Frogspawn Bleaching?

[Kentech5]

 

Was looking at the tank today and realized my frogspawn seems a tad too white. Ive been noticing the last few days it’s a lot lighter than my other euphyllia but it occurred to me today that I think it was darker. Its been getting about 400 par where it is, which is more than I thought it was getting originally. To complicate things I just upgraded lights last night. I tried to match PAR, which is when I realized how much light the frogspawn was getting. 
 

The new light is set to start at 70% of my target settings, which should be an approximation of my old lighting, so in theory its getting less light today than it has been. So my question is do I move it down now or wait out the acclimation period on the lights?

[Clown79]

2 reasons it could be losing colour, too much light or lack of nutrients.

[A.m.P]

PAR isn't PAR, from what I've read there seems to be quite a few factors determining how well an animal fares under LED lighting (hotspots, spectrum, penetration, coverage, the list is actually quite long), on top of that a fair few hobbyist experiments haven't found any benefits of giving most acro's more than 300.

Just as a heads up, I'd say if it's going transparent-white it's probably bleaching, euphyllia can take allot more light than most give them credit for, but there's likely nothing in your tank which wouldn't be fine with half of what you're blasting it with.

[mcarroll]

Lack of phosphates, specifically.

 

Can you post test results for nitrates and phosphates?

[Kentech5]

3 hours ago, Amphrites said:

PAR isn't PAR, from what I've read there seems to be quite a few factors determining how well an animal fares under LED lighting (hotspots, spectrum, penetration, coverage, the list is actually quite long), on top of that a fair few hobbyist experiments haven't found any benefits of giving most acro's more than 300.

Just as a heads up, I'd say if it's going transparent-white it's probably bleaching, euphyllia can take allot more light than most give them credit for, but there's likely nothing in your tank which wouldn't be fine with half of what you're blasting it with.

Definitely wasn’t intending for it to get as much as it has been. When I tested the spot before I just did it quickly and must not have angled the PAR meter properly. I’d normally be aiming for much lower with euphyllia. I would have turned lights down already (in a way I have since acclimation mode is on) but everything else is quite happy, albeit lower in the tank. The old light was difficult to adjust so I didn’t have easy options for adjusting the light a coral was receiving other than moving it up/down. My cousin has a frag of the same frogspawn which I need to look at to compare color as I’m not sure if it just looks white/transparent under certain lighting. 
 

 

If I can confirm it is getting lighter I think I’ll move it down a bit and probably turn the lights down a good bit. 
 

Quote

2 reasons it could be losing colour, too much light or lack of nutrients.

I’m leaning towards light as I am feeding about every other day and do have some algae growth. Not enough algae to strip the water but it’s present. 

[Kentech5]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Lack of phosphates, specifically.

 

Can you post test results for nitrates and phosphates?

Nitrates are at 8. I need to dig out a phosphate kit. The two other euphyllia makes me wonder if that’s a likely cause but they are different species so could be. 
 

 

I tend to overthink any perceived oddities with coral in the tank but try not to make knee jerk changes. 

[A.m.P]

If your new light has more whites I would be careful, they're known to burn corals if you suddenly ramp them up, LED lights aren't really 1:1 replacements for each other. BRS and ORA just did a video QA where they recommended starting at 20% on most higher-power lights and ramping from there. BRS did one a few months back where they dug up everything they could and found no real importance to or results from exceeding 250-300 PAR on darn-near any acropora, and Tidal gardens recommends less than 100 PAR for essentially-all LPS and some SPS.

Just to give a bit more background and perspective as to where I'm coming from.

[Kentech5]

9 minutes ago, Amphrites said:

If your new light has more whites I would be careful, they're known to burn corals if you suddenly ramp them up, LED lights aren't really 1:1 replacements for each other. BRS and ORA just did a video QA where they recommended starting at 20% on most higher-power lights and ramping from there. BRS did one a few months back where they dug up everything they could and found no real importance to or results from exceeding 250-300 PAR on darn-near any acropora, and Tidal gardens recommends less than 100 PAR for essentially-all LPS and some SPS.

Just to give a bit more background and perspective as to where I'm coming from.

Maybe I need to consider aiming lower on my %s so I don’t cause any new problems. Just don’t want to cause problems by starting too low but I guess that’s less likely than starting too high. 
 

 

 

Good and bad news on the testing front. Found a phosphate Hanna checker in my fish stuff but the reagents expired 4 years ago and the battery is low so I’ll have to replace those and see if I can get ahold of another phosphate test in the meantime. 

[A.m.P]

Too low is always better than too high, many corals won't even show signs they aren't getting enough light as they can simply adapt to it - if you notice things browning out, stretching/reaching up, and slowly wasting away it might be too little light.

https://www.tidalgardens.com/stock-pink-tip-frogspawn.html

[mcarroll]

13 hours ago, Kentech5 said:

Nitrates are at 8. I need to dig out a phosphate kit. The two other euphyllia makes me wonder if that’s a likely cause but they are different species so could be. 
 

 

I tend to overthink any perceived oddities with coral in the tank but try not to make knee jerk changes. 

If nitrates are 8 while phosphates are 0 (needs testing!) that's a definitive problem.   

 

Phosphates are required for photosynthesis.  Without it massive damage happens to the reaction centers where light is turned into chemical energy. 

 

If you add nitrates into a situation where that damage is happening, then your coral's dino's start multiplying -- which multiplies the damage. 

 

Eventually (if conditions don't improve) the coral has to bleach to prevent damage to itself.   

 

As for differences between corals in the tank, remember that none of them are in the same location.  (Duh, right? 😉) 

 

So all of them have different light and different flow scenarios they are living in and all have different coral neighbors than one another.  (Flow is what controls diffusion of nutrients into and waste out of the coral.)

 

That's on top of any physiological differences between them (you mentioned), which IMO is a less likely explanation, but also possible.

 

And to pile on to the lighting questions:

 

Have you always had so much light on the tank?   

 

And where are you measuring the 400 PAR?   If that number is taken near the coral, can you also take a reading at the water surface and tell me what you get?

 

I've had good luck with as little as 14,000 lux on a 19" high tank, even with SPS on the bottom.  That's only about 280 PAR at the surface.

 

IMO I would cut light levels by 50% until you sort this out.  (Just for the short term, not long term.)

[Kentech5]

The lighting hasn’t changed since the tank was started other than me cutting the %’s down yesterday. PAR was about 500 at the surface, not what I had intended but apparently my light was stronger than I anticipated. 

[mcarroll]

You definitely have room for a 40-50% intensity reduction and you'll still have enough light to be considered "peak lighting".   Obviously anything between there and where you are now is an option as well.

[Kentech5]

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You definitely have room for a 40-50% intensity reduction and you'll still have enough light to be considered "peak lighting".   Obviously anything between there and where you are now is an option as well.

I did about a 20% reduction plus its in acclimation mode so its starting lower than that. Looking at the frogspawn today I do see color and honestly Im starting to think this is how it has always looked. Nice and puffy the whole time too. 
 

 

 

Gonna keep watching it and may still move it down to make room for something else up higher anyway. Still gonna test phosphate when I get my hands on a test again just in case. I normally don’t test unless I see something abnormal but I guess this counts. 

[mcarroll]

Check this pic out from Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates:

 

"LP" = Low Phosphates

"HP" = High Phosphates

N = Nitrate

 

Left column is the frag, center column is a tissue sample from the coral, right column is a closeup of the frag's dino's.

 

Good read on the article.

[Kentech5]

Frogspawn still looking OK so good news there. Definitely hasn’t gotten any lighter and still puffs up during the day. I’ve got a new nitrate and phosphate kit coming as well so I can spot check when needed.