Ich or lymphocystis

[Candymancan]

Well i know what strain im dealing with its from the same store i got ich from before and eliminated with hypo.  You dont think 30 days is too little ?. I did nearly 2 months before although it start affecting fish.  

 

Its already starting to iritate my green chromis.  Lost 2 outa 13 so far. Im now 10 days in. So ill just keep pushing .   Day 2 on TTM and i just finished bleaching the 20g qt for 24hrs. Bleached the rocks. Sand. Tossed the hob in all my nets. And i put the top in too lol.  I read it takes 24hrs of bleach to kill ich ecrusted tomonts.   

 

I did however read an thread you and others posted in a few years ago and you did mention that after copper or what not for 7-10 days you could theoreticly bleach everything to kill tomonts and ich should be gone.  Since ich stays on a fish for only 7-10 days you can bleach everything else to kill off the encrusted ich on the sand or what not and it should be done.  

 

I also read the entire writeup or pdf of the combined notes of all research papers. The one where you must go fallow for 72 or was it 76 days ?  To me that makes no sense. Because if people do copper for 2-4 weeks and are ich free.  Why would the tank need to go fallow for 10 weeks.  Since copper doesnt kill the encrusted tomont cysts only the free floating, theoretically you should do copper or hypo for 72 days as well.  Ive always thought there was odd discrepency on all this.

 

Its like if i did cupramine in my main tank or hypo in my main tank for 30days.  Why do my corals need to be fallow for 72 days if copper or hypo dont kill tomonts.  

 

There are so many people who claim ichs life cycle doesnt speed up with heat.. Yet a published paper by scientists mention that the life cycle does speed up.  It also slows down when the water is cooler.   I think the paper mentioned the life cycle of the parasite only 33% hatched in 20c water after x amount of days and somewhere around 90% hatched in 30c in the same time frame

 

This would mean heat does in fact speed up the life cycle of crypt.  There seems to be a bad general concesus that it doesnt when the published papers state otherwise.  Just like treating ich for 30 days but leaving a tank fallow for 72 makes no sense since treatments dont eliminate the tomonts.  I dunno im confused on all this miss information out there.

 

Decided to raise my tank to 84f, if a published paper says the speed of the life cycle increases with temps then ima be more inclined to believe that then what forum posts state you know what i mean ?  This is the thread im mentioning about all this

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/marine-ich-and-temperature.232825/

[Candymancan]

14 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I think you're talking to someone else since I didn't say any of that, right?

 

You got my point.

 

You got it!  Excellent.

 

Without external stress, they would heal up completely and not continually relapse like they have been on you.

 

I'm not aware of anyone using hypo anymore. 

 

As far as I've read, you can do a freshwater dip and that change in salinity is enough of a shock to parasites to knock them off the host.

 

Hypo does almost nothing at all.   

 

It's unequivocally a lot of stress net-catching fish though....so whatever you do it for should be more worth it than that IMO.

 

A supporting journal article about hypo and Ich with lots of other good and relevant details too:

http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/1/d001p019.pdf

 

 

Youre 100% 10000% wrong on hyposalinity.  Tons of people do ot. Their an entire reef forum dedicated to hyposalinity its all those people do. And i know plenty of local fish stores that combine hypo with copper at half doses.

 

Ive done hypo before in the main tank and i always do it in my qt.. when i had ich nearly a year ago in my main tank i moved my corals like i am doing now and did hypo.. I did it for 2 months in my main tank and ich never came back.  Ive also done QT of over 10 different species/genus of tangs as well as 7 different kinds of dwarf angels and countless other species like clowns damsels and so forth and they all were ich free when done.  .  Once the ich fell off the fish in 3-7 days it never came back when in hyposalinity. To where in normal salinity it kept coming back in a near daily or every other day occurance.   After a minimum of 4-6 weeks of hypo.  When raising salinity back up ich was still gone.

 

Where are you getting this information that hyposalinity doesnt work ?  Are you simply repeating a post you read about a paper published in china (or was it some other asian country ? ) mentioning a resistant strain of ich over there.. Because that published paper from 2002 seems to have spread alot of fear and missinformation.  And like the plague people keep posting about resistant strains from this paper almost like its factual about every strain of ich now.

 

Lots of people who do hypo dont do it properly either. They dont adjust the refractometers properly with distilled or rodi they dont drop the salinity low enough.  Old posts online have hypo at 1.013-1.011 modern day hypo is 1.007.  

 

I have 9 tangs currently spread in my 3 tanks that have fish in em.  2 fox faces. , 11 green chromis, 6 talbot damsels 4 blue damsel, a velvet damsel, 4 clowns, bi color angel, coral beauty, signapore angelfish, rusty angel.   

 

My tangs are a powder brown, powder blue, two yellow tangs, a blue hippo, sailfin, blond naso, tomini, yellow eye kole tang.   All of them i got from my local petco(yes petco my local stores are terrible, overpriced and dont qt so why buy from a local store that doesnt qt but wants 30% more over petco lol).. all of them were riddled with ich.  All of them went through a minimum 4-6 weeks in hypo salinity in qt.  And not one of them ever had ich return.   And as mentioned my main tank has been in hypo once and ich never returned for 10-11 months even with my (cramped stressfull or aggressive) tank as you called it.   Ich only showed up 2 weeks ago  (recently hense the thread) after i bought 13 hermits and i didnt have them in qt.  I basically had them in a tub for 3 days and tossed them in and then ich starting showing up on my powder brown tang which are known as canaries because they always get ich and always get it first.   I just wasnt sure if it was ich or lympho because i know i eliminated it but my own dumbass brought it back from the hermits.  

 

Sorry i know i always write alot.  But youre so wrong on hyposalinity.  I feel like youre trying to somehow convince me ? that hypo doesnt work when i infact have been doing it for years on new fish i buy(that handle hypo of course) and ive always had 100% success with it..   can you explain to me when i went to hypo in my main tank (right now i mean), how all my fish stopped showing ich once the cysts fell off in 3 days, its been 10 days now, and remember how in normal salinity it went from suspecting lymphocysts to full blown ich on every fish.

 

 I also have my powder blue tang in here with my powder brown.  The blue is in a large critter container though (so they dont kill eachother).. but they fight 24.7 non stop.  If hypo didnt work these two guys would be riddled with hundreds of cysts by now being powder blue and brown tangs and also fighting all day lol yea recipe for a ich explosion.

 

  I plan to move the powder brown to the 60g and keep the blue in the 135 thats why i got em both together atm since the 60g is housing my corals and has to be fishless. 

 

Also fresh water dipping does not knock off cysts.  It kills free floating parasites ( like hypo) and knocks off flukes .  I sware (no offense just remind me of someone lol) you sound like the guy who works in my local petco.  Who tells people to fw dip the marine fish which will remove all parasites such as ich he says lol.   Thats 100% not factual.

[Humblefish]

@Candymancan In the vast majority of studies, Ich completes it's entire lifecycle in 30 days or less. Which is why 30 days of copper, hypo. etc. works the vast majority of the time. This illustrates what I mean:

 

 

However, there are always exceptions. As you can see from above, "Burgess and Matthews 1994a" experimented on a group of tomonts which took 35 days to release all their theronts (free swimmers). There is also the infamous 72 day study (Colorni and Burgess, 1997) where it took up to 72 days for all the theronts to excyst. So, the short answer is 30 days of QT (and even fallow) will work in most cases; but there are always exceptions to every rule.

 

Now, if you look above the one thing that has always been consistent is the amount of time the trophont spends feeding on the fish (before dropping off.) In every case, the longest period has always been 7 days. So, IMO once copper (or Chloroquine) has been raised to therapeutic a 10-14 day countdown can begin. (In theory 7 days should be sufficient, but I always like to build a buffer in.) The presence of therapeutic copper/Chloroquine is what shields your fish from reinfection, so after 7 days in that the fish should be "clean" and can be transferred to another QT. Make sense??

[Humblefish]

The reason I am saying to go a full 30 days in hypo is because I am less confident in it's ability to zap theronts than copper/Chloroquine. Just my opinion, of course. In theory, 10-14 days in hypo and then a transfer should work as well as copper/Chloroquine.

[mcarroll]

10 hours ago, Candymancan said:

Youre 100% 10000% wrong on hyposalinity.

At least we're staying level headed and not exaggerating.  🙄

 

I'm not going to reiterate what was in the paper I linked for you....they explained hypo- and hyper-salinity as well as it needs to be explained IMO.

 

How many more fish have you lost so far since moving them all to hypo/observation?

[Candymancan]

On 1/9/2020 at 12:30 PM, mcarroll said:

At least we're staying level headed and not exaggerating.  🙄

 

I'm not going to reiterate what was in the paper I linked for you....they explained hypo- and hyper-salinity as well as it needs to be explained IMO.

 

How many more fish have you lost so far since moving them all to hypo/observation?

None.. what do you mean how many (more) fish.  I havent lost any but a single green chromis outa 13, a blue damsel is missing scales but that might be due to fighting im not positive.  1 chromis is missing but he might be hiding i havent seen a body.  I have none in observation right now those are in tank transfer. The only fish affected by hypo(asside from the ones in tsnk transfer) are the chromis but ive had em handle it in the past just fine.. but not long term like say tangs. 

 

Whos exaggurating.  Because im sure not.. Youre making claims that hypo doesnt work (at all).. Claims youre wrong on, i dont give two hoots what one published paper says on that specific strain of ich they had..  The ich ive encounted over the years has always been wiped out by hyposalinity easily.

 

This is my update video on youtube of my progress. Excuse my french in referencing you on my video.  Follow my progress if you want. In 3 weeks i should be done with everything. And in 4 weeks the corals will be back in.  If ich survived. Ill see it on the powder blue tang first and ill post an update and admit i was wrong.  But until then im going with what has worked for me dozens and dozens of times when i qt fish.

 

Also yes i know a 5g bucket is small for those fish i have in tank transfer.. but theyll live for 13 days.. meaning theyll get over being cramped.   I dont have the room nore huge tanks nore salt to do transfer on a large scale so i gatta work with what i have, today will be day 6. Theyre all still eating and doing fine (0 signs of ich) so they can tough it out for another 6 to 7 days

 

 

[Candymancan]

On 1/9/2020 at 12:08 PM, Humblefish said:

@Candymancan In the vast majority of studies, Ich completes it's entire lifecycle in 30 days or less. Which is why 30 days of copper, hypo. etc. works the vast majority of the time. This illustrates what I mean:

 

 

However, there are always exceptions. As you can see from above, "Burgess and Matthews 1994a" experimented on a group of tomonts which took 35 days to release all their theronts (free swimmers). There is also the infamous 72 day study (Colorni and Burgess, 1997) where it took up to 72 days for all the theronts to excyst. So, the short answer is 30 days of QT (and even fallow) will work in most cases; but there are always exceptions to every rule.

 

Now, if you look above the one thing that has always been consistent is the amount of time the trophont spends feeding on the fish (before dropping off.) In every case, the longest period has always been 7 days. So, IMO once copper (or Chloroquine) has been raised to therapeutic a 10-14 day countdown can begin. (In theory 7 days should be sufficient, but I always like to build a buffer in.) The presence of therapeutic copper/Chloroquine is what shields your fish from reinfection, so after 7 days in that the fish should be "clean" and can be transferred to another QT. Make sense??

 

Yea ill do 30 plus another week to be sure.  And ill probly wait 2 extra weeks before i put the corals in to give the fish time to adjust back up to nornal salinity..  this is basically what i did 11 months ago when i wiped out ich with hypo. Cept i did it for 2 months and i thought 2 months was kinda pushing it on the fish. 

 

My tank temps are also 30c or 85-86f.  Seems raising temps on (some) of these publishes papers does speed up the life cycle.  85 or 86 wont hurt these fish anyway they pretty much live in those temps in the wild

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Candymancan said:

Excuse my french in referencing you on my video.

You'll have to give me a shortcut to the time on the vid.

[Candymancan]

 

Anyway.  Tank transfer is done well was done 3 days ago.   Unfortunatly even though the bleached tank has had 3 weeks nearly to cycle i still dont seem to have a cycle.  Im fighting ammonia in the tank.  Its at 4-8ppm and water changes only do so much.. prime helps but im debating on putting a large rock from my tank in hypo into this tank to remove the ammonia.

 

But the maintank has been in hypo for 22 days now.. so there isa small risk of ich still being alive encrusted on the rocks or sand.   So i might bring it back to the fish i just did TTM on.

 

However im wondering if ttm was 100% sucessfull.  I bleach soaked thr tools and buckets for 24hrs before transfering.  And im noticing the flame angel has 3 white cysts.  Its either ich or lympho..  Its just so hard to tell lympho from ich until you observe it for a week or two.

 

Such a pain man.  If its ich ill just have to do copper after all on those 5 fish 

[Humblefish]

Can you post a pic of Flame Angel showing the white cysts?

[Candymancan]

I would but when i left to the store and came home 1 hr later they were no longer on him.  So maybe it was just sand on him.  Or msybe it was ich that fell off..  i guess ill find out if the other fish get it.   In which case i dont think ill do ttm anymore because i dont see how afrer 12 days of ttm with bleaching everything heavily and the bucket for 24 hrs ich could still linger.   

 

Lets just hope it was sand grains..  i have very fine powdery sand in this tank.  

 

Ill post updates