Need fast cycle or instant even better

[Jmevox]

Glad to hear you are slowing down.  I wasn't trying to be harsh, just wanted you to understand you can't add a ton of corals immediately and be successful.  If you could, we would all be doing it and I think a lot more people would have reef tanks in their house 

[Poison Dart Frog]

I added a fish right after biospira on my last setup. It was fine but in my opinion not ready for corals yet. I went through a heavy diatom stage a few weeks later but it's been good ever since and actually mostly algae free compared to my first tank which was set up using live rock and patience. 

[Seadragon]

9 minutes ago, Poison Dart Frog said:

I added a fish right after biospira on my last setup. It was fine but in my opinion not ready for corals yet. I went through a heavy diatom stage a few weeks later but it's been good ever since and actually mostly algae free compared to my first tank which was set up using live rock and patience. 

 

I actually do something very similar.  I add Instant Ocean BIO-Spira + additional Nitrifying Bacteria that is found in Pink Coralline Algae in a Bottle + additional Nitrifying Bacteria that is found in Purple Coralline Algae in a Bottle + Nature's Ocean No.0 Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Live Sand and added two small Ocellaris Clownfish.  These original two Ocellaris Clownfish are alive and much larger now in my Office Nano Reef.

 

I tested the water parameters daily until I was satisfied that the Nitrogen cycle was complete, and then started slowly adding invertebrates.  I added the Cleaner Shrimp last just to be extra safe.

[Tamberav]

Matrix does the same/similar thing as your rock. I personally wouldn't bother spending money on it. You can always add stuff later. Right now we have no idea what your tank needs as every tank is different. If a person could just copycat someone else and have the same results, that would be easy. 

[karen nation]

So I called around some fish store today looking for dr tims ammonia and not one store near me carries it and they couldnt understand why I would want to add amonia!  they said ammonia is what I want to get rid off! I spoke to the owner at one.  Fishshops absolutely do not believe in cycling! They don't when they start their tanks. Two places told me to use fritzyne9 bacteria starter then add one or two fish, if I started with rodi water which I did.  So overwhelmingly on here no one does that so I said to myself I am going to just order the dr tims. Wont be her until friday though At least that has  dropper and instructions

 

I have watched bfs videos series "52 weeks of reefing" on starting a new tank.  He said same thing!  I already new he did from a video short but was trying to sell a kit that had biospiria in it.  Someone on here suggest i watch BFS as well that they have good advice.  Thats a fish shop too basically.  They said they never lost a fish with that method!  A few weeks back I researched the top bacteria starter and number 1 was biospira followed by dr Tims and I recall the article saying chance of fish loss.  Maybe depending on what fish you use.  Everyone says clowns are hardy and that's what I want.  Anyway,  After talking 2 3 stores today, i almost wished I had not of ordered the dr tims, but so overwhelmingly on here everyone agrees to cycle, and not with a fish!  I dont get these shops.  Are they just trying to sell there products I guess!

 

BFS went on to say the completed cycle could take months after the addition of fish, and to keep lights of for months, and New tanks usually go through an ugly stage in that time frame and to add a cleaning type of bacteria called Microbacter clean, or Vibrant.  Soo sooo much to learn!  

[banasophia]

36 minutes ago, karen nation said:

So I called around some fish store today looking for dr tims ammonia and not one store near me carries it and they couldnt understand why I would want to add amonia!  they said ammonia is what I want to get rid off! I spoke to the owner at one.  Fishshops absolutely do not believe in cycling! They don't when they start their tanks. Two places told me to use fritzyne9 bacteria starter then add one or two fish, if I started with rodi water which I did.  So overwhelmingly on here no one does that so I said to myself I am going to just order the dr tims. Wont be her until friday though At least that has  dropper and instructions

 

I have watched bfs videos series "52 weeks of reefing" on starting a new tank.  He said same thing!  I already new he did from a video short but was trying to sell a kit that had biospiria in it.  Someone on here suggest i watch BFS as well that they have good advice.  Thats a fish shop too basically.  They said they never lost a fish with that method!  A few weeks back I researched the top bacteria starter and number 1 was biospira followed by dr Tims and I recall the article saying chance of fish loss.  Maybe depending on what fish you use.  Everyone says clowns are hardy and that's what I want.  Anyway,  After talking 2 3 stores today, i almost wished I had not of ordered the dr tims, but so overwhelmingly on here everyone agrees to cycle, and not with a fish!  I dont get these shops.  Are they just trying to sell there products I guess!

 

BFS went on to say the completed cycle could take months after the addition of fish, and to keep lights of for months, and New tanks usually go through an ugly stage in that time frame and to add a cleaning type of bacteria called Microbacter clean, or Vibrant.  Soo sooo much to learn!  

Hi, so you ordered the BioSpira and the ammonia... let’s go with that method! Lots of methods work. Best to settle on a plan and then just take it one step at a time. 
 

Are you able to post a pic of your tank and rock? If so that would be great, but if not no worries. I’m going to bed now but I’ll be around tomorrow. 

[Clown79]

9 hours ago, karen nation said:

So I called around some fish store today looking for dr tims ammonia and not one store near me carries it and they couldnt understand why I would want to add amonia!  they said ammonia is what I want to get rid off! I spoke to the owner at one.  Fishshops absolutely do not believe in cycling! They don't when they start their tanks. Two places told me to use fritzyne9 bacteria starter then add one or two fish, if I started with rodi water which I did.  So overwhelmingly on here no one does that so I said to myself I am going to just order the dr tims. Wont be her until friday though At least that has  dropper and instructions

 

I have watched bfs videos series "52 weeks of reefing" on starting a new tank.  He said same thing!  I already new he did from a video short but was trying to sell a kit that had biospiria in it.  Someone on here suggest i watch BFS as well that they have good advice.  Thats a fish shop too basically.  They said they never lost a fish with that method!  A few weeks back I researched the top bacteria starter and number 1 was biospira followed by dr Tims and I recall the article saying chance of fish loss.  Maybe depending on what fish you use.  Everyone says clowns are hardy and that's what I want.  Anyway,  After talking 2 3 stores today, i almost wished I had not of ordered the dr tims, but so overwhelmingly on here everyone agrees to cycle, and not with a fish!  I dont get these shops.  Are they just trying to sell there products I guess!

 

BFS went on to say the completed cycle could take months after the addition of fish, and to keep lights of for months, and New tanks usually go through an ugly stage in that time frame and to add a cleaning type of bacteria called Microbacter clean, or Vibrant.  Soo sooo much to learn!  

Stores are a business and their best interest is in selling and making money- that's why they don't advise what hobbyists do. 

 

They are not educators.

 

Brs do provide good info but once again, I always consider the fact they are a business....

 

 

If you go on forums, the vast majority will advise proper cycling and for a multitude of reasons.

 

 

Like @Tamberav said- no 2 tanks are the same and what worked for one doesn't always work for another.

 

Also always take into regard the issues that one hobbyist ends up dealing with vs another- some of these issues can be avoided. 

 

Highly recommend reading sticky threads for beginners. There is a multitude to learn and cycling isn't the hard part.

 

Reading through member journals and TOTM's can really help as well 

 

 

The end result:

 

dry rock cycling requires a food source which is the ammonia dosing because dry rock has nothing on it to produce ammonia which is what starts the nitrogen cycle.

 

Liverock from a vat of SW in store- will cycle on it's own. Needs no ammonia.

 

Established live rock from a tank full of life - needs no cycling, its cycled.

 

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

On 12/31/2019 at 3:44 AM, karen nation said:

Fishshops absolutely do not believe in cycling!

Starting tanks the fast way with ammonia or dead shrimp are very internet-oriented methods. 

 

Which is to say both methods are modern and popular, but they are not better.

 

 

In fact, there's nothing in particular to recommend either method over the old way of just taking your time at the beginning and starting small.

 

But now we're all The Internet Generation and we can't wait for anything.  So ammonia and rotten meat are the two popular ways to start a cycle.  🙄

 

For the record, even Dr Tim doesn't say those methods are better than the old way.   Again, all they are is new and popular thanks to the internet.  They are not better.

 

If you want an instant cycle (and I'm repeating myself) you have to use something like Instant Ocean Bio Spira that was made for that purpose.  I believe Dr Tim's has a parallel product for the same purpose.  If you use it wrong (ie don't follow the directions), then you're on your own....which is pointless when A) you have a good product in-hand and B) you have other options.  Either follow the directions on the product or choose a more suitable product.

 

On 12/31/2019 at 3:44 AM, karen nation said:

They said they never lost a fish

You're aware of the nature of fish stories, right?

 
Beware of trying to learn from videos or much of anywhere else online if you haven't been though a good book or even a few.

 

Folks that were following guidance from the first marine aquarium handbook 160 years ago got about the same results (or better) as newbs get following advice on the internet.

 

Yes, folks back in the 1860's had just as good of luck with tanks as newbs following internet advice in 2020.

 

(Check it out for yourself here:  https://archive.org/details/handbooktomarine00goss_1/page/n6)

 

Google for a copy of Martin Moe's books on PDF if cost is an issue....you can get used paper backs for aroud $5 or even less.......don't avoid reading a book or two though.

[Seadragon]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

But now we're all The Internet Generation and we can't wait for anything.  So ammonia and rotten meat are the two popular ways to start a cycle.  🙄

 

And I always thought Ammonia and Rotten Meat was the slow way to complete the Nitrogen Cycle since they may not be using Starter Bacteria.

 

I already mentioned it before, but I use Instant Ocean BIO-Spira + additional Nitrifying bacteria from two other sources + Live Sand and I added my two small Ocellaris Clownfish immediately (they're still healthy and alive today) and I didn't have to wait at all, it was instant gratification.

 

In my opinion, those that really push hard for Ammonia and Rotten Meat do not like the idea of adding fish immediately after adding Nitrifying bacteria.  It's more of a vocal PETA mentality rather than the Internet Generation.  To me, the Internet Generation is just everyone expressing their opinions and having vast amounts of information at our finger tips rather than 3 books on the shelf and no one to talk to.

[Tired]

There's always, of course, a slight compromise. Add your bacteria in some way, then add ammonia or rotting material. Just for a day. Test if the ammonia is still present. If there's nitrates but no nitrites or ammonia, there you go, you're cycled and you've confirmed it. Which is, IMO, the responsible thing to do before adding anything with a brain. Add something that should produce ammonia, then confirm, either via chemical testing or the presence of healthy, unbothered sessile inverts (things without brains), that the tank is cycled. Not the best plan to add something capable of feeling pain without being as sure as possible that there's no pain for it to feel.

Frankly, I don't think there's anything wrong with a fast cycle, IF IT WORKS. Nothing wrong with a fast anything if it does the job just as well. There's value in patience, and some things can't be rushed, but something going fast doesn't automatically mean it's bad. Just like it going slow doesn't automatically mean it's good. My tank was cycled instantly, because I used established live rock. It's perfectly well cycled, enough that I had zoanthids in it from day one (that came in on the rock), open pretty much right off the bat. But someone could try to cycle their tank by adding just ammonia and no source of bacteria, and could fail entirely. Sometimes the requisite bacteria make their way in regardless, and sometimes they don't. 

 

If the PETA type had their way, no one would keep fish. Animal rights activists don't want there to be pets at all. PETA isn't actually animal rights, they just push animal rights views so people see them as a charity and donate to them- their leaders are all in it for profit, not anything else. Animal rights people aren't useful in any discussion. Animal welfare people, the sort who push for reasonable anti-cruelty laws and proper education before buying pets, are generally good to listen to. 

Basically, animal rights people are the ones who say that keeping any fish in an aquarium is cruel, animal welfare are the people who say things like "let's not put an adult tang in a 20gal" or "don't do fish-in cycles". 

 

There are pros and cons to the internet. The big con is the flood of information, with no way to tell what's useful. The pro is, well, nearly that. Books are all well and good, but they can be outdated by the time they're published (since publishing can take years), and they are by nature very limited. Great for the basics that don't change, but not so good for the most up-to-date information on equipment and tricky corals. And if I have a weird problem, or just something that the author didn't think to cover, I'm out of luck. I'd much rather be able to go online and look for people who've had this same problem, either by googling or by asking. 

For example, I have a starlet coral that came in on my live rock. I know what it is because I was able to look it up. I've read a couple of reefkeeping books, and they don't tell me what hitchhikers come in on certain types of rock. I'm sure some do, but if I didn't have that book, I'd be out of luck as to what this was. I also wouldn't know how to care for it. Now I do. I know where to place it in the tank, and I can come on here and ask things like "how aggressive is this" that I didn't find an answer for. 

Granted, there's trial and error, but that's not preferable with living things. Especially not (though this isn't one) things capable of feeling pain. 

It's all a matter of being able to sort through the data and find the good stuff. 

[Seadragon]

1 hour ago, Tired said:

Frankly, I don't think there's anything wrong with a fast cycle, IF IT WORKS. Nothing wrong with a fast anything if it does the job just as well.

Exactly.  The problem I’m seeing with new hobbyists and sometimes even “veteran” ones is what they do that not only causes their pets pain, but inevitably kills them in the end.  To me, that’s the real problem.

 

Things like:

• Adding fish and/or corals without even adding starter bacteria or live rock.
• Adding too much too quickly.
• Overstocking too many fish.
• Having too high of a bio-load.
• Having oversized fish for their tank. (Imagine someone getting a Blue Tang for a Nano Reef tank and not rehoming it later.)
• Adding animals they do not know how to care for.
• Poor acclimation.
• Poor shipping.
• Not dosing when needed.
• Not buying proper equipment when needed.
• Not removing pests when it becomes a problem. 🐛 

🙂

[Tamberav]

I add biospira for 🐛 to keep them alive when recieving new live rock 😁 don't want my wormies to get ammonia poisoning.

 

😃 😍🐛

[Snow_Phoenix]

14 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I add biospira for 🐛 to keep them alive when recieving new live rock 😁 don't want my wormies to get ammonia poisoning.

 

😃 😍🐛

I actually love the amount of 'life' that comes in with LRs. And some of the hitchikers are seriously cool - especially the microbrittles, tiny duster worms and sponges.

[banasophia]

37 minutes ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

I actually love the amount of 'life' that comes in with LRs. And some of the hitchikers are seriously cool - especially the microbrittles, tiny duster worms and sponges.

Not me, especially when I was new, but even still!! I have no interest whatsoever in dealing with unwanted hitchhikers. CaribSea Liferock (dry rock) for me, all the way. Definitely glad there are lots of right ways to do a reef tank!! 🤗 

 

And I would like to reiterate for the original poster that the rock she got is good, she does not need to swap it out... she already built her scape and everything. So I feel like it might be beneficial to narrow it down to focus on advice for someone who already has dry rock. You guys saw she said she mentioned she is disabled, has family in the hospital, and is getting stressed out... getting a lot of extraneous info can be overwhelming. 

[Tamberav]

My first rock ever before Indo closed was the best live rock I have seen. It was full of abolonies and skeltor? Shrimps and hitchiker corals...one I still don't know the ID of. It had macroalgae species on it that I have not seen in circulation for years. It wasn't 'boat rock' but some premium stuff kept alive from Tonga or Indo or whatever. 

 

That tank was full of wonders and discoveries and nothing was ever on that rock that caused any sort of problems. It felt like a real ecosystem. Its too bad I didn't have more money or experience then to know what I had was special and about to vanish from collection.

 

Not that it is good to destroy real reefs for rock. It isn't but damn that was some cool sh*t.

 

Just FYI most of my rock started dry cuz its cheaper... 😛 Dry is fine to use....just don't drop a finicky fish in for awhile... The kind that need to graze on worms and dusters and sponges to be healthy.

[mcarroll]

6 hours ago, Seadragon said:

In my opinion, those that really push hard for Ammonia and Rotten Meat do not like the idea of adding fish immediately after adding Nitrifying bacteria.

I can't disagree...I've read the same in lots of threads.

 

The catch is the part of your quote that I added bold to.  (And logically you'd start with the smallest organisms available.  Not necessarily fish...that's just an internet meme.)

 

The rush begins when reaching for the bottle -- that has always been the whole point of the bottled products.  And it's an understandable point -- it can take a month and a half for a cycle to complete naturally.

 

However, it was only possible to shorten the cycle with a bacterial product, not eliminate it, until the special formulations like Bio-Spira came out -- i.e. from the 1950's through the early 2000's or whatever.

 

And from reading about it nitrifying bacteria are ubiquitous.  I.e. They are found everywhere.  A bottled product was never necessary.

 

Even if your rock were sterile to begin with, assuming you are a healthy person it would almost certainly be inoculated just by you handling it.  (If your hands are freakishly clean, then pet your dog first and then handle your rock.  Done.  Not good for your skin to be that clean anyway!)

 

Moe's "The Marine Aquarium Reference: Systems and Invertebrates" covers this topic specifically and completely, BTW, starting on page 182 under the sub-heading of "Seeding Nitrifying Bacteria".

 

That section on page 182 follows a nice combination graph on page 180 (Figure 20) that illustrates the predictable, ongoing levels of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and all the various bacteria that are involved in the processing in a typical establishment of a biofilter in a marine tank.

 

Excellent info for anyone getting into the hobby...and enough info to navigate a tank cycle without losing any critters.

 

Moe's books are recommended reading for 100% of reefers out there.....even in 2020.  

 

This is the one I'm reading the info from for this post:

 

5 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Not that it is good to destroy real reefs for rock.

I'm jealous of that rock you described!!

 

The sources of live rock is another topic that's handled pretty well in the Moe book I mentioned.  (Have you seen any of the youtubes that have Walt Smith talking about this issue?)

 

At least as far as I know transporting rock from there to here (to reduce demand) is the only thing that's banned - not the local collection of rock for local uses. 

 

Live rock and fossil rock are both used for industrial purposes in their home countries, for what it's worth.  (As a source of lime for septic tanks, cement making, et al.  It's a long list...especially here in N. America.) 

 

So if reefs were being destroyed for rock, they probably still are.

 

But again, I'm not so sure about that as the source of "most" live rock.  

 

Somewhere I read that most natural reefs only live from a few to several years or so before being ripped up/destroyed by things like storms.   

 

This -- former reefs -- is supposedly the source of "most" live rock. 

 

This is why live rock is considered a sustainable, renewable natural resource. 

 

Mined fossil rock is cheap and local to us, which are good things -- but it is not renewable, which is kind of on the bad side. 

 

Nothing is re-growing that mined rock -- once it's gone it's gone. 

 

But living reefs spread, grow, and then pass on, continuously creating "former reefs".

 

What we hope, from my understanding, is that there was no over-harvesting (and no reef-destruction) and that the ban was an understandable over-reaction by legitimately concerned citizens of the countries involved -- or if there was over-harvesting, that it can successfully be curtailed to the proper degree -- and that some degree of shipments can continue at some point in the future.  Only folks on the ground there in the tropics would know the real extent of things or if any of those hopes are justified though.  I really have no idea - I'm certainly not holding my breath while I wait for shipments to continue.  🤷‍♂️

 

Until shipments resume, we'd be best off supporting the people here in North America that are aquaculturing real live rock for our market.

 

And conversely, at least until the process of succeeding with dead rock is a little more well-defined (beyond just "possible") I also think we'd be best off discouraging its use by newbies whenever possible.  (Experts will do what they will of course....and most newbs already have their tank set up by the time they are asking questions...so saying this doesn't mean much.  Just saying it anyway.)

 

Is Dead Rock "Better"???

Rationalizing dead rock as "better", as some folks do, is specious (superficially plausible, but actually wrong) to begin with. 

 

Eventually you read enough and/or gain enough experience to realize (e.g.) that you actually want bristleworms anyway and can't really avoid them in the long run even if you want to (which you don't).

 

And on a purely practical level that rationalization just isn't useful to a newb that will have all the real downsides of dead rock to live with . 

 

In fact, the rationalization is misleading, since their experience with it is almost guaranteed to be empirically worse than it would have been with live rock.

 

There are many damn-good reasons that the whole hobby transitioned from dead rock to live rock once it became available.  Some books back in the day talked about live rock like it had a magical effect on the biology of the tank. 

 

Dead rock is better than a bag pea-gravel.  But that's about as far as I'll go in a comparison -- it's actually pretty similar overall!

Notably, our hobby doesn't seem to recognize or appreciate the legitimately good aspects of dead rock vs other media like gravel or fake bio-blocks.

 

We only seem to "like" what we imagine dead rock lacks -- cost and pests.  🙄

 

It's not cheaper in the final analysis IF you consider what dead rock lacks and try your best to make up for it.  (And you'll stll fall short of the real McCoy.)

 

Plus pests come into the tank via many sources other than live rock.  Even via the dust in the air...so dead rock is really a bust on that front too.

 

So dead rock may be an option, but it's ultimately more expensive, not immune from pests, and since it's dead it is likely to suffer more and for longer in the ugly phase than a comparable live rock tank. 

 

That's a bad deal for a newb (especially one that's been set up with the opposite info thanks to the internet) and way less exciting or educational than a "real hitchhiker" like some strange snail, crab or worm (or whatever else) would be on live rock.  Actual pests that deserve actual worry are very rare (and still aren't the end of the world when you have them).  Pests certainly are less of a worry than toxins from some corals or fish we keep on a routine basis and regularly suggest to beginners.  Nobody has ever been in mortal danger (or even needed a hospital run) from a hair algae bloom or bristleworm sighting.  😉

 

7 hours ago, Tired said:

Great for the basics that don't change, but not so good for the most up-to-date information on equipment and tricky corals.

Perfect explanation why every newb needs to read a book or two (at least).   

 

Every newb needs those "basics that don't change".

 

Without the basics, the rest ("up-to-date information on equipment and tricky corals") is worthless information to a newb, or even harmful.

 

This is why brand new tanks that are setup with dead rock, and massive filtration on Day One left and right -- and why those tanks are generating dino blooms left and right.   

 

Lack of basics combined with "up to date info" from the intarwebs.

 

Next logical move after dino's bloom, based on "up to date info", is apparently eradication with peroxide, bleach or any number of other "up to date products".  Eek!

 

Next move after eradication fails is a tank reboot (which will fail too) or an exit from the hobby.

 

Can't tell you how many times I've seen those steps repeated.....A LOT.   

 

new tank  > dead rock > over filtration > dinos > nuke tank > reboot | leave hobby

 

I'm guessing that some of the videos or facebook groups that newbs are "learning" from must say to start a tank that way (dead rock and all the filtration you can afford?)....otherwise I don't see how so many people could all wreck tanks in more or less the same way like that.  It's hard to get folks to sing the same tune even when they all have the sheet music....don't see any other way.

 

Wherever that info is from, they certainly didn't learn it from reading books!

[Seadragon]

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Even if your rock were sterile to begin with, assuming you are a healthy person it would almost certainly be inoculated just by you handling it.  (If your hands are freakishly clean, then pet your dog first and then handle your rock.  Done.  Not good for your skin to be that clean anyway!)

Now you’re making me feel bad.  My routine is to wear gloves, rinse off the dry rock since there’s so many dust particles on it that will easily cloud the water, and then place the dry rock into the tank.  My goal is to prevent contamination to the tank from foreign substances.  As for seeding the bacteria, that is why I use BIO-Spira among other things.

 

I’ve done the whole cycle a tank without seeding first a long time ago and that’s something I’ll never go back to due to the time wasted when there’s better and more modern methods now.  I wonder if having dirty hands is more of a liability.  The bacteria that is needed is found everywhere and doesn’t need dirty hands to start.

[Tired]

Sterile tanks will usually manage to eventually seed themselves, but I have seen a couple of people on different forums who are reasonably doing the cycle right, but never get it to work. Mostly people who've had the LFS tell them to put a dead shrimp in there to cycle. It's not ideal, but reasonably it should work, except that every now and then it doesn't until they deliberately add bacteria. That was on freshwater forums, and I now rather wonder if they were in the middle of a desert or a big city or something. I'd also be curious to known exactly what bacteria we're looking for, and if there are different species. There must be, right, across the world? And I can't imagine the saltwater and freshwater ones are the same. 

[Seadragon]

5 minutes ago, Tired said:

I'd also be curious to known exactly what bacteria we're looking for, and if there are different species.

I did an experiment a few years ago with different freshwater bacteria starters from several different brand names.  Without getting into the details too much, after much research, I found out that 2 products in general worked very well for both me and others, while all the other brands did not work that well or according to their packaging, required constant upkeep (which to me sounds like they want a constant payment for something that isn’t permanent).

 

So, all bacteria starters are not the same and some have different strands of bacteria.  The ones that worked extremely well had some sort of patent on their formula from what I read.

[banasophia]

24 minutes ago, Tired said:

I'd also be curious to known exactly what bacteria we're looking for, and if there are different species. There must be, right, across the world? And I can't imagine the saltwater and freshwater ones are the same. 

You might want to watch this, very informative. Dr. Tim has a PhD in this stuff. 
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/macna-2019-dr-tim-hovanec/

 

[Clown79]

There are many ways to set up a reef system. 

 

My first tank yrs ago I used liverock and tufta rock from my FW system😱

 

The tank cycled in 7 days, I added nothing. In those days that's just how we set up tanks.

 

The biodiversity from the liverock was amazing and it seeded the tufta in no time. My tank was full of coralline in a few months(it was completely purple...kinda a pain to keep it in check. Lol 

 

The only "bad" hitchhiker I got was a pistol shrimp and I think it came in on a coral rock because frags those days didn't exist.

 

That tank ran so easily and I had no issues. No diatoms, gha, cyano- nothing.

 

Now that good liverock is very hard if not impossible to get we have had to change our methods as hobbyists.

 

I now have used a combo of caribsea liferock- which is great dry rock and liverock.

 

I myself have never done ammonia or bacteria dosing. I have used the food method before and the one time I did, I had the most issues with algae's.

 

So over the years I have set up 7 plus reef systems and each one had different methods of cycling and different experiences with all of them.

[Tamberav]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

There are many ways to set up a reef system. 

 

My first tank yrs ago I used liverock and tufta rock from my FW system😱

 

The tank cycled in 7 days, I added nothing. In those days that's just how we set up tanks.

 

The biodiversity from the liverock was amazing and it seeded the tufta in no time. My tank was full of coralline in a few months(it was completely purple...kinda a pain to keep it in check. Lol 

 

The only "bad" hitchhiker I got was a pistol shrimp and I think it came in on a coral rock because frags those days didn't exist.

 

That tank ran so easily and I had no issues. No diatoms, gha, cyano- nothing.

 

Now that good liverock is very hard if not impossible to get we have had to change our methods as hobbyists.

 

I now have used a combo of caribsea liferock- which is great dry rock and liverock.

 

I myself have never done ammonia or bacteria dosing. I have used the food method before and the one time I did, I had the most issues with algae's.

 

So over the years I have set up 7 plus reef systems and each one had different methods of cycling and different experiences with all of them.

Have to agree...when I had good live rock. Problems...like pest algae and dino were basically nonexistent. My guess is the diversity was so high that nothing ever took over to become a problem. 

 

I swear with the common use of dry now is when I started seeing the tons of dino threads and so on. Ofc good live rock isn't really a thing anymore so it's not like people have a choice.

 

@karen nation I promise we are pretty nice here, but most of us like to debate lol I guess that is how we learn. Sorry to muck up your thread. I hope your family is on the mend. 

 

 

 

 

[xthunt]

Dry rock and dry sand - never had an issue putting in the biospira and first fish at the same time - as far as the nitrogen cycle goes. 

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Seadragon said:

The bacteria that is needed is found everywhere

This was my point exactly!  👍  All it takes is hands that aren't "freakishly clean" as I put it earlier. 😉

 

Doesn't mean you can't use a product, it just means that there's a way (three or four ways, in fact...maybe more) that works just fine without a product -- a product isn't necessary -- so nobody should be thinking that it's a requirement.

 

Also, IMO there's little to gain from rushing in most circumstances. 

 

It's a hobby after all, so what justification could someone have for selecting a hobby that makes them feel like there's a need to rush like it was their job and they were late to work???  Doesn't that seem a little crazy?  Pick something relaxing!!! 🎐 😆 Things that can be learned from taking one's time that would be completely missed otherwise.

 

IMO the startup process is integral to reefing (and to aquarium keeping in general). 

 

Someone sincerely considering that cycle time as a waste makes me feel like another hobby that doesn't require the same levels of patience could be a better fit.  (The startup phase isn't the only thing that requires or benefits from your patience.)  The desire to skip steps or take shortcuts is not a long-term advantage in this hobby, so starting with skips and shortcuts isn't the best way to start.  And there are tons of other cool hobbies!!!

 

Same disclaimer as always in this kind of discussion:  we're talking about guidance for newbies.  If you're an expert and you already understand everything that's happening, then do as you please.  We're not talking to you OR about you with this info.  😉👍

 

2 hours ago, Tired said:

I'd also be curious to known exactly what bacteria we're looking for, and if there are different species.

Check out that book reference I put in a few posts back for one of Martin Moe's books.....he talks about all the species involved and even has a chart I mentioned that illustrates their development timeline along with the other parameters.   

 

If cost is an issue, like I said, you can probably google for a PDF of the book because it's so old. 

 

But consider buying a copy.....they can be had for as little as $5.  (It's worth the brand-new price IMO.....<$40)

 

 

[Seadragon]

35 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

It's a hobby after all, so what justification could someone have for selecting a hobby that makes them feel like there's a need to rush like it was their job and they were late to work???  Doesn't that seem a little crazy?  Pick something relaxing!!! 🎐 😆 Things that can be learned from taking one's time that would be completely missed otherwise.

 

I think there are many similarities between a brand new hobbyist to saltwater tanks and a brand new parent with their first child.  There is an excitement for something new in both cases.  A brand new hobbyist is likely to buy all sorts of products and equipment that is not really needed (and sometimes, not even recommended!).  Some new parents will buy every baby gadget as well and read up on the latest parenting articles to make sure that their child is a genius even before they are born (turn on the Baby Mozart!).  In both worlds, the new hobbyist and the new parent might feel overwhelmed with so many choices and with so many things going on that they do not yet understand.  Sometimes bad decisions and mistakes are being made and things are rushed to try to correct them.

 

And then comes the veteran hobbyist that is on their 10th tank as well as the parent with their 5th child.  Taking their time is part of the pleasure.  They've been there and done that.  They will only buy what they deem is most important for their tank, none of that other nonsense crap.  As for the parent, that 5th child will get the hand-me-downs and the leftover clothes that the older siblings can no longer wear.  Everything is relaxing because it has been done many times already and there aren't many surprises left.