic, but it at least gives you an idea of the set up 🙂

 

Thanks for reaching out!  That is great to hear and hoping to have result as awesome as yours.  I just found out that I am getting an RODI donated for the project, so things are starting to look like it will become a reality.  What are you using for lighting?  Since it is a classroom tank, do you keep a lid to ensure things stay out of the water?

 

I will be sure to reach out with any other classroom specific questions that come to mind.

[hinnenkm]

1 minute ago, aclman88 said:

 

Thanks for reaching out!  That is great to hear and hoping to have result as awesome as yours.  I just found out that I am getting an RODI donated for the project, so things are starting to look like it will become a reality.  What are you using for lighting?  Since it is a classroom tank, do you keep a lid to ensure things stay out of the water?

 

I will be sure to reach out with any other classroom specific questions that come to mind.

I have an on/off version of the Nanobox Tide and it works great! As far as a cover, I always cover my tanks not because it's in a classroom, but because I don't want to lose any of my livestock - it's just good practice because these animals are in our care 🙂 Through the years, my kids have always been super respectful of the tanks and their inhabitants, so I wouldn't be worried about things getting into it. I'm not sure what your students are like though?

 

[aclman88]

1 hour ago, hinnenkm said:

I have an on/off version of the Nanobox Tide and it works great! As far as a cover, I always cover my tanks not because it's in a classroom, but because I don't want to lose any of my livestock - it's just good practice because these animals are in our care 🙂 Through the years, my kids have always been super respectful of the tanks and their inhabitants, so I wouldn't be worried about things getting into it. I'm not sure what your students are like though?

 

 

Sounds good.  I leave mine uncovered at home because covered it would overheat in about 5 minutes with no way to manage temperature and I also have inverts and one damsel, so jumping hasn't been an issue.  My students are great but it is a share classroom so I am not always able to supervise and keep an eye on things.

 

[Clown79]

As long as everything is planned out right and a plan for what to do during long breaks(summer) it should be fairly easy to deal with a small tank.

 

The one thing that should be considered if students will be doing any maintenance in tank, is safety while working in the tank 

 

Corals do produce toxins, there is bacteria in the tank, and of course things like bristle worms.

 

[aclman88]

19 hours ago, Clown79 said:

As long as everything is planned out right and a plan for what to do during long breaks(summer) it should be fairly easy to deal with a small tank.

 

The one thing that should be considered if students will be doing any maintenance in tank, is safety while working in the tank 

 

Corals do produce toxins, there is bacteria in the tank, and of course things like bristle worms.

 

Good point!  We have nitrile gloves that I would have my students wear during any maintenance on the tank.

[aclman88]

I am having trouble getting a company to donate an AIO tank so I may end up using an old 20L I have lying around.  If so, would I be better off using an AC 70 or 100 for chemical filtration?  I already have heater, wave pumps, sand, rock and salt.  Also would like recommendations for lighting.  I was thinking a current Orbit Marine.  Thoughts?

[mcarroll]

Talk to your local PetCo about the tank....they regularly have that $1/gallon sale anyway so they might be more friendly to a donation.

 

Why not ask about a lighting donation as well?

 

Anything properly sized will work.  (And for such a small tank, there really isn't much out there that won't be at least the right size.)

 

Current USA is a great option.

[mcarroll]

Either filter option should be fine. 

 

As an alternative, consider running only a protein skimmer for a more simple, less-costly setup. 

 

Skimmers have no throw-away parts, so in the long run they are extremely economical.  A Tunze 9001 or similar ought to be enough.

 

Keep the tank lightly stocked in terms of fish no matter what you go with...it'll be far easier and less trouble to maintain. 

 

Keeping no fish can make it almost self-maintaining...something to think about for all those weekends and holidays when the tank won't be getting daily attention.  (Something most folks don't consider even when it would be smart.)

[aclman88]

2 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Talk to your local PetCo about the tank....they regularly have that $1/gallon sale anyway so they might be more friendly to a donation.

 

Why not ask about a lighting donation as well?

 

Anything properly sized will work.  (And for such a small tank, there really isn't much out there that won't be at least the right size.)

 

Current USA is a great option.

 

I have reached out to around 30 some odd manufacturers requesting donations.  So far caribsea is providing all of the sand and rock needed, hygger is giving a thermostat controller for a heater, cobalt is donating a 75W heater, and Aquafx is giving an RODI unit... so things are well on their way.  Still waiting to hear back from about half of the companies, and I just sent an email to Current right before you posted so hopefully things will pan out.

 

Its great that so many companies are willing to support me and my studnets.

[mcarroll]

2 minutes ago, aclman88 said:

Its great that so many companies are willing to support me and my studnets.

Definitely!  🙂

 

[Seadragon]

16 minutes ago, aclman88 said:

 

I have reached out to around 30 some odd manufacturers requesting donations.  So far caribsea is providing all of the sand and rock needed, hygger is giving a thermostat controller for a heater, cobalt is donating a 75W heater, and Aquafx is giving an RODI unit... so things are well on their way.  Still waiting to hear back from about half of the companies, and I just sent an email to Current right before you posted so hopefully things will pan out.

 

Its great that so many companies are willing to support me and my studnets.

 

That's amazing!  I didn't even know companies were willing to donate equipment for classrooms.  Could've saved us a few hundred dollars.  Question: When you email them, do you use your school email address and do they have to ship the equipment to the school's main office?

 

I also use the Current USA LEDs on both of my tanks and had a lot of success with them.  The Current USA Orbit Marine is set at a good price on Amazon.  It used to be around $50 more less than a year ago.

[aclman88]

13 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Either filter option should be fine. 

 

As an alternative, consider running only a protein skimmer for a more simple, less-costly setup. 

 

Skimmers have no throw-away parts, so in the long run they are extremely economical.  A Tunze 9001 or similar ought to be enough.

 

Keep the tank lightly stocked in terms of fish no matter what you go with...it'll be far easier and less trouble to maintain. 

 

Keeping no fish can make it almost self-maintaining...something to think about for all those weekends and holidays when the tank won't be getting daily attention.  (Something most folks don't consider even when it would be smart.)

Would I be able to run a skimmer in tank, and not use additional filtration?  I like the idea of a HOB using filter floss and other chemical media to remove nutrients and detritus.

 

No fish would definitely be easier, but no way I can have a saltwater tank in my classroom and not have a clownfish pair.  I really would like them and I know my students would appreciate having them as well.  In a 20 L i would get maybe one bottom dwelling fish... I use to have an engineer goby back in high school when I had a tank and that thing was awesome.

[aclman88]

10 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

That's amazing!  I didn't even know companies were willing to donate equipment for classrooms.  Could've saved us a few hundred dollars.  Question: When you email them, do you use your school email address and do they have to ship the equipment to the school's main office?

 

I also use the Current USA LEDs on both of my tanks and had a lot of success with them.  The Current USA Orbit Marine is set at a good price on Amazon.  It used to be around $50 more less than a year ago.

I got the idea from a two year old post by a teacher I came across on reef2reef.  I use a form letter, detailing who I am, where I teach, my students and why I want to set up a classroom tank.  The end of the letter is where I request the supplies I need from each particular manufacturer.  I contacted the teacher of the post from reef2reef and they helped me a little bit with who to reach out too.  CaribSea has donated to that teacher twice and they responded literally 10 minutes after I sent the email saying they would love to help out.

 

I include my school website in the letter and a link to the staff page.  All emails are sent from my address, and if I use the company's contact us section from their website, I put in my school email address.  Hope that helps!

[mcarroll]

53 minutes ago, aclman88 said:

Would I be able to run a skimmer in tank, and not use additional filtration?

Live rock + Protein skimmer is the combo that caused the whole reef thing to break out.  aka The BerlinMethod (after the Berlin reef Club)

 

Before that it was all filter floss and box filters and very mixed success.

 

So...

 

Get live rock....it's worth whatever price you have to pay (get it shipped direct) but whenever I've looked it's WAY cheaper than starting with dead rock and trying to make it alive.  You should only need around 10-20 pounds (less than 20 for sure) for a 20 Gallon tank.

 

Use a protein skimmer (already detailed).

 

TBsaltwater's Pricing Chart from their website. 

 

Even if you just defaulted and ordered their kit for a 20 Gallon, it's only $266. 

 

However, that's very oversized for what you'll need IMO.  (Would be enough to share/split the cost or to set up multiple tanks.) 

 

Their 20 gallon package gets you 40 pounds of live rock, 20 pounds of live sand, a crap load of hermits and snails and some other scavengers as well.  It's really a lot for what you pay.

 

If you downshifted and went with a 10 Gallon package, it knocks over one hundred bucks off the cost ($155) and you STILL get 20 pounds of rock, 10 pounds of live sand and a crap load of cleanup crew.  This is probably what I'd do unless you have a use case for the extras you'll get with the bigger packages.

 

Don't mean to "pick on" tbsaltwater....there are a number of rock aquaculture outfits to choose from.....but they are one of the best known.

 

As far as this being a learning experience, the live rock alone (with it's many beneficial hitchhikers...from algae to corals) will easily be able to satisfy this need.  Spend plenty of observation time on the rock for at least a few months before adding anything new -- discover everything that it comes with!  😃 

 

Anything you add later on (corals, fish, other inverts, etc) will be like icing on the educational cake.

[aclman88]

1 minute ago, mcarroll said:

As far as this being a learning experience, the live rock alone (with it's many beneficial hitchhikers...from algae to corals) will easily be able to satisfy this need.  Spend plenty of observation time on the rock for at least a few months before adding anything new -- discover everything that it comes with!  😃 

 

Anything you add later on (corals, fish, other inverts, etc) will be like icing on the educational cake.

 

Great idea! CaribSea already is sending their sand and rock (be here Thursday& so I will be going with that option as it is most cost effective for me.  I may look locally for a few small pieces from reefers to help seed the new tank.  I will also probably take some sand from my own tank.  I agree to take things slow, and the fish might not come until after the summer is over to ensure that thing run smoothly and the tank can stabilize. 

 

I am running a pico reef (3.7 gallon) at home with just an AC 20 with success, so I was wondering if an HOB would be sufficient for 20 gallons.   I have actually never run a protein skimmer so no little to nothing about their operation.  Other than the Tunze, are their other recommendations for in tank skimmers that would be worth looking into? I've seen that Reef Glass has a lot of positive reviews.

[mcarroll]

Skimmers are old technology, so just about any brand should work. 

 

E.g. My old Oceanic "Plus Series" Model 6 was patented in 1993 (yes patented) and is still an excellent skimmer today.

 

Tunze is the recommendation in this case because they:

• aren't priced badly
• are Geman-made and high performance
• come with excellent support
• come with an excellent warranty.

A "winning ticket" so to speak. 😉

 

22 minutes ago, aclman88 said:

I am running a pico reef (3.7 gallon) at home with just an AC 20 with success

This combo is popular mostly because there didn't used to be good skimmer options (or any options, really) for such a small tank. 

 

The box filter is ideal for a fish-only.....but it is a hack for a reef.

 

Hacks can work, obviously, but I'd choose live rock + protein skimmer every time it was an available option.

 

Danner still apparently makes the first box-filter hack (c.1994'ish)....they integrated a venturi protein skimmer:

Skilter 250 Power Filter - Up to 55 gallons ... - Amazon.com

 

Folks had no luck with it back in the day, but that was before automatic top-offs were a thing.....

 

Folks didn't yet realize two key things:

• how much a skimmer depends on a constant water level.
• tune a skimmer based on skimmate output rather than the skimmer's current activity level.

I suspect it would work fine in a modern tank that is outfitted with proper level controls.  (This is the norm today.)  Seems to work well for at least some reviewers....same as modern skimmers.  LOL

 

Folks used to mod them to work with basswood airstones since airstone skimmers were "all the rage" at the time. (DIY skimmers were just about as popular as commercially made ones).

 

I've never had a tank small enough to justify a skimmer like the Skilter, but I'd love to try one out someday.

 

22 minutes ago, aclman88 said:

cost effective

...at the price of the learning experience.   Think of the children!!  😉

 

"How to save a buck" will be the only lesson in the rock at that rate.  Hardly seems like a lesson worth teaching in 2020 where everything is cheap.

 

It's one thing to prioritize cheapness on a home tank in that manner.....learn as little (or as much) as you want to in that case. 

 

But where education is the whole idea, going dead seems like a bad choice to me.  Unless your intent is to teach them about HAB's -- harmful algae blooms -- in which case it's the perfect choice!  Ack!!  😏

 

After all those donations you didn't expect, I'd choose to spend some of your actual cash budget on live rock for this tank and either save the dead rock...or sell the dead rock to offset the cost of live.   (Have you asked for a donation from any of the live rock places yet?)

It's unlikely that "live rock" from a buddy will be in the same vein for your learning project as aquacultured rock from one of the vendors....it'll probably look just like dead rock.

 

Check out TBsaltwater's catalog of organisms that folks have ID'd on their rock in the past.  Stuff that's extremely unlikely to be on regular live rock.

 

Another aspect to this is that what you will see come in with your live rock is actually from domestic U.S. waters....it's only a wrinkle to the learning that will happen, but isn't learning about our local sea life even more justifiable than learning about stuff in far away oceans?

[aclman88]

16 hours ago, mcarroll said:

But where education is the whole idea, going dead seems like a bad choice to me.  Unless your intent is to teach them about HAB's -- harmful algae blooms -- in which case it's the perfect choice!  Ack!!  😏

 

Would going with aquacultured live rock stop the possibility of algal blooms?  I was under the assumption that diatoms and algae are a likelihood with any reef, especially a new one that has yet to stabilize.

16 hours ago, mcarroll said:

After all those donations you didn't expect, I'd choose to spend some of your actual cash budget on live rock for this tank and either save the dead rock...or sell the dead rock to offset the cost of live.   (Have you asked for a donation from any of the live rock places yet?)

Good idea on selling the rock to offset cost as I hadn't considered that.  I also never thought to reach out to those companies... great idea!  You seem to be much more knowledgable about that subject... do you have a few names of other places you would recommend for live rock that I could reach out to?  As far as budget, I still need some major components (lights, skimmer, filtration, salt, and possibly even a tank) so until those are procured I can't think about ordering live rock just yet.  I would never put the kids learning in jeopardy, but I also have to be realistic about what I can actually afford myself.  

16 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Another aspect to this is that what you will see come in with your live rock is actually from domestic U.S. waters..

Another great point.  ideas and comments, such as yours, is the reason I started this thread.  It has given me a lot to think about.  I am definitely leaning towards a skimmer along with a small HOB available to run chemical filtration.  Is a skimmer something that needs constant adjustment, or can it be set and left for a week at a time? 

 

Lastly, Inkbird got back to me and I have the option of a controller that can be used with two heating elements or one with a heating and cooling control function.  I was leaning towards heating and cooling so that I can hook a fan up since the room can get warm in the summer (and even the winter when the heat is blasting).  Thoughts?

[Tired]

Pest algae blooms happen when nutrients are too low, and, in particular, when biodiversity is too low. When you have 20 types of algae competing with each other, and little pods running around eating said algae, it's much harder for one species to overpopulate. I MASSIVELY recommend getting yourself some proper live rock, for that reason, because good live rock will quickly if not instantly cycle your tank, and because of all the fun things that will come in on it. I used some really good live rock from my LFS, similar quality to what you can order, and it cycled my tank to a level of keeping zoanthids happy as soon as the rock was in. 

 

Check out Gulfliverock and KP Aquatics.

[Ratvan]

On 1/13/2020 at 3:56 PM, hinnenkm said:

I've been meaning to chime in on this thread, but things have just been so busy lately. I have had a tank in my classroom for the past 7 years now (not the same tank because it took awhile to figure out what works best for my situation). But the current tank has made it to the year and half mark and it is the system that I will stick with into the future. 

I teach 5th grade and have a Nuvo 10 Fusion in my classroom with an additional 5 gallon frag tank. We have an aquarium club that meets once a week on Mondays and then the tank/inhabitants/corals are referenced a lot during our biology unit.

 

Over breaks, I set the tank up with a diy auto top off and then automatic feeders, but I still check in on them every couple of days. During summer break, a 10 gallon tank is easy enough to dismantle and then set back up at my house. 

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how your set up progresses! Best of luck and let me know if you need to bounce any ideas off of me!

 

The tank has grown in quite a bit since this pic, but it at least gives you an idea of the set up 🙂

Am I going mad or did you run a Fluval Spec 3 in your classroom at some point?