Someone please help

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

I didn’t know where to post this but I am in a hurry.

i woke up this morning to find one clown dead and the other gasping for air. The goby has not been seen and I presume he has died as well :-(.

all my corals and inverts with urchin all look fine.

ive transferred the remaining clown to a makeshift QT bin but I don’t expect him to make it.

i havent touched the tank in the past day, and the day before that I had to stick my hand in to move something.

all parameters are testing fine from what I can see and temperature is still good

i was going to do a 75% water change

but any ideas as to what happened? And how can I go about fixing it

 

thank you so much

[Humblefish]

When was the last time you added a new fish or anything wet (coral, invert) for that matter??

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

2 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

When was the last time you added a new fish or anything wet (coral, invert) for that matter??

I added Xenia early last week

the fish have been in there a year

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

Doing the water change now but it takes so damn long for the water to heat up

[Humblefish]

1 hour ago, IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut said:

I added Xenia early last week

the fish have been in there a year

Did the Xenia come on a little piece of rock? It is possible for parasite tomonts to encyst upon any hard surface. Any obvious physical symptoms (e.g. white dots or spots) on the surviving clownfish??

[banasophia]

Well you already have the best possible person @Humblefish helping, so not sure I can help much more, but... Pictures? Did you accidentally leave your pump off overnight? What’s the tank temp?

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

19 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

Did the Xenia come on a little piece of rock? It is possible for parasite tomonts to encyst upon any hard surface. Any obvious physical symptoms (e.g. white dots or spots) on the surviving clownfish??

It did come on a rock. Fish were in the (display reef) tank and didn’t show signs of sickness. No signs of ich/velvet. Just heavy breathing from the clown this morning. Even if a parasite, it’s be strange that they all died at the same time?? And not staggered. Even the already-dead clown was hardly eaten by crabs/worms, so I guess it was recent.
 

 

11 minutes ago, banasophia said:

Well you already have the best possible person @Humblefish helping, so not sure I can help much more, but... Pictures? Did you accidentally leave your pump off overnight? What’s the tank temp?

Pumps were on when I went to bed. Pumps were on when I woke up. 78 F

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

I guess at this point I am asking what I can do to make sure everything stays happy that’s remaining 😞 like I said, I’m doing a ~75% water change

should I do another one in a few days?

[Humblefish]

49 minutes ago, IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut said:

It did come on a rock. Fish were in the (display reef) tank and didn’t show signs of sickness. No signs of ich/velvet. Just heavy breathing from the clown this morning. Even if a parasite, it’s be strange that they all died at the same time?? And not staggered. Even the already-dead clown was hardly eaten by crabs/worms, so I guess it was recent.

When attacking fish with thick slime coats (clownfish), Velvet dinospores will often invade the gills first (easier to penetrate). Excess mucous starts to build up in the gills (immune response) and if too much mucous builds up the fish will die due to asphyxiation. This is how velvet kills quickly, without ever seeing symptoms (white spots) on the body. Also, if some of your fish were previously exposed to sublethal concentrations of velvet they may show almost no signs at all since their immune system(s) have acquired immunity.

 

I'm not 100% saying you have velvet in your tank, but it does line up with the known life cycle if you inadvertently added a rock with velvet tomonts about a week ago. I am ruling out toxins in your water because you say corals/inverts are looking fine; only fish seem to be affected. Low oxygen is another possibility, but there would have to be a sudden change (e.g. pump failure, bacterial bloom) for this to occur.

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

2 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

When attacking fish with thick slime coats (clownfish), Velvet dinospores will often invade the gills first (easier to penetrate). Excess mucous starts to build up in the gills (immune response) and if too much mucous builds up the fish will die due to asphyxiation. This is how velvet kills quickly, without ever seeing symptoms (white spots) on the body. Also, if some of your fish were previously exposed to sublethal concentrations of velvet they may show almost no signs at all since their immune system(s) have acquired immunity.

 

I'm not 100% saying you have velvet in your tank, but it does line up with the known life cycle if you inadvertently added a rock with velvet tomonts about a week ago. I am ruling out toxins in your water because you say corals/inverts are looking fine; only fish seem to be affected. Low oxygen is another possibility, but there would have to be a sudden change (e.g. pump failure, bacterial bloom) for this to occur.

I’ve never dealt with velvet so I will have to do some research. Horrible if this sudden death is what happens though. Thank you so much for offering what you know. This morning was really a panic.

 

AND!! I just finished the water change and I see the goby sticking his head out! He hasn’t come fully out but he doesn’t seem to be suffering in any way...

the mystery continues.

the strangest thing..

[Humblefish]

Here is my write-up on velvet to get you started:

 

[Humblefish]

More info regarding Marine Velvet Disease can be found here: http://agrilife.org/fisheries/files/2013/09/SRAC-Publication-No.-4705-Amyloodinium-ocellatum-an-Important-Parasite-of-Cultured-Marine-Fish.pdf

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

@Humblefish these are fantastic, thank you so much. so far, the goby is still alive. i can't see any white spots but i still haven't really been able to get a good look. we'll see what the night brings 😞

thanks to everyone again.

[mcarroll]

Background

@IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut You say the fish have been in there for a year.  If they were in there and un-stressed for a year, they really shouldn't be very susceptible to any minor threat -- their immune system routinely deals with those kinds of things. 

 

If any minor threat could take out a fish, the sea would have no fish in it because they bump against pests and pathogens continuously there. 

 

The mortality problems come either when the fish are stressed, which really messes with their immune system (just like with us) or when they're locked in a box with an infected fish.  an infected fish is both a major pathogen threat and also a stress since the infected fish usually has behavior issues.

 

Fish + Examination

What have the fish been like since you've had them?  Any issues at all?  Any big changes along the way?  What have you been feeding them?  Can you post a full tank picture so we can see their habitat?

 

Getting a look at the dead fish's gills would be proof of what Humble is talking about and a good idea....otherwise you're guessing.  You can also do an examination on the living fish for the same thing. 

 

There are guides out there for doing an exam on living or dead fish.  Humble can probably even walk you through it or at least link some guides.  If not Google and YouTube will.

 

Disease Vectors

A Xenia giving your fish dino's (aka velvet) is hypothetically possible. But it's not very likely AND it's not actually a source of infection -- which are both important. 

 

An active infection is what generates the overwhelming number of tomonts (pressure on the immune system) that would be able to defeat a fish's immune system.   

 

A frag or frag plug is only a potential carrier of a very finite number of spores.  Very different from an infected fish living in the tank.

 

If you find that this frag plug (or something else) was able to infect and kill a fish, I'd say the fish was already very compromised beforehand.  (Hence the fish questions I asked.)

 

Without evidence you should make no assumptions on any of this IMO. 

 

We have to guess and make assumptions because we aren't there...but you should get proof when possible.  Post pics from the exam if possible too.

 

If you find proof, then you already know what comes next.  👍

 

Toxin

Likewise, I wouldn't assume that it's not a toxin of some kind from when your hands were in the tank last (or from something else).....if you aren't running activated carbon, I would start now. 

 

Run a full dose according to the instructions. 

 

Running a Poly-Filter (brand) could be a little better than carbon as it could actually indicate what toxin was found.  (It'll work about like activated carbon and just turn brown/black if there's no toxin.)

 

Precautions

If you do suspect some kind of pathogen but don't find proof, consider running a UV filter on the display tank until the worry has passed.  It will control numbers of any pest (and algae) to allow your fish's immune systems to handle the leftovers.

 

If it has variable settings/you control the flow, it should be run at its most lethal (slowest flow) setting so it can kill things like dino's.

 

You can also consider a tank-safe treatment like the ones from Ruby Reef....similar action to a UV filter, but complimentary so could be run at the same time.

[mcarroll]

On 12/22/2019 at 1:34 PM, IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut said:

Doing the water change now but it takes so damn long for the water to heat up

Just an aside, not related to the fish.....but there's usually no need to pre-heat your water change water unless it's REALLY cold, like from being kept in a garage in the winter.

 

If it's household temperature, it should be fine.  (I do large 50% water changes like this and have never seen any reaction that didn't seem positive. I even keep my water in the basement so it's a little cooler than the rest of the house.)

 

That said, I'd be cautious about doing anything too extreme on this tank....at least while you're still investigating.  If you haven't done a huge water change before, now might not be the time to start.  (A regular water change shouldn't be an issue tho.)

[banasophia]

18 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Just an aside, not related to the fish.....but there's usually no need to pre-heat your water change water unless it's REALLY cold, like from being kept in a garage in the winter.

 

If it's household temperature, it should be fine.  (I do large 50% water changes like this and have never seen any reaction that didn't seem positive. I even keep my water in the basement so it's a little cooler than the rest of the house.)

I think that this may depend on the brand of salt... I just started using Tropic Marin and noted that they specifically say to bring the water up to the correct temp before adding the salt.
 

In addition, I do fairly large water changes, and if I don’t bring the temp up first, my tank temp drops quite low, so it seems like a good practice to bring the temp up first to decrease stress on tank inhabitants. 

 

[mcarroll]

The OP was in a hurry in what they felt was kind of an emergency situation and they were waiting for something that didn't really need to be waited on (more than likely...waiting on an answer).

 

You'll note that I didn't just say anything like use cold water no matter what.   

 

You'll also notice that TM has no idea what temperature your raw water is, so it make good sense from their perspective to say that.

 

I've extensively used Tropic Marin, TM Pro Reef, Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals the way I described for 10-11 years.  In case you're wondering/concerned about side-effects, there have been none.

  

I'd suggest that you keep doing whatever is currently working for you though.  Unless you're having a problem, don't change just because of something you read in a post in someone else's thread.  👍

[banasophia]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

The OP was in a hurry in what they felt was kind of an emergency situation and they were waiting for something that didn't really need to be waited on (more than likely...waiting on an answer).

 

You'll note that I didn't just say anything like use cold water no matter what.   

 

You'll also notice that TM has no idea what temperature your raw water is, so it make good sense from their perspective to say that.

 

I've extensively used Tropic Marin, TM Pro Reef, Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals the way I described for 10-11 years.  In case you're wondering/concerned about side-effects, there have been none.

  

I'd suggest that you keep doing whatever is currently working for you though.  Unless you're having a problem, don't change just because of something you read in a post in someone else's thread.  👍

Right, I wasn’t saying I was planning on changing my practice... I was offering my perspective on the subject and pointing out the manufacturers instructions for this specific salt.
 

I generally prefer to follow manufacturer instructions, and also like to avoid abrupt temperature fluctuations in my tank if I can. If there was an emergency requiring an urgent water change I would weigh the variables/pros/cons in the situation and try to make the best decision without rushing it and making a move that could make things even worse.
 

And personally I would be worried about doing a 75% water change to save a stressed/sick fish using water that was just filtered or sitting in a cold room without bringing the temp up some. 

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

I make sure to match the temperature

[banasophia]

12 minutes ago, IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut said:

I make sure to match the temperature

How are things going? Would love to hear an update. 

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

3 minutes ago, banasophia said:

How are things going? Would love to hear an update. 

I have no idea what happened. The goby is still alive and well. Corals are doing .. ok? But I got a little GHA outbreak (new light), but I'm dealing with it. Hermit crab molted. Everything's fine. Really no idea at all

[Seadragon]

As you can see, it can be difficult to narrow down the exact cause of death.  Although, I do like the prevention steps that @mcarroll mentioned.  It prevents a huge host of potential threats and I started doing two of these things myself now for my tanks and had only positive results.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Toxin

Likewise, I wouldn't assume that it's not a toxin of some kind from when your hands were in the tank last (or from something else).....if you aren't running activated carbon, I would start now. 

 

Run a full dose according to the instructions. 

 

Running a Poly-Filter (brand) could be a little better than carbon as it could actually indicate what toxin was found.  (It'll work about like activated carbon and just turn brown/black if there's no toxin.)

 

Precautions

If you do suspect some kind of pathogen but don't find proof, consider running a UV filter on the display tank until the worry has passed.  It will control numbers of any pest (and algae) to allow your fish's immune systems to handle the leftovers.

 

If it has variable settings/you control the flow, it should be run at its most lethal (slowest flow) setting so it can kill things like dino's.

 

I like UV Sterilizers, not only did it get rid of my algae bloom, but it can help kill and control free flowing bacteria, yeast, molds and other pathogens.  "Ultraviolet germicidal irradiation is a disinfection method that uses short-wavelength ultraviolet (UVC) light to kill or inactive microorganisms.  UV light rays are effective in controlling free flowing bacteria, yeast, molds and other pathogens, in turn clearing up green water or cloudiness without any chemicals."  I also set the rate of flow to a lower setting to maximize it's effectiveness and now that my tank is super clear, I may put it on a timer as well to conserve the light otherwise it normally needs to be replaced every 6 months for the type that I purchased.

 

And I started using Activated Carbon Media Pads.  "This filter pad infuses active carbon into the original filter pad. The premium activated carbon effectively removes discoloration, odor, pollutants, and harmful chemicals while the poly-fiber pad traps large particulate matter and other wastes."  Although I got it to remove odor and discoloration, the removal of pollutants and harmful chemicals is priceless.

 

Small price to pay to save countless lives in the future.

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

Always running activated carbon!