Need fast cycle or instant even better

[Tired]

Yeah, I'm gonna be honest: "I'll teach my kid a lesson in a way that's going to cause animals pain, and will probably kill some" is a bad way to teach your kid a lesson. Congrats! You killed something slowly and painfully instead of explaining a thing to your kid. I don't think explaining the nitrate cycle and "this will make the fish very sick and maybe kill them" is a hard thing to do. It's not complicated. I've explained it to kids that age multiple times. 

 

Sure, fish-in cycling works. But since it's not any better than any of the other methods that don't cause something pain, it shouldn't be recommended. Yes,  you physically can fish-in cycle, but you shouldn't. Or, if you must, do a "gentle" cycle. Lots of water changes to keep the ammonia low, to minimize the damage. Much slower, but the tank will cycle. Some people wind up doing this when they buy fish on the LFS' advice and then learn about cycling. 

 

Now, with bacterial additives, it can work fine without harming the fish. But bacterial additives vary in effectiveness, so the most humane thing to do is add the bacteria and TEST that your tank is cycled. Feed for a couple days and see if any ammonia or nitrites show up. If they do, it's a good thing you didn't put a fish in. If they don't, well, no harm in waiting a couple days for a fish. 

 

Considering that we have a good half a dozen possible cycling methods available, and only one of them involves throwing fish in that we know will be damaged and will quite possibly die, I consider it highly irresponsible and outright cruel to pick the method that involves a living animal suffering. It's not the most convenient way (since you still have to feed the fish, like you would with "ghost feeding"), it's not the cheapest way, it's not the quickest way, it's not better in any way except that you have something to look at until it quite possibly dies. It's an option for cycling, yes, just like cyanide-stunning to catch fish for an aquarium is an option. It doesn't need to be mentioned other than an aside of "some people will tell you to do this, but you really shouldn't" when giving an overview of cycling.

 

(before anyone asks: yes, fish feel pain. There've been scientific studies about it. Ammonia burns the gills, and fish in water with ammonia often show 'flashing', which is what fish do when something is irritating or damaging their gills, such as chemical contaminants or parasites. I haven't done a study to specifically determine whether fish feel pain when being slowly poisoned to death by ammonia, but it's a reasonable conclusion to come to.)

[Doc_]

5 hours ago, Tired said:

Yeah, I'm gonna be honest: "I'll teach my kid a lesson in a way that's going to cause animals pain, and will probably kill some" is a bad way to teach your kid a lesson. Congrats! You killed something slowly and painfully instead of explaining a thing to your kid. I don't think explaining the nitrate cycle and "this will make the fish very sick and maybe kill them" is a hard thing to do. It's not complicated. I've explained it to kids that age multiple times. 

 

Sure, fish-in cycling works. But since it's not any better than any of the other methods that don't cause something pain, it shouldn't be recommended. Yes,  you physically can fish-in cycle, but you shouldn't. Or, if you must, do a "gentle" cycle. Lots of water changes to keep the ammonia low, to minimize the damage. Much slower, but the tank will cycle. Some people wind up doing this when they buy fish on the LFS' advice and then learn about cycling. 

 

Now, with bacterial additives, it can work fine without harming the fish. But bacterial additives vary in effectiveness, so the most humane thing to do is add the bacteria and TEST that your tank is cycled. Feed for a couple days and see if any ammonia or nitrites show up. If they do, it's a good thing you didn't put a fish in. If they don't, well, no harm in waiting a couple days for a fish. 

 

Considering that we have a good half a dozen possible cycling methods available, and only one of them involves throwing fish in that we know will be damaged and will quite possibly die, I consider it highly irresponsible and outright cruel to pick the method that involves a living animal suffering. It's not the most convenient way (since you still have to feed the fish, like you would with "ghost feeding"), it's not the cheapest way, it's not the quickest way, it's not better in any way except that you have something to look at until it quite possibly dies. It's an option for cycling, yes, just like cyanide-stunning to catch fish for an aquarium is an option. It doesn't need to be mentioned other than an aside of "some people will tell you to do this, but you really shouldn't" when giving an overview of cycling.

 

(before anyone asks: yes, fish feel pain. There've been scientific studies about it. Ammonia burns the gills, and fish in water with ammonia often show 'flashing', which is what fish do when something is irritating or damaging their gills, such as chemical contaminants or parasites. I haven't done a study to specifically determine whether fish feel pain when being slowly poisoned to death by ammonia, but it's a reasonable conclusion to come to.)

You have the right to your opinion and I knew my example wasn't going to be popular in the slightest, the purpose of saying it was to outline that the reality is it all boils down to choices you make based on what works for you, your intended goal and your personal values. But telling people they can't use methods to achieve a goal that clearly do work just leads to conflicting information and confuses anyone learning.

 

I appreciate your post doesn't make any mention of what you can't do and I'm obviously not directing that at you, if people know they can do X but probably shouldn't for whatever reason then it acknowledges the method works whilst also explaining why it shouldn't be used when there are better methods available. 

 

To be very clear I did use additives (Dr Tims), but based on experience and what I've seen in the past the potential mortality rate even with additives is simply going to be higher than adding the fish to a properly cycled tank, for reference the ammonia level was between 0.1 - 0.2 when the fish died and it's no different than a fish dying from an accident that causes an ammonia swing at a later stage other than I knew it was a possibility ahead of time, I hoped all of the fish would make it but they didn’t and my Son learned why you should cycle a tank.  

 

We make choices all the time that damage people, the planet, plants, animals etc for the sake of convenience, modern living and our own views. I do what I can in my day to day life to minimise these things but the reality is that’s a choice. Not every piece of meat you eat is slaughtered in a humane way, not every animal hunted is taken down with a clean kill and suffers for it. Hell the Shrimp/Prawn you throw into the tank was at one point a living creature that was killed for the shop to sell to you for whatever you deemed to use it for (in this case cycling) we all have a point where the line of acceptance is drawn.

[Tired]

Frankly, it is different. An accidental ammonia swing later is an unexpected thing, but a tank that's known to be unstable is a known. Your son would also have learned why you should cycle a tank if you'd told him. I would hope an 8-year-old can understand that a thing will happen if he's told it will happen. Sure, a demonstration is an effective teacher, but is the slight increase in effectiveness really worth something dying? 

 

And I've never liked that argument of "but other things die in bad ways". It's simply not relevant. We're not talking about farming, we're talking about this particular circumstance of putting an animal in a harmful situation when it's completely unnecessary to do so. Besides- food shrimp are always going to be eaten, whether by a predator or by a human with a net. Farm animals are always going to be eaten (though they should be treated more humanely than they generally are). A fish in a fish store is not always going to die in a to-be-cycled tank. If nobody tried to cycle tanks with fish, no fish would die that way. And maybe "literally nobody" is too much to ask for, but we can have a minimum of people doing it. 

[Doc_]

19 minutes ago, Tired said:

Frankly, it is different. An accidental ammonia swing later is an unexpected thing, but a tank that's known to be unstable is a known. Your son would also have learned why you should cycle a tank if you'd told him. I would hope an 8-year-old can understand that a thing will happen if he's told it will happen. Sure, a demonstration is an effective teacher, but is the slight increase in effectiveness really worth something dying? 

 

And I've never liked that argument of "but other things die in bad ways". It's simply not relevant. We're not talking about farming, we're talking about this particular circumstance of putting an animal in a harmful situation when it's completely unnecessary to do so. Besides- food shrimp are always going to be eaten, whether by a predator or by a human with a net. Farm animals are always going to be eaten (though they should be treated more humanely than they generally are). A fish in a fish store is not always going to die in a to-be-cycled tank. If nobody tried to cycle tanks with fish, no fish would die that way. And maybe "literally nobody" is too much to ask for, but we can have a minimum of people doing it. 

A perfect example of where people differentiate their line, you believe an accidental ammonia swing is an unexpected thing; but my view is that the day you put a fish into a tank you know there is a risk of something going wrong whether it be now or later particularly for someone who's getting started in the hobby. The chances of a new hobbyist not making a mistake that will lead to either poor health of an animal or death at some point early on are very slim. Should they never start because there is a chance the next person who might come to the shop will take better care of the fish long term because of their experience? Should there be a licencing requirement like there is with other animals to control the practice? We as hobbyists say of course not but many would disagree.  

 

There are plenty of people out there that think that the whole concept of allowing amateur hobbyists to keep fish, corals, reptiles etc is morally wrong because it's not the natural way of things. They have their lines and you have your own, who's right and who's wrong will always be up for debate. 

 

What shouldn't be up for debate though are the facts about what can work and what can't. I appreciate I will never change anyones mind on things that should or shouldn't be done and what the best way to do something is, I never expect to but I do think it's important for people starting a hobby to have correct information so they can decide for themselves and all too often people say "You can't do that" based off their opinion on the way something should be done. 

 

 

[karen nation]

8 hours ago, Tired said:

Yeah, I'm gonna be honest: "I'll teach my kid a lesson in a way that's going to cause animals pain, and will probably kill some" is a bad way to teach your kid a lesson. Congrats! You killed something slowly and painfully instead of explaining a thing to your kid. I don't think explaining the nitrate cycle and "this will make the fish very sick and maybe kill them" is a hard thing to do. It's not complicated. I've explained it to kids that age multiple times. 

 

Sure, fish-in cycling works. But since it's not any better than any of the other methods that don't cause something pain, it shouldn't be recommended. Yes,  you physically can fish-in cycle, but you shouldn't. Or, if you must, do a "gentle" cycle. Lots of water changes to keep the ammonia low, to minimize the damage. Much slower, but the tank will cycle. Some people wind up doing this when they buy fish on the LFS' advice and then learn about cycling. 

 

Now, with bacterial additives, it can work fine without harming the fish. But bacterial additives vary in effectiveness, so the most humane thing to do is add the bacteria and TEST that your tank is cycled. Feed for a couple days and see if any ammonia or nitrites show up. If they do, it's a good thing you didn't put a fish in. If they don't, well, no harm in waiting a couple days for a fish. 

 

Considering that we have a good half a dozen possible cycling methods available, and only one of them involves throwing fish in that we know will be damaged and will quite possibly die, I consider it highly irresponsible and outright cruel to pick the method that involves a living animal suffering. It's not the most convenient way (since you still have to feed the fish, like you would with "ghost feeding"), it's not the cheapest way, it's not the quickest way, it's not better in any way except that you have something to look at until it quite possibly dies. It's an option for cycling, yes, just like cyanide-stunning to catch fish for an aquarium is an option. It doesn't need to be mentioned other than an aside of "some people will tell you to do this, but you really shouldn't" when giving an overview of cycling.

 

(before anyone asks: yes, fish feel pain. There've been scientific studies about it. Ammonia burns the gills, and fish in water with ammonia often show 'flashing', which is what fish do when something is irritating or damaging their gills, such as chemical contaminants or parasites. I haven't done a study to specifically determine whether fish feel pain when being slowly poisoned to death by ammonia, but it's a reasonable conclusion to come to.)

I would never ever dream of putting a fish in their without a bacterial starter, inspite of the damsel a lfs tried to sell me and tell  me to do so!  I have watch so  many youtubes of people adding biospia and then a fish and BRS has set up so many tanks doing that and say they have never had problems and everyone seems to trust what they say so I figured it was okay and admist that was going to be my choice but being my son got hospitilized after I filled my tank (that very night) I dint get a chance to do that and man I wish I would have!  I have had 4 things now set me back and could have been a simple process with bacteria nd testing would not have takenmore than a week and I am going on 4 weeks now!

 

Let it run for weeks without testing when son was in hospital and went by my LFS advice and changed water because she said I had high ammonia and nitrates!  I was supposed to keep ammonia t least 5 ppm until nitrates showed using dr Tims ammonia method.  I believe that set me back, then after I changed water my filter broke!  same time!  So new filter now had to start to establish new bacteria!  So I dosed WAY to much ammonia, slip of the hand basically and dr Tis says add 5 drops per gallon so maybe added slightly more and I was at 0.25 ammonia but still high nitrates and nitrites.  Long story short I now have 8 ppm ammonia!

 

I read that may stall my cycle and seemed I was already stalled so guess I need to do another water change!

[karen nation]

2 hours ago, Tired said:

Frankly, it is different. An accidental ammonia swing later is an unexpected thing, but a tank that's known to be unstable is a known. Your son would also have learned why you should cycle a tank if you'd told him. I would hope an 8-year-old can understand that a thing will happen if he's told it will happen. Sure, a demonstration is an effective teacher, but is the slight increase in effectiveness really worth something dying? 

 

And I've never liked that argument of "but other things die in bad ways". It's simply not relevant. We're not talking about farming, we're talking about this particular circumstance of putting an animal in a harmful situation when it's completely unnecessary to do so. Besides- food shrimp are always going to be eaten, whether by a predator or by a human with a net. Farm animals are always going to be eaten (though they should be treated more humanely than they generally are). A fish in a fish store is not always going to die in a to-be-cycled tank. If nobody tried to cycle tanks with fish, no fish would die that way. And maybe "literally nobody" is too much to ask for, but we can have a minimum of people doing it. 

I appreciate everyones advice and wish I would have titled that post differently, like how to cycle and left on the word fast!   I didn't realize it was as easy as googling how to cycle a tank  or I never would have.  Basically very simple if I had not have had the terrible luck, son getting sick and leaving it alone , listening to others wrong advice,  filter breaking! ect  It would have been cycled long ago.  Going on 4 weeks now an another delay or big screw up in my part because truthfully I am getting impatient at this point!  It should never take over a month to cycle a tank in 20 20!  Plus I want to go to frag swap event in 3 weeks...lol

[karen nation]

so another setback and big screw up on my part!  I am embarrassed to even ask because it as if I am not following your advice but I am and I am also going by Dr Tim, who is wrong!  

 

So I added the biospiria and it didnt change my readings which were

ammonia 0.25

nitrite between 2 and 5

 nitrate 20 to 40

I have dr tim ammonia and based on what I have read online and what he is saying I am supposed to dose ammonia to 5 until I see nitrates then dose to 2 until 24 hours it converts nitrites and ammonia to zero.  I have been steady 4 days in a row with these readings and I think a week a go when my lfs it was very similar as well.  She said it was high but I dont think she understands cycling with ammonia, because she instant cycles with Fritz and I remember when I first asked her if she had ammonia she asked "why do I want to add ammonia, ammonia is what i want out of there"!  So she obviously dosnt understand that method which is hard to believe because  she is the owner! 

 

I went to a few coral and fish shops with my family yesterday and a salesperson said I should dose ammonia and thats maybe why I have stalled and Dr Tims says to as well.  So I added ammonia and a tiny slip of the hand basically and also his I believe his instructions are wrong or my test kit is wrong but now my ammonia is 8.0. 

 

So 4th set back now!  Son in hospital so left it for 2 weeks, then changed water by lfs advice and should not have a little over a week ago, then filter breaks and used new filter and media!!!  Now overdosed ammonia!  I should have added half of what he sad then tested!  

 

What now?  Water change?  I have read that over 5 I should change and I have also read that high ammonia can stall.   I wish I could take back what I did so bad or just maybe gave it some food!  I read someone yesterday on a post that had my exact readings and people told her to add some food and she did and a day or 2 later she was cycled?  It will be a month in a few days!  No way in 2020 should it take over a month to cycle a tank!  If I havt had a big drop my tomorrow I am guessing I should change water.  Could that be of any harm or is that the right thing at this point?  I really wanted to get a fish by this weekend and I know this is pushing things but there is the Florida Frag swap on Feb 8TH.  I might be able to get my LFS to hold corals for me though.

[Jmevox]

So with the Dr. Tim's you're supposed to dose it to 2ppm and not to exceed 5.  You should have just left it alone when it was at .25 you were very close to completing the cycle.  Now you're just going to have to wait longer.  Stop with the ammonia.  Forget about it.  Just wait until ammonia and nitrites go down to 0.  Then do a large water change and test again and make sure your nitrates are in the acceptable range.  Then you can add a fish. 

You live in Florida where there are tons of local stores to buy corals or buy corals off locals online so I wouldn't be overly concerned about the frag swap and having your store hold them for you.  Your first corals should be beginner hardy corals like mushrooms, palys/zoas, or something like that which you can buy anywhere. 

 

You should focus on completing the cycle and being able to keep a fish alive and water stable before loading the tank with corals. 

 

[Clown79]

On 1/21/2020 at 5:05 AM, karen nation said:

I would never ever dream of putting a fish in their without a bacterial starter, inspite of the damsel a lfs tried to sell me and tell  me to do so!  I have watch so  many youtubes of people adding biospia and then a fish and BRS has set up so many tanks doing that and say they have never had problems and everyone seems to trust what they say so I figured it was okay and admist that was going to be my choice but being my son got hospitilized after I filled my tank (that very night) I dint get a chance to do that and man I wish I would have!  I have had 4 things now set me back and could have been a simple process with bacteria nd testing would not have takenmore than a week and I am going on 4 weeks now!

 

Let it run for weeks without testing when son was in hospital and went by my LFS advice and changed water because she said I had high ammonia and nitrates!  I was supposed to keep ammonia t least 5 ppm until nitrates showed using dr Tims ammonia method.  I believe that set me back, then after I changed water my filter broke!  same time!  So new filter now had to start to establish new bacteria!  So I dosed WAY to much ammonia, slip of the hand basically and dr Tis says add 5 drops per gallon so maybe added slightly more and I was at 0.25 ammonia but still high nitrates and nitrites.  Long story short I now have 8 ppm ammonia!

 

I read that may stall my cycle and seemed I was already stalled so guess I need to do another water change!

Why would you dose ammonia when there was ammonia present?

 

The purpose of ammonia dosing is to start the cycle with dry rocks when no ammonia is present.

 

Your numbers before dosing dr tim's were completely normal and part of the cycle, if anything your ammonia levels were most likely dropping(processing) as nitrites and nitrate levels were higher.

 

By the end of a cycle people can often see 80 or higher ppm of nitrate, that's why they do 80-100% waterchange.

 

Yes, 8ppm can stall a cycle and will take a lot longer to process.

 

I have to ask this and by no way am I being rude or trying to be mean but why are you doing the opposite to what so many have been advising?

 

[Seadragon]

4 hours ago, karen nation said:

I appreciate everyones advice and wish I would have titled that post differently, like how to cycle and left on the word fast!   I didn't realize it was as easy as googling how to cycle a tank  or I never would have.  Basically very simple if I had not have had the terrible luck, son getting sick and leaving it alone , listening to others wrong advice,  filter breaking! ect  It would have been cycled long ago.  Going on 4 weeks now an another delay or big screw up in my part because truthfully I am getting impatient at this point!  It should never take over a month to cycle a tank in 20 20!  Plus I want to go to frag swap event in 3 weeks...lol

 

It looks like we had similar experiences with Dr Tim's and the ammonia dosing.  I've done that method a long time ago on a freshwater tank and it requires patience, and in my case, 6 weeks to fully complete the Nitrogen cycle assuming that you're following their instructions and are testing your water parameters often so you can see where you're at in the cycle.

 

There is a blessing though that you got to experience that method... and that is exactly it, you gained experience and you will never forget that now.  Now, you have first hand knowledge of what could happen when you do things exactly the way you did it and its a blessing for others when you share that experience.

 

And maybe next time you'll try something different and hopefully it'll turn out way better!  I, myself, I'm quite excited for my next tank and I look forward to taking it slow and enjoying every part of it, including the initial cycling of the tank.  Like I said, I've done the BIO-Spira (+ Coralline algae in a bottle with Nitrifying bacteria + live sand) and added two small clownfish and only had great results.  Once you find what works for you, you stick to it and hopefully share it with others.  But, experiencing some roadblocks along the way only makes you stronger the next time you do it.  So stick in there, you got this!

[Tamberav]

You wish you had added fish but then you had to care for your son and the filter broke, sounds like it was good you didn't add fish.......... also you added biospira and the tank didn't instantly cycle by your tests 😉 

 

I would not be in a hurry to rush off to a frag swap. That is exactly what you don't want to do. They are common and there will be more. A frag swap will have so many things, most of which you probably won't know how to care for or identify yet. Plus the last few frag swaps I went to did not even have beginner corals, they had more of the high roller $$$ torches, bounce shrooms, acro's and so on. 

 

You need patience for this hobby, there is a lot to learn about the care for corals. This hobby has a ton of turn over, people get in it, get excited, and two years later they are out with a skinnier wallet. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Clown79]

9 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

You wish you had added fish but then you had to care for your son and the filter broke, sounds like it was good you didn't add fish.......... also you added biospira and the tank didn't instantly cycle by your tests 😉 

 

I would not be in a hurry to rush off to a frag swap. That is exactly what you don't want to do. They are common and there will be more. A frag swap will have so many things, most of which you probably won't know how to care for or identify yet. Plus the last few frag swaps I went to did not even have beginner corals, they had more of the high roller $$$ torches, bounce shrooms, acro's and so on. 

 

You need patience for this hobby, there is a lot to learn about the care for corals. This hobby has a ton of turn over, people get in it, get excited, and two years later they are out with a skinnier wallet. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A+++

 

You notice a lot of ppl barely make it to the 6 mnth mark and its because of the dedication required, the knowledge required, and most especially, the patience.

 

 

 

 

[Tired]

Again, STOP. Messing with the cycle will not make it go faster. 

 

Do water changes until your ammonia is under 5, then LEAVE IT. Do not add ANYTHING (except maybe some mature live rock) until your cycle is over. STOP messing with it. Your cycle should be over relatively soon, but MUST be left to its own devices. If you keep messing with it, it is going to take longer. 

 

It can take over a month to cycle a tank because bacteria have to establish and grow. If you start a tank with minimal to no bacteria, it will take time. For an instant cycle, you need to add a lot of very mature live rock and start from there. If you do pretty much anything else, it's going to take time. It's not a matter of tech, it's a matter of nature. 

 

Also, your tank isn't going to be mature for over a year. You're going to get surges of pest algae. Please do not deal with those the way you've been cycling this tank. You need to be PATIENT. If you want fast, you're in the wrong hobby.

[Clown79]

52 minutes ago, Tired said:

Again, STOP. Messing with the cycle will not make it go faster. 

 

Do water changes until your ammonia is under 5, then LEAVE IT. Do not add ANYTHING (except maybe some mature live rock) until your cycle is over. STOP messing with it. Your cycle should be over relatively soon, but MUST be left to its own devices. If you keep messing with it, it is going to take longer. 

 

It can take over a month to cycle a tank because bacteria have to establish and grow. If you start a tank with minimal to no bacteria, it will take time. For an instant cycle, you need to add a lot of very mature live rock and start from there. If you do pretty much anything else, it's going to take time. It's not a matter of tech, it's a matter of nature. 

 

Also, your tank isn't going to be mature for over a year. You're going to get surges of pest algae. Please do not deal with those the way you've been cycling this tank. You need to be PATIENT. If you want fast, you're in the wrong hobby.

With the results of the tests, looked like ammonia was almost processed as nitrites and nitrates were high.

 

It was only a matter of days to weeks to be over.

 

[Jmevox]

8 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

With the results of the tests, looked like ammonia was almost processed as nitrites and nitrates were high.

 

It was only a matter of days to weeks to be over.

 

We all said it was almost over and not to do anything lol.......advice has been ignored since the beginning

[mitten_reef]

On 1/21/2020 at 6:07 AM, karen nation said:

No way in 2020 should it take over a month to cycle a tank! 

this is an ABSOLUTELY WRONG ATTITUDE to be in this hobby.  you'll find yourself trying to solve many - yes, MANY - more issues as the tank matures.  AND many of those follow-up issues have a lot less scientifically-proven basis than tank cycling.  Imagine once you throw in lighting type, lighting schedule, nutrients, feeding schedule, dosings, parameter testings, fish, inverst, corals, etc in there, no two tanks will ever be alike - and troubleshooting becomes a lot more of a guessing game than simply cycling an empty tank. 

 

If you can't stand the length of time or the process it takes to cycle a tank, you should probably sell everything and get out now before you got too deep.  

[Clown79]

15 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

this is an ABSOLUTELY WRONG ATTITUDE to be in this hobby.  you'll find yourself trying to solve many - yes, MANY - more issues as the tank matures.  AND many of those follow-up issues have a lot less scientifically-proven basis than tank cycling.  Imagine once you throw in lighting type, lighting schedule, nutrients, feeding schedule, dosings, parameter testings, fish, inverst, corals, etc in there, no two tanks will ever be alike - and troubleshooting becomes a lot more of a guessing game than simply cycling an empty tank. 

 

If you can't stand the length of time or the process it takes to cycle a tank, you should probably sell everything and get out now before you got too deep.  

This is definitely a "hobby" that requires a lot of knowledge and patience.

 

Over thinking, searching for the easy way, or searching for the answer you want turns out to be the bumpy road to frustration, loss, crashes, and shut down.

 

We as hobbyists have nothing to gain by the advice we give and we gave sound advice. Because we all have been through this if not once but numerous times.

Unfortunately LFS advice isn't always in a hobbyists best interest because they profit from your lack of understanding and patience.

 

 

Tank is cycling on it's own, add biospira and  leave it alone and research during this time. Do waterchange when ammonia and nitrite is 0.

Best advice and given by many here.

 

unfortunately you can lead ppl to water but you can't make them drink.

[Opotter]

The folks who are on this forum giving you advice, are some of the best. They have tanks that many of us consider dream/goals tanks.  Take some time and peruse their threads/journals.  Appreciate the depth of knowledge of the folks who are offering wisdom.  Slow down, enjoy the process, turn your want/desire for things to go faster into something productive, like obsessing over learning about the corals/fish you want to stock, learning about testing/dosing, etc.  The cycling period is a great time to learn and study.  Then when it’s over, you have a plan in place.

[karen nation]

On 1/21/2020 at 8:49 AM, Jmevox said:

So with the Dr. Tim's you're supposed to dose it to 2ppm and not to exceed 5.  You should have just left it alone when it was at .25 you were very close to completing the cycle.  Now you're just going to have to wait longer.  Stop with the ammonia.  Forget about it.  Just wait until ammonia and nitrites go down to 0.  Then do a large water change and test again and make sure your nitrates are in the acceptable range.  Then you can add a fish. 

You live in Florida where there are tons of local stores to buy corals or buy corals off locals online so I wouldn't be overly concerned about the frag swap and having your store hold them for you.  Your first corals should be beginner hardy corals like mushrooms, palys/zoas, or something like that which you can buy anywhere. 

 

You should focus on completing the cycle and being able to keep a fish alive and water stable before loading the tank with corals. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Opotter said:

The folks who are on this forum giving you advice, are some of the best. They have tanks that many of us consider dream/goals tanks.  Take some time and peruse their threads/journals.  Appreciate the depth of knowledge of the folks who are offering wisdom.  Slow down, enjoy the process, turn your want/desire for things to go faster into something productive, like obsessing over learning about the corals/fish you want to stock, learning about testing/dosing, etc.  The cycling period is a great time to learn and study.  Then when it’s over, you have a plan in place.

 

On 1/21/2020 at 10:07 AM, Clown79 said:

Why would you dose ammonia when there was ammonia present?

 

The purpose of ammonia dosing is to start the cycle with dry rocks when no ammonia is present.

 

Your numbers before dosing dr tim's were completely normal and part of the cycle, if anything your ammonia levels were most likely dropping(processing) as nitrites and nitrate levels were higher.

 

By the end of a cycle people can often see 80 or higher ppm of nitrate, that's why they do 80-100% waterchange.

 

Yes, 8ppm can stall a cycle and will take a lot longer to process.

 

I have to ask this and by no way am I being rude or trying to be mean but why are you doing the opposite to what so many have been advising?

 

 I dont men to sound rude either but I dont think many people on her know a thing in the world about fishless cycle with ammonia. If yall did then everyone would be encouraging me to dose to 2! I dont get what yall do to cycle a tank.  The post was should I change water anyway. 0.25 and still having a high nitrates, nitrites  and ammonia is not right and not at all where I want to be.  Every time I leave a post I jump the gun then go and research for hours and then find out everyone is giving bad advise and I should have did what the internet and all the Professionals are telling me. You ask why and thats the answer!  Yall are telling me excatly the oposite of what the internet pro are saying! 

 

If I had not of changed my water the first time. (bad advise)  I would have been cycled by now but that lady felt like all you guys that I just want zero amonia.  Ammonia is what cycles it.  It also gives you a stronger cycle after you are ready to add fish.  The more amonia you dosed with the stronger cycle will be because your bbwas able to convert from 2 down to zero in 24 hours. If your bb can do that than you have a strong cycle.  If you dont believe me.  Google fishless cycling with ammonia.  It says dose with amonia until you get 5ppm and try to maintain at 5 until nitrite then dose everyday, if ya have to but maintain at 2 ppm, test daily, and when you can convert ammonia  to zero and nitrites in 24 hours you are cycled!   Like I said I am convinced I did the right thing, being professionals say and I mean I read lots of online articles, b4 and after I dosed.  So I know It was right, even though everyone on here told me not to! My question to yall was should I do a water change!    I did a water change last night and I am at 2ppm and thats where I want to be!  Didnt change nitrites or nitrates at all but I be willing to bet I will be cycled by this weeknd, probably sooner!  0.25...slow boat to china and a weak cycle.. No thanks! Yeah, eventually I would have got there but take forever and weak like I said. Why would I want to wait longer and have a weak cycle and only be able to add one fish when I can add 2 and its best to add my clownfish as a pair!

 

 

So much bad advise it crazy!  The LFS lady, I found out it her son that owns not her so she did a crash course and knows when people come in and she tests water she knows their cycled if Its zero and you need amonia to get going!  That seems be be all you guys beliefs but maybe , yall are old school or just dont know but the INTERNET My bottle of DR Tim and the other LFS told me to dose to 2ppm, when I sad dr Tim is wrong I meant by the amount of drops he told me to add and thats why I ended up at 8ppm.  Not anymore though!  Perfect now! Except for nitites and trates and I was taking the slow boat to china at 0.25-- 5 days in a row and no change because the lfs told me to do the water change when I had amonia!  She said it was high and i had not started my on testing yet and took her for her word but I believe by the chart I was at 4 so changing water then set me back to 0.25 and nothing was happening!  I have had nitrates a long time and should have been cycled weeks ago!  Its been almost a month with live sand and infused rock. Bad advice is whY i'm not and leaving unattended when son was sick.  

One more thing, my cycle wasnt stalled either.  Numbers the exact same, also I read later by dr Tim that you cant kill bactera, without busting the cell membrane wall.   As soon as you lower your amoin under 5 things will resume right where they were. 

[ECLS Reefer]

42 minutes ago, karen nation said:

 

 

 I dont men to sound rude either but I dont think many people on her know a thing in the world about fishless cycle with ammonia. If yall did then everyone would be encouraging me to dose to 2! I dont get what yall do to cycle a tank.  The post was should I change water anyway. 0.25 and still having a high nitrates, nitrites  and ammonia is not right and not at all where I want to be.  Every time I leave a post I jump the gun then go and research for hours and then find out everyone is giving bad advise and I should have did what the internet and all the Professionals are telling me. You ask why and thats the answer!  Yall are telling me excatly the oposite of what the internet pro are saying! 

 

If I had not of changed my water the first time. (bad advise)  I would have been cycled by now but that lady felt like all you guys that I just want zero amonia.  Ammonia is what cycles it.  It also gives you a stronger cycle after you are ready to add fish.  The more amonia you dosed with the stronger cycle will be because your bbwas able to convert from 2 down to zero in 24 hours. If your bb can do that than you have a strong cycle.  If you dont believe me.  Google fishless cycling with ammonia.  It says dose with amonia until you get 5ppm and try to maintain at 5 until nitrite then dose everyday, if ya have to but maintain at 2 ppm, test daily, and when you can convert ammonia  to zero and nitrites in 24 hours you are cycled!   Like I said I am convinced I did the right thing, being professionals say and I mean I read lots of online articles, b4 and after I dosed.  So I know It was right, even though everyone on here told me not to! My question to yall was should I do a water change!    I did a water change last night and I am at 2ppm and thats where I want to be!  Didnt change nitrites or nitrates at all but I be willing to bet I will be cycled by this weeknd, probably sooner!  0.25...slow boat to china and a weak cycle.. No thanks! Yeah, eventually I would have got there but take forever and weak like I said. Why would I want to wait longer and have a weak cycle and only be able to add one fish when I can add 2 and its best to add my clownfish as a pair!

 

 

So much bad advise it crazy!  The LFS lady, I found out it her son that owns not her so she did a crash course and knows when people come in and she tests water she knows their cycled if Its zero and you need amonia to get going!  That seems be be all you guys beliefs but maybe , yall are old school or just dont know but the INTERNET My bottle of DR Tim and the other LFS told me to dose to 2ppm, when I sad dr Tim is wrong I meant by the amount of drops he told me to add and thats why I ended up at 8ppm.  Not anymore though!  Perfect now! Except for nitites and trates and I was taking the slow boat to china at 0.25-- 5 days in a row and no change because the lfs told me to do the water change when I had amonia!  She said it was high and i had not started my on testing yet and took her for her word but I believe by the chart I was at 4 so changing water then set me back to 0.25 and nothing was happening!  I have had nitrates a long time and should have been cycled weeks ago!  Its been almost a month with live sand and infused rock. Bad advice is whY i'm not and leaving unattended when son was sick.  

One more thing, my cycle wasnt stalled either.  Numbers the exact same, also I read later by dr Tim that you cant kill bactera, without busting the cell membrane wall.   As soon as you lower your amoin under 5 things will resume right where they were. 

😳 I read this as you just told all the wisest advisers in there that they all give bad advice... 

 

[karen nation]

I am so confused and I want to gain friendships and turn to you guys for advice but it seems I keep jumping the gun.  My first thought is to go in here and ask and then I go research and find my answers there from professionals, from the internet.   Articles on cycling ect.. and I do what they say.  I dont know if yall are just "old school" or what. 

 

From the beginning everyone said pick and method and follow it!  That is what I am doing.  I know there are many ways to cycle a tank and there is seeding with ammonia and just letting it do its thing like it was doin...very very slowly, then there is seeding it with ammonia and continuous ammonia dosing until you can convert 2 ppm in 24 hours.  That is  the fastest and not to mention the best and only way to get a strong cycle going. !  I mean it will be a month in 2 days but continuous dosing is the method used most nowadays or adding beneficial bacteria then fish.   I read so many articles on that.  Not only is it faster but it is a stronger cycle. Shouldnt take more than a week if done right. I want to add 2 baby clown fish..together as a pair so I of course I want a strong cycle  Does this not make sense but If your bb can convert 2 ppm overnight than you have a strong cycle or bb.  Much stronger than converting 0.25. of ammonia!!!   I also read that many times! 

 

My set backs along the way have been from bad advice combined with me not testing and leaving for about 2 1/2 weeks. My ammonia levels probably were off the charts. Those weeks!  I started with infused rock and live sand. The LFS saw ammonia and I didnt know much at the time but she was more than likely given crash course by her son who is the owner and told to test water and if you see ammonia than not cycled.  If you see anything above may be 2 ppm, advice to change water!  Thats crazy advise and thats about the same color I got today at 2 ppm!   

 

I am adding  a link, the first thing that popped up when I googled fishless cycle with ammonia I suggest you guys do the same, google this and read an article,than maybe you will say I did the right thing!   The new way and directions from my Dr tims ammonia says dose 10 drops per gallon, until your ammonia is at 5 ppm, keep doing that everyday!!!  Until you see nitrates, or trites.  Then counue dosing everyday and checking to keep at 2 ppm.  Test daily and when you test and get a reading of 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites you are cycled!  Change water to clear any nitrates.  So thats what I decide to do!  I cant for the life of me understand why you all are saying that was the wrong thing unless you are old school and like I sad just want me to keep waiting and waiting, while numbers werent changing!  5 days in a row, same numbers.  Off wack numbers to because once I started making nitrates my nitrite spike should be over!  It wasnt! I believe that was from stalling cycle with high ammonia when I left it alone but it was at a safe level when she said change water.  You guys did say not to change, except one person.  cant remember who said only if its over 5ppm!  I dont know why I dint test it before I changed it!  I hadn't begun testing yet and I guess I just took her for her word and had bought the water and all but could have saved it.  If I know then what I know now I wouldnt have!  After I am cycled I  plan on helping others because I have made many mistakes along the way but I sure do know alot now, so I am going to look for newbie posts and help them!  I feel like a pro now...lol Even though yall dont agree but I bet I will be cycled by weekend!  LOL Wouldnt have been if I had not of dosed I dont believe and If I was it would be a wimpy cycle and more than likely followed by a crash! 

 

I know dosing was the right thing to do but getting it to 800 wasnt!  I dont think this stalled me for more than a day though!  Dr Tim says you cant destroy bb without breaking through the membrane wall, you can only stall a cycle than, it will pick back up!  Although I have read conflicting info on that!  I only hope he is right!  When I said he was wrong I meant to add 10 drops per gallon!  Way off!  I did actually dose a little more to though.  I am glad I did dose, only regret was to much but I iwll have s stronger cycle and more than likely pick up where I left off at a much faster rate.  I hope no hard feeling but had to do what I had to do!  LOL I know I iwll have many more questions along the way, green hair algae, diatoms ect, so i will continue to seek advice and hope you will offer it up , but Like I said to many articles telling me differently, and thats why they sell ammonia kits as well so this is the new way!  Not just a one time dose!  Not to mention I have had high nitrites, nitrates for weeks, possibly longer , so obviously things werent going right and needed a boost!   Thanks for all your help and i hope to be posting pics soon!

 

My number are now 2.0 amonia and nitites smae.  I think it was 

[karen nation]

43 minutes ago, Dirté Sanchez said:

😳 I read this as you just told all the wisest advisers in there that they all give bad advice... 

 

I said the lfs lady gave bad advise. 

[karen nation]

forgot to copy.  I will try to download an article saying to keep at 2 ppm

sing Pure Ammonia to Cycle the Aquarium

After the tank has been set up, add five drops of ammonia per ten gallons into the water on a daily basis. Ammonia will rise to five ppm and higher. As soon as nitrites are measurable, reduce the ammonia input to three drops per day. 

 

 

 This is a copy and paste, and doesn't cover much in a few sentences, but you can see where it says keep dosing.  I Know you guys were trying to help and I appreciate it and I know I would have eventually got there but wanted to speed up and and most of all a strong cycle, sorry if I stepped on any toes!     I googled fishless cycle with ammonia and this is what popped up without clicking  any links.  I wish I could download an article and attach.  I am kind of illiterate about that, so dont think I can and hubby is asleep.  Its 1:19 in florida.  All my post have been late in the am as I am up researching all night for weeks as he sleeps!  I am one tired lady...LOL .  I iwll attach one tomorrow, beacuse there are so many...Drtims.com as well and I used his ammonia and method

[karen nation]

13 hours ago, Clown79 said:

This is definitely a "hobby" that requires a lot of knowledge and patience.

 

Over thinking, searching for the easy way, or searching for the answer you want turns out to be the bumpy road to frustration, loss, crashes, and shut down.

 

We as hobbyists have nothing to gain by the advice we give and we gave sound advice. Because we all have been through this if not once but numerous times.

Unfortunately LFS advice isn't always in a hobbyists best interest because they profit from your lack of understanding and patience.

 

 

Tank is cycling on it's own, add biospira and  leave it alone and research during this time. Do waterchange when ammonia and nitrite is 0.

Best advice and given by many here.

 

unfortunately you can lead ppl to water but you can't make them drink.

Yep, I was only getting impatient beause this has been going on a few days from a month with live sand and infused water.  In 2020 its should take this long.  I am not an impatient person, normally.  mY main reason is I want a strong cycle.  I hope I dont run into all these problems and If I can convert 2.0  ppm ammonia overnight thats a much stronger cycle than taking weeks to convert 0.25, much more BB.  See I am learning..lol Thanks for your advice and patience with me...lol

[kimberbee]

The only surefire way to get a "fast" cycle is to use a good amount of live rock - live, wet, already has established bacteria on it live rock. 

 

You did not do that. You will not have a fast cycle. Point. Blank. Period. 

 

Most people in your position should expect a 4-8 week cycle time. Regardless of bacteria additives, live sand, infused (?) whatever, dead shrimp, or ammonia... 

 

How do I start my tanks: fill with sand, rock, saltwater. Add bottled bacteria. Sprinkle in fish food every few days. Leave it alone for a month. Easy peasy, no worries, simple. 

 

You state you spend so much time doing research, yet the NUMBER ONE thing that most people will tell you: you need to have patience in this hobby. 

 

So go ahead and add whatever (bacteria, ammonia, dead shrimp...) you want... but then leave the tank alone for a week. Check the parameters, and then go from there...